Great canal journeys on now ch 4 from Sweden

[churchward]

Of course we shouldn't generalise too much and everyone's different but I've head many times the tale, "oh she doesn't like steering the boat so I have to do it all". At least sometimes that's got to be because, in the past, he's made it awful for her when she steers, nitpicking, undermining, criticising. When it's been going on for decades, I doubt she's even fully aware of it any more. So they both entrench themselves further and further into their gender roles. That's what I see when I watch Pru & Tim. Age might be a factor, Pru's condition might be a factor. nonetheless, it makes me a little sad.

Have you ever thought that on hearing this "tale" so many times it may actually be true? It is on our case. The thing is you are making a judgement based on your own bias whilst I am saying what is actually true in our case. She will not steer the boat and does not want to. She does drive a car and does that well but just doesn't want to on the boat. So, perhaps when someone who does not drive, says they are not interested in doing so you don't believe them either?

 

We all find our own way. We should be happy to let folk get on with it rather than sit in judgement and make general assumptions that we have no idea are actually true in any one case.

 

We share the operations of the lock and have our system for doing it depending on going up or down or in a flight or not. It works for us. You are assuming again that when someone says that the wife won't steer that the male stays on the boat all the time. This is not true either I get off the boat and we both operate the lock.

Edited March 21, 2016 by churchward

[mrsmelly]

Have you ever thought that on hearing this "tale" so many times it may actually be true? It is on our case. The thing is you are making a judgement based on your own bias whilst I am saying what is actually true in our case. She will not steer the boat and does not want to. She does drive a car and does that well but just doesn't. So, perhaps when someone who does not drive days they are not interested in doing so you don't believe them either?

 

We all find our own way. We should be happy to let folk get on with it rather than sit in judgement and make general assumptions that we have no idea are actually true in any one case.

 

We share the operations of the lock and have our system for doing it depending on going up or down or in a flight or not. It works for us.

 

Greenie.

 

Tim

[ditchcrawler]

 

That's exactly how he drives his boat up and down the Oxford. I've crossed bows with him on a few occasions and whilst you'll get smiles and an excited wave from Pru, all you get from Tim is dogged and deliberate lack of eye contact. Then, when he hits you, he can honestly claim not to have seen you.

Funny he chatted to me while boating in Banbury and last time I saw them Pru was at the helm

 

 

We share the operations of the lock and have our system for doing it depending on going up or down or in a flight or not. It works for us. You are assuming again that when someone says that the wife won't steer that the male stays on the boat all the time. This is not true either I get off the boat and we both operate the lock.

Same

My thoughts are, for what they are worth, are that they had more than a film crew onboard. Tim was often in shot looking straight ahead with 100% concentration, as he had been placed there for the camera. Could he really have navigated across those lakes unassisted.

 

I love the programme. And the relationship between the two. Long may it last.

I wonder how much it cost to hire a boat like that, the small ones are an arm and a leg from what I have found.

Edited March 21, 2016 by ditchcrawler

[Old Son]

It's funny how this thread has not mentioned the beautiful scenery. I think the open lakes are a bit boring but some of the narrow channels were fantastic.

[Guest]

It's funny how this thread has not mentioned the beautiful scenery. I think the open lakes are a bit boring but some of the narrow channels were fantastic.

And the system (what we saw of it) looked very well maintained.

[gazza]

It's funny how this thread has not mentioned the beautiful scenery. I think the open lakes are a bit boring but some of the narrow channels were fantastic.

The country is beautiful and the people friendly often with exceptional English - more than making up for my total lack of Swedish, I've worked out there and we took our Honeymoon there.

 

Mrs Gazza fancies a crack at the Gota when the little un is older. Hire rates look to be fairly reasonable too.

[Dave_P]

 

I've mentioned it before.

 

Jan wasn't confident walking across the lock gates plus a long standing problem with her knees meant she couldn't get the 'purchase' required pull/push the beams sufficiently to get the gates moving and open/closed. We discovered this on the first hire boat holiday we didn't have crew with us.

 

It was one of the things we were glad to have hired before buying for. We knew that would be the way we did things when we bought our own boat.

 

And yes it was unusual - invariably the other boaters operating the locks with me were female if it was a couple or kids/teenagers if it was a family.

Interesting but my point still stands then. Your arrangement had nothing to do with you not liking to steer the boat. I'm still awaiting my first example of that, to match the dozens of women who've given that reason.

[Guest]

Interesting but my point still stands then. Your arrangement had nothing to do with you not liking to steer the boat. I'm still awaiting my first example of that, to match the dozens of women who've given that reason.

I was merely responding to the bit I had highlighted in red.

[tree monkey]

I've met many couples where the man always drives and the woman always does the locks, because she "doesn't like driving". Never yet met a couple who do it the other way round. Funny that.

 

Although, it's how he speaks to her which bothers me most.

How he speaks to her is difficult to truly judge, I watche mum decline through alzimers and also saw dad apparently become less patient with mum, similar in many ways to how Tim and Pru interact.

Also I saw a 55yr relationship become a carers role, I saw dad doing all the housework, cooking, all the work normally divided became his.

I also saw mum becoming more snappy, more impatiant and in many ways dangerous to herself.

In the end dad was cleaning mum putting her to bed dressing her and she had become in many ways a small child again.

Its hard to judge but what I see is a man frustrated and saddened by whats happening to the woman he loves

[jacloc]

I am a woman and I don't like driving the boat, I much prefer doing the locks and getting a good walk in between. I keep saying 'next time I will have a go' but then chicken out, much to the dismay of my husband, who would like a bit of a rest from all the standing still, he does get off to help at locks though, 'can't let me have all the fun jobs'

[Keeping Up]

Interesting, but whatever the reason you've got a professional skipper on a historic boat who leave their fenders down when cruising. If it's such bad practice as many on this forum would have us believe, then one wonders why Juno uses birch branches which need to be left dangling in the water? Perhaps the truth is that cruising with fenders down is not really such bad practice...

I had quite a long chat with the captain about it. Certainly it's the standard practice on all the historic boats on that waterway, but they were regarded as totally sacrificial and on a typical week's trip they start with maybe 100 spares stacked on the front deck; after replacing a few at each lock they finish the trip with most of them used up. How many of us would be happy to lose our plastic or pipe fenders at such a rate?

[Dave_P]

I am a woman and I don't like driving the boat, I much prefer doing the locks and getting a good walk in between. I keep saying 'next time I will have a go' but then chicken out, much to the dismay of my husband, who would like a bit of a rest from all the standing still, he does get off to help at locks though, 'can't let me have all the fun jobs'

Exactly this. It's a very familiar tale. There has to be something underlying it all. I think I've already made my views clear.

 

I've taught a few people to steer my boat. There is a marked difference in how the genders approach it. Men tend to be gung-ho and the results can be highly variable, from the 'natural' who just gets it straight away, to the guy who repeated aims at the bank. Women are, on balance, much more reluctant and cautious about steering. That caution could be a indication on how women approach new challenges in general, but the reluctance? My guess is that women are brought up with the idea that being in charge of a boat is a man's thing and not really for them. It's a pattern which is repeated across many activities and professions, with little basis in a woman's ability to succeed at it. To me it harks back to outdated values about gender roles and shows that, while we've come a long way, we still have a long way to go.

 

I take TreeMonkey's points and have my own experiences of family members succumbing to dementia but it doesn't really explain the tone of the programme which positions Tim as the boss and Pru as his hapless sidekick. There's a shot which has been used in the opening credits for the last two series. They've just gone up in a lock and the boat is tied on a centre line in the lock. Tim attempts to drive off but is still tied, causing the boat to pitch. Both at the time, and in the voiceover, Pru is blamed for it by Tim. Except, in my view this is a 50/50 thing at best. Pru tied the rope on, but Tim is the one driving off. When I drive off, I make it my reponsibility to make sure it's safe for me to do so. If something then turns out to be wrong, I'll take at least half the blame...

 

A similar thing happened with the stern line in last night's episode.

 

I just end up feeling terribly sorry for Pru every time. not just for her dementia but for the way it provides an excuse for Tim and the programme makers to blame her for things. When Tim crashes into something for the umpteenth time, you never hear Pru's voiceover blaming him for being a crap driver, you hear him making excuses, such as 'it's a contact sport' or 'it's tight turn'.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Dave_P

[haggis]

I loved the program and thought the scenery magnificent and I would love to do that journey. I think how Tim and Pru address one another is neither here nor there and if pru wasn't happy about it, I am sure she would say. She doesn't go along with Tim all the time . However, they both obviously love each other and love waterways so long may they continue to enjoy both.

 

Dave-P. I do drive the boat but it is my choice not to do it in locks. I had to a few years ago when I had a leg in plaster and I wasn't able to do locks and I didn't enjoy it nearly as much as I usually do, doing locks. It is up to every couple how they split the work in all they do and who are we to disagree?

 

Haggis

[churchward]

Exactly this. It's a very familiar tale. There has to be something underlying it all. I think I've already made my views clear.

 

I've taught a few people to steer my boat. There is a marked difference in how the genders approach it. Men tend to be gung-ho and the results can be highly variable, from the 'natural' who just gets it straight away, to the guy who repeated aims at the bank. Women are, on balance, much more reluctant and cautious about steering. That caution could be a indication on how women approach new challenges in general, but the reluctance? My guess is that women are brought up with the idea that being in charge of a boat is a man's thing and not really for them. It's a pattern which is repeated across many activities and professions, with little basis in a woman's ability to succeed at it. To me it harks back to outdated values about gender roles and shows that, while we've come a long way, we still have a long way to go.

 

I take TreeMonkey's points and have my own experiences of family members succumbing to dementia but it doesn't really explain the tone of the programme which positions Tim as the boss and Pru as his hapless sidekick. There's a shot which has been used in the opening credits for the last two series. They've just gone up in a lock and the boat is tied on a centre line in the lock. Tim attempts to drive off but is still tied, causing the boat to pitch. Both at the time, and in the voiceover, Pru is blamed for it by Tim. Except, in my view this is a 50/50 thing at best. Pru tied the rope on, but Tim is the one driving off. When I drive off, I make it my reponsibility to make sure it's safe for me to do so. If something then turns out to be wrong, I'll take at least half the blame...

 

A similar thing happened with the stern line in last night's episode.

 

I just end up feeling terribly sorry for Pru every time. not just for her dementia but for the way it provides an excuse for Tim and the programme makers to blame her for things. When Tim crashes into something for the umpteenth time, you never hear Pru's voiceover blaming him for being a crap driver, you hear him making excuses, such as 'it's a contact sport' or 'it's tight turn'.

I rather think Jaclocs post supports what I have been saying. She will have her own reasons for not wishing to or chickening out in having a go. My wife may/will have a different set of reasons. What are we supposed to do shout and beat them until they do have a go?

 

You appear to be assuming that somehow it is the over bearing male attitude that is stopping them from trying it. you would be laughed out of town if you suggested that as the reason to my wife. I think you should at least entertain the idea that some people women or not do not wish to participate in that side of the boating experience. The rest of the world has no need to conform to what you think is proper behavior

 

As for Pru and Tim they will have their own reasons for the way they are and I too feel a little sorry for Pru that she has the condition she has and has to suffer the apparent frustration of her husband. But that's life, they have been married a long time there is always a little friction along the way and whatever they are doing works for them. In any case I can't feel too sorry for them they are mainly healthy and able in their mid 80s to undertake these journeys so they are doing OK compared to many others.

Edited March 21, 2016 by churchward

[cuthound]

In the early days of our boating my wife drove the boat into and out of the locks and I did the locks.

 

After the crew of another boat "helped" at Hillmorton bottom lock by rapidly opening the paddles before I had completely closed the gates, resulting in the boat being slammed into the bottom gates, it put her off, so now she prefers to operate the locks.

 

I help out by closing the top gate and opening paddles on my side when going down. However I miss not operating the locks, somehow it is strangley satisfying.

[Dave_P]

 

I think you should at least entertain the idea that some people women or not do not wish to participate in that side of the boating experience. The rest of the world has no need to conform to what you think is proper behavior

 

 

I do entertain that idea. I never said otherwise. What I've said, and suggested an explanation for, is that whilst it's relatively common for women to say that don't like driving the boat, I've never heard it from a man. Martin's method wasn't due to his reluctance. Of course, my suggestion might be wrong but if it is, how do you explain it?

 

Also, as I've said previously in this thread, who drives the boat, isn't my major concern, it's how Pru is spoken to and treated more generally.

 

It does seem like I've touched some nerves though. Certainly, if my partner refused to ever drive the boat, I'd be thinking hard about why. Perhaps it's just preference but it certainly be examining my attitudes and behaviour to be sure i wasn't unintentionally putting them off. Like Bizzard, I find it fascinating to watch other couple when locking and the sight of a familiar (beer-bellied) overbearing captain, barking orders at his nervous wreck of a wife isn't too unfamiliar. I've even had said guy come talking to me in conspiritorial tones about the folly of expecting such little women to be any good at boating.

[churchward]

I do entertain that idea. I never said otherwise. What I've said, and suggested an explanation for, is that whilst it's relatively common for women to say that don't like driving the boat, I've never heard it from a man. Martin's method wasn't due to his reluctance. Of course, my suggestion might be wrong but if it is, how do you explain it?

 

Also, as I've said previously in this thread, who drives the boat, isn't my major concern, it's how Pru is spoken to and treated more generally.

 

It does seem like I've touched some nerves though. Certainly, if my partner refused to ever drive the boat, I'd be thinking hard about why. Perhaps it's just preference but it certainly be examining my attitudes and behaviour to be sure i wasn't unintentionally putting them off. Like Bizzard, I find it fascinating to watch other couple when locking and the sight of a familiar (beer-bellied) overbearing captain, barking orders at his nervous wreck of a wife isn't too unfamiliar. I've even had said guy come talking to me in conspiritorial tones about the folly of expecting such little women to be any good at boating.

Now you are just being intentionally provocative, talking about "little women" etc. Your really like to trot out the stereo types don't you? You have no idea how we like to go boating or anyone else for that matter or what we must be thinking. I know why my wife does not want to steer the boat and we are both comfortable with each other and the reasons thank you very much.

 

I have known several men who do not wish to steer a boat or indeed drive a car. I agree it seems more common in women to feel that way for all sorts of reasons only some of which will be to do with the attitude of the other people around them.

 

You are of course allowed to be as entertained by others as you like I enjoy watching folk too.

 

We are practiced in our routines and most often have no need to speak to each other about the operation of the lock far less bark orders at each other. We just do what we need to do.

Edited March 21, 2016 by churchward

[Dave_P]

Now you are just being intentionally provocative, talking about "little women" etc. Your really like to trot out the stereo types don't you? You have no idea how we like to go boating or anyone else for that matter or what we must be thinking. I know why my wife does not want to steer the boat and we are both comfortable with each other and the reasons thank you very much.

I think you misread my post. I was referring to what other male boaters have said to me. Not my words, theirs.

 

We are practiced in our routines and most often have no need to speak to each other about the operation of the lock far less bark orders at each other. We just do what we need to do.

I never said that my concerns applied to everyone. No need to be so defensive.

[mrsmelly]

Exactly this. It's a very familiar tale. There has to be something underlying it all. I think I've already made my views clear.

 

I've taught a few people to steer my boat. There is a marked difference in how the genders approach it. Men tend to be gung-ho and the results can be highly variable, from the 'natural' who just gets it straight away, to the guy who repeated aims at the bank. Women are, on balance, much more reluctant and cautious about steering. That caution could be a indication on how women approach new challenges in general, but the reluctance? My guess is that women are brought up with the idea that being in charge of a boat is a man's thing and not really for them. It's a pattern which is repeated across many activities and professions, with little basis in a woman's ability to succeed at it. To me it harks back to outdated values about gender roles and shows that, while we've come a long way, we still have a long way to go.

 

I take TreeMonkey's points and have my own experiences of family members succumbing to dementia but it doesn't really explain the tone of the programme which positions Tim as the boss and Pru as his hapless sidekick. There's a shot which has been used in the opening credits for the last two series. They've just gone up in a lock and the boat is tied on a centre line in the lock. Tim attempts to drive off but is still tied, causing the boat to pitch. Both at the time, and in the voiceover, Pru is blamed for it by Tim. Except, in my view this is a 50/50 thing at best. Pru tied the rope on, but Tim is the one driving off. When I drive off, I make it my reponsibility to make sure it's safe for me to do so. If something then turns out to be wrong, I'll take at least half the blame...

 

A similar thing happened with the stern line in last night's episode.

 

I just end up feeling terribly sorry for Pru every time. not just for her dementia but for the way it provides an excuse for Tim and the programme makers to blame her for things. When Tim crashes into something for the umpteenth time, you never hear Pru's voiceover blaming him for being a crap driver, you hear him making excuses, such as 'it's a contact sport' or 'it's tight turn'.

 

You dont seem to appreciate that genders are and will always be different. As a couple of " For examples " Women of late have made the best Prime ministers.

Another is that when I lived in a Police House one morning a 16 year old girl came in a dishevelled state banging on the door. She had ben raped. She was quiet with me and I immediately foned the ;local station for a Police WOMAN to attend which she rapidly did and on entering my house the girl burst into tears and respended massively to the Police woman. The reason she did this was one of Gender, its as simple as that. There are many many instances were women are better than men at certain tasks and vice versa, to pretend genders do not differ is just silly.

 

Tim

[churchward]

I think you misread my post. I was referring to what other male boaters have said to me. Not my words, theirs.

I never said that my concerns applied to everyone. No need to be so defensive.

I am not being defensive just putting a different point of view from yours and illustrating it with what actually happens between us two.

 

Still, even if Tim is a complete ass I still enjoyed the program. I am not likely to meet either of them socially so I do not need to like them to enjoy the entertainment or seeing the Swedish Inland waterways. I do enjoy (despite some tiffs) their apparent love for each other and determination to be continuing on together as long as possible boating despite their age and health issues. They are doing OK for their mid 80s.

[ditchcrawler]

 

Women of late have made the best Prime ministers.

 

careful

[Dave_P]

 

You dont seem to appreciate that genders are and will always be different. As a couple of " For examples " Women of late have made the best Prime ministers.

Another is that when I lived in a Police House one morning a 16 year old girl came in a dishevelled state banging on the door. She had ben raped. She was quiet with me and I immediately foned the ;local station for a Police WOMAN to attend which she rapidly did and on entering my house the girl burst into tears and respended massively to the Police woman. The reason she did this was one of Gender, its as simple as that. There are many many instances were women are better than men at certain tasks and vice versa, to pretend genders do not differ is just silly.

 

Tim

Obviously, as a living breathing human from planet earth, I'm aware that men and women are different. However, dismissing behavioural differences as entirely down the biological differences seems a bit naive to me. As I've pointed out, I've witnessed misogyny on the waterways which has disturbed me. It seems entirely obvious that an undercurrent of misogyny would have an impact.

I am not being defensive just putting a different point of view from yours and illustrating it with what actually happens between us two.

 

Still, even if Tim is a complete ass I still enjoyed the program. I am not likely to meet either of them socially so I do not need to like them to enjoy the entertainment or seeing the Swedish Inland waterways. I do enjoy (despite some tiffs) their apparent love for each other and determination to be continuing on together as long as possible boating despite their age and health issues. They are doing OK for their mid 80s.

I enjoyed seeing the Swedish canals too!

careful

Political discussion alert! Sound the klaxon!

[X Alan W]

 

I agree entirely - he comes over as rather a martinet, thrusting a line at her and snapping at her to take it when there is no way she can reach across the gap between boat and bank was a good example. It is also sad that they have been boating for so long but learned so little of the skills involved that would make their life so much easier (hers, anyway). And how he can expect Pru to get off the boat to tie up all the time when she is now rather unsteady on her feet, or demand she looses the lines fore and aft while he sits in regal splendour in his captain's chair and does not even look to check what she is doing.

 

On the other hand they do obviously enjoy what they are doing, and Pru sems to accept it all quite stoically, so who am I to suggest they act in any other way.

 

Tam

Agree with what Tam said, It never ceases to put me in to the Gob Smacked bracket re their canal TV programs that having owned a boat for so many years & boated quite extensively the way he mishandles a boat & seems proud of his lack of skill. I've come across hirer's on their first week ever on the canal with better boat handling skills & certainly a better attitude to boat & crew, he openly admits Pru has a dementia type problem so how come he doesn't allow for her problems & when she says I can't or whatever he gets on his i'm in charge mode & it's a case of do as I say without question to me it comes over as pompous incompetent whilst the poor woman his doing the best she can, He would possibly have more success at banger racing now that is a contact sport.

Edited March 21, 2016 by X Alan W

[dogless]

Why , when merely discussing a tv 'show' do people have to be so judgemental.

It's a form of entertainment.

If you don't like it don't watch it. It really is that simple.

Married couples tend to stay together because they love each other and can't imagine being apart in my experience.

If you don't like the show, fair do's, but it's a leap to talk about bullying and misogyny.

Rog

[romarni123]

Dave-P I only steered our boat a few times, it was the most boring thing ever .So although I can do it I decided never to do it .