Misjudged Widebeam Liveaboard Purchases?

[magictime]

Being very new I'm not arguing with you here, but is that 2-mile limit acceptable? If it is, why are so many people up in arms about it?

 

Yes, I think the acceptability of moving two miles is about as definite as it gets in the murky world of waterways regulation. Even if you moored for 14 days, then moved one mile, then moored again for 14 days, I don't think CRT would be likely to argue that you hadn't fulfilled the requirement to move to a new 'place' every 14 days.

 

But if you moved in that pattern all year up and down a stretch of, say, 5, 10 or 15 miles, they might very well argue that you weren't fulfilling the additional requirement (for boaters without a home mooring) to use your boat 'bona fide for navigation' throughout the period of your licence.

 

People aren't (generally speaking) up in arms about having to move a mile or two to a new 'place' every couple of weeks; it's the question of how far you have to cruise in total in a year that's more contentious. Why are they up in arms about that? I suppose because even cruising over a 26-mile range (to take Dave's example) might involve a lot of hassle for some boaters depending on their commitments to work, school etc., and if you don't believe CRT have any legal right to insist that boaters do anything more than comply with the 14-day rule, they're out of order by creating that hassle.

 

(Edited to add: to be clear, just because moving two miles at a time is pretty definitely acceptable, doesn't mean having a 26-mile cruising range in a year, as per Dave's example, is equally definitely acceptable... that's a bit closer to the fuzzy borderline between what CRT will and won't accept as adding up to 'bona fide navigation'.)

Edited March 3, 2016 by magictime

[Dave_P]

Being very new I'm not arguing with you here, but is that 2-mile limit acceptable? If it is, why are so many people up in arms about it?

 

ITA with your secondary point about something of a duty of care- even if this chap sold his boat now rather than allow it to be confiscated, he'd have some money to live on rather than losing what is likely to be his only asset.

 

To be honest, 1 mile would often be acceptable. 2 miles as an average would be fine. The reason people are up in arms falls into three categories;

 

1. People who are looking for reasons to be up in arms because they don't want to move.

2. People rightly concerned about CRT overstepping their legal remit and applying the law inconsistently.

3. People who hold the belief that there's more important issues for CRT to deal with than hounding boaters around the canals.

 

Of course the man I mention might be better off selling up now but mental illness can be a bugger like that. Craving isolation, yet being unable to recognise that it fuels further depression; difficulty in making decisions or facing change - and that's just for starters.

 

Reasonable, balanced and compassionate. If that's not worth a greeno as a model of forum discussion, I don't know what is.

Thanks.

[Dave_P]

 

Yes, I think the acceptability of moving two miles is about as definite as it gets in the murky world of waterways regulation. Even if you moored for 14 days, then moved one mile, then moored again for 14 days, I don't think CRT would be likely to argue that you hadn't fulfilled the requirement to move to a new 'place' every 14 days.

 

But if you moved in that pattern all year up and down a stretch of, say, 5, 10 or 15 miles, they might very well argue that you weren't fulfilling the additional requirement (for boaters without a home mooring) to use your boat 'bona fide for navigation' throughout the period of your licence.

 

People aren't (generally speaking) up in arms about having to move a mile or two to a new 'place' every couple of weeks; it's the question of how far you have to cruise in total in a year that's more contentious. Why are they up in arms about that? I suppose because even cruising over a 26-mile range (to take Dave's example) might involve a lot of hassle for some boaters depending on their commitments to work, school etc., and if you don't believe CRT have any legal right to insist that boaters do anything more than comply with the 14-day rule, they're out of order by creating that hassle.

 

(Edited to add: to be clear, just because moving two miles at a time is pretty definitely acceptable, doesn't mean having a 26-mile cruising range in a year, as per Dave's example, is equally definitely acceptable... that's a bit closer to the fuzzy borderline between what CRT will and won't accept as adding up to 'bona fide navigation'.)

In practice, I'd be astonished if CRT tried to refuse to issue a licence to a boater who moved in 2 mile hops, every fortnight over a 26 miles range.

 

When pressed, they said 20-25 miles would likely be acceptable. If your workplace was at the halfway point, you'd have a max journey of 13 miles which can be easily cycled in an hour, even if you don't own a car. Of course, some people have mobility issues or parenting issues which complicate things further. As has been said many times on this forum, there's no right for a person to live on the canal. It's true but it doesn't address the fact that many people do live on the canal who would probably be better housed elsewhere. How to deal with the situation is the real question, not just whining about freeloaders and pisstakers.

[magictime]

In practice, I'd be astonished if CRT tried to refuse to issue a licence to a boater who moved in 2 mile hops, every fortnight over a 26 miles range.

 

When pressed, they said 20-25 miles would likely be acceptable.

 

I'm sure you're right; I was just pointing out that this isn't as well-established as the fact that you don't have to move more than a mile or two after spending 14 days in one place.

[BruceinSanity]

It's not really anything like as difficult as you think. If you move two miles every two weeks (avoiding visitor moorings), making 26 moves a year, half the year in one direction and half the year in the other, you will cover a range of 26 miles and not stay in one place for more than 2 weeks. I can pretty much guarantee that you'll have satisfied the board. For a bit of extra security, keep a log to show your movements.

 

It's not really too hard is it? Whether or not the law, and the application of it, is sensible is a different question of course...

 

As an example, I'm currently moored near a boat which has been on a 24 hour mooring since last August, when he was kicked off a permanent online mooring for running his engine until 11.00pm. He simply moved over to the towpath and is now in enforcement and will probably lose his license. This, I suppose, makes him a pisstaker. The rest of the story is that boat life hasn't really agreed with him, he seems genuinely scared of moving his boat, he is suffering from depression and has become increasingly isolated and has taken to the bottle. I wouldn't say that this is purely CRTs responsibility to solve but they do (in my opinion) have a duty to work with relevant local agencies and authorities to find a good outcome for this man, which doesn't involve police and bailiffs and a very distressed man left homeless on the towpath. Some folk will simply look down on people like this with no sympathy but I always think 'there but for the grace of god...'

Good post, but isn't that exactly why they've appointed a welfare officer to get involved in cases like this?

 

And as I know from long and sometimes bitter experience, people with mental health probs, especially involving alcohol or similar substances, can be incredibly difficult to help.

[blackrose]

It's not really anything like as difficult as you think. If you move two miles every two weeks (avoiding visitor moorings), making 26 moves a year, half the year in one direction and half the year in the other, you will cover a range of 26 miles and not stay in one place for more than 2 weeks. I can pretty much guarantee that you'll have satisfied the board. For a bit of extra security, keep a log to show your movements.

 

 

But I thought there was something in the terms about not returning to a previous mooring within a calendar year, so that you had to keep moving in the same direction?

[Alan de Enfield]

But I thought there was something in the terms about not returning to a previous mooring within a calendar year, so that you had to keep moving in the same direction?

 

Is that new job you've got with C&RT by any chance ?

[magictime]

But I thought there was something in the terms about not returning to a previous mooring within a calendar year, so that you had to keep moving in the same direction?

 

I don't claim the encyclopaedic knowledge of the rules and regulations some people have, but I'm 99.9% sure that isn't in the terms. That would rule out CCers being able to do an 'out and back' cruise even where unavoidable, e.g. along the Lllangollen, the Lancaster, the Caldon, the Peak Forest...

[Dave_P]

Good post, but isn't that exactly why they've appointed a welfare officer to get involved in cases like this?

 

 

They have, and it's got to be a positive step. I hope some of the horror stories of the past aren't to be repeated in the future.

[cuthound]

But I thought there was something in the terms about not returning to a previous mooring within a calendar year, so that you had to keep moving in the same direction?

I don't think that is in the regulations, however I have seen signs at Foxton and other popular places stating "no return within 30 days" (not sure if they are legal though).

[Dave_P]

But I thought there was something in the terms about not returning to a previous mooring within a calendar year, so that you had to keep moving in the same direction?

Is there? Do you have anything to back that up? A few years ago, CRT/BW were still peddling that 'progressive journey' B.S. (along with certain forumites). The guidance at the time did require that cc'ers could only turn at a dead end. To my knowledge that's no longer a requirement https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/633.pdfThe guidance forbids an A-B-A-B-A cruising pattern but not an A-B-C-B-A pattern as far as I can tell.

[magictime]

A few years ago, CRT/BW were still peddling that 'progressive journey' B.S. (along with certain forumites). The guidance at the time did require that cc'ers could only turn at a dead end. To my knowledge that's no longer a requirement

 

God, I hope not! Imagine getting to, say, Castleford on the A&C, and having to think, well, I wouldn't mind visiting Leeds two days' cruise away, but if I do that I can't come back and head towards Selby or Sheffield or Goole without spending a month going via Wigan, the Bridgewater, the Rochdale etc.!

[FadeToScarlet]

 

No, EA.

Being specific, EA Anglian region.

 

If the boat is 10' beam, being 57' long I think, he could try getting across the middle level to access the Ouse. I've taken a 10' x 62' widebeam from Salter's to March, as long as Mike can get round Brigatte Bend he could possibly get right across.

[blackrose]

 

Is that new job you've got with C&RT by any chance ?

 

No, why?

 

I don't claim the encyclopaedic knowledge of the rules and regulations some people have, but I'm 99.9% sure that isn't in the terms. That would rule out CCers being able to do an 'out and back' cruise even where unavoidable, e.g. along the Lllangollen, the Lancaster, the Caldon, the Peak Forest...

 

Ok, I'm no expert either, so I stand corrected.

 

As I've paid for my moorings for the last 10 years I haven't really been following the debates that closely, but if not returning to a particular area/mooring isn't in the CCing terms then I really can't imagine what all the fuss has been about CCers staying in the same area? It's not that difficult to move every fortnight and then at some point turn around and start to come back along the same route, perhaps paying for a winter mooring.

Is there? Do you have anything to back that up? A few years ago, CRT/BW were still peddling that 'progressive journey' B.S. (along with certain forumites). The guidance at the time did require that cc'ers could only turn at a dead end. To my knowledge that's no longer a requirement https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/633.pdfThe guidance forbids an A-B-A-B-A cruising pattern but not an A-B-C-B-A pattern as far as I can tell.

 

No, I don't have anything to back it up, I just thought I read something about progressive journeys several years ago and not returning to the same place. Perhaps I misunderstood it? It seems the situation for CCers isn't that bad at all. I don't know what some of them are complaining about? Try paying for a mooring - that isn't always easy either!

Edited March 3, 2016 by blackrose

[Alan de Enfield]

 

No, why?

 

 

Just that C&RT seem to 'invent things' as well

[blackrose]

Being specific, EA Anglian region.

 

If the boat is 10' beam, being 57' long I think, he could try getting across the middle level to access the Ouse. I've taken a 10' x 62' widebeam from Salter's to March, as long as Mike can get round Brigatte Bend he could possibly get right across.

 

My boat's 12' wide so probably not.

 

Just that C&RT seem to 'invent things' as well

 

Perhaps it was something they invented that I read once.

Edited March 3, 2016 by blackrose

[magictime]

 

As I've paid for my moorings for the last 10 years I haven't really been following the debates that closely, but if not returning to a particular area/mooring isn't in the CCing terms then I really can't imagine what all the fuss has been about CCers staying in the same area? It's not that difficult to move every fortnight and then at some point turn around and start to come back along the same route, perhaps paying for a winter mooring.

 

I wouldn't have thought so either, although I suppose it's that much harder if you have, say, kids in school as well as a job to get to. And if you honestly think CRT have no legal right to insist that you do anything more than respect the 14 day rule, I guess you're going to object to the hassle even if what you're being told to do isn't especially difficult.

[David Mack]

It's not really anything like as difficult as you think. If you move two miles every two weeks (avoiding visitor moorings), making 26 moves a year, half the year in one direction and half the year in the other, you will cover a range of 26 miles and not stay in one place for more than 2 weeks. I can pretty much guarantee that you'll have satisfied the board. For a bit of extra security, keep a log to show your movements.

Its easy to identify patterns of boating which are bona fide for navigation, and plenty of CCers do just that. What nobody can define though is just how little movement is still acceptable.

 

To my mind, since the Act includes the words "without remaining in one place for more than 14 days ...", boating in which every stay is 14 days long would suggest an intention to move as infrequently as possible, and therefor not bona fide for navigation, whereas someone who normally moves on every 2-3 days, and only occasionally stops for as long as 14 days would be demonstrating a much more bona fide intent, even if the distance moved each time or in total over the year was less than the first boater.

[Loafer]

I STILL don't understand what all the fuss is about. If you need to be in the same town all year, get a mooring, or a flat.

 

If you want to do the nomad thing around the canals for the pleasure of boating, then go do it.

 

Stop whinging about terms and conditions!

[FadeToScarlet]

 

My boat's 12' wide so probably not.

 

That's a shame. The Nene is lovely, and getting more and more facilities- 4 new sets of visitor moorings from the Friends of the River Nene group.

 

You can always go across the Wash once you've done all the Nene!

[blackrose]

I STILL don't understand what all the fuss is about. If you need to be in the same town all year, get a mooring, or a flat.

 

If you want to do the nomad thing around the canals for the pleasure of boating, then go do it.

 

Stop whinging about terms and conditions!

I'm not sure who that is directed towards unless it's just a general comment? I don't think anyone here is whinging about terms and conditions?

 

Also, your binary choices of either buying a flat and staying put or buying a boat and being a nomad seem a bit limited to me. What about living on a boat on a mooring and doing the nomad thing when you have time? Plenty of people do that.

Edited March 4, 2016 by blackrose

[blackrose]

That's a shame. The Nene is lovely, and getting more and more facilities- 4 new sets of visitor moorings from the Friends of the River Nene group.

 

You can always go across the Wash once you've done all the Nene!

 

Thanks. If I get the job and find a mooring on the Nene then I'll get the boat lifted out.

[blackrose]

I've just been offered the job so it looks like I'll be moving to the Northampton area. The plan is to rent a room during the week and come back to the boat at weekends for a few months until I'm sure the job is working out and at the same time I'll look around the area for a mooring. I've got 4 weeks before I start so in theory I could start moving the boat now, but I expect there are countless lock stoppages on the K&A and GU.

[RufusR]

I've just been offered the job so it looks like I'll be moving to the Northampton area. The plan is to rent a room during the week and come back to the boat at weekends for a few months until I'm sure the job is working out and at the same time I'll look around the area for a mooring. I've got 4 weeks before I start so in theory I could start moving the boat now, but I expect there are countless lock stoppages on the K&A and GU.

 

 

think the GU is relatively clear now , the major stoppage on southern GU has ended and now lots of boats moving . The only one to check is just below Stoke Bruene but I think that should be clear by now too , can anyone confirm ?

[blackrose]

Thanks, I'll have a look at the stoppages page.