I'm still confused electrical knowledge required

[valrene9600]

Paul C and everyone I have learnt so much. The clamp meter bouvh on recommendation of forum has yet to be used, (back prob) but I now have the knowledge to tackle the tail current soon.

 

Can I just say to members it's times like this you appreciate the forum. When threads get locked or you get totally hissed off about what an act says or doesn't say or whatever else annoys you on here just remember the good threads about so many subjects be they pub chat or history etc.

Thanks all

[Terryb]

I am Terryb my boat is Alfie. I asked to get my Facebook and canal world profiles linked. Sorry for the confusion. But I'm not sure if I can do anything about it.

[Paul C]

I dare say, some narrowboat battery banks' wiring looks more like this:

 

[MtB]

I dare say, some narrowboat battery banks' wiring looks more like this:

 

battery clamp ammeter location2.jpg

 

 

Disagree. That's FAR neater than most!

 

Most boats I've seen are wired up using the "Birds Nest" method...

[Tony Brooks]

I dare say, some narrowboat battery banks' wiring looks more like this:

 

battery clamp ammeter location2.jpg

 

Except in theory that should fail the BSS. Everything on the positive side apart from a very few mainly low current exceptions should be on the other side of the master switch. This includes the alternator charging cable. I only report what the BSS say (unless it has recently changed) and do not necessarily agree with it.

 

I do agree with what Paul says though.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Tony Brooks

[ditchcrawler]

 

Except in theory that should fail the BSS. Everything on the positive side apart from a very few mainly low current exceptions should be on the other side of the master switch. This includes the alternator charging cable. I only report what the BSS say (unless it has recently changed) and do not necessarily agree with it.

 

I do agree with what Paul says though.

Is it still possible to pass a BSS with the isolator in the negative line?

[Paul C]

Is it still possible to pass a BSS with the isolator in the negative line?

 

Its possible to remove something, hide it in a cupboard, pass the BSS then put it back again once the examiner has gone.

[dmr]

 

 

Disagree. That's FAR neater than most!

 

Most boats I've seen are wired up using the "Birds Nest" method...

 

Terminology failure alert!

 

A birds nest is a twiggy thing in a tree where birds lay eggs.

A horrible bit of wiring, in a sort of 3 dimensional tangle, is a rats nest!

 

......................Dave

[ditchcrawler]

 

Its possible to remove something, hide it in a cupboard, pass the BSS then put it back again once the examiner has gone.

I think you may have a problem with the electrics if you remove the isolator and put it in the cupboard, likewise if the examiner couldn't find it he wont pass it.

[WotEver]

Is it still possible to pass a BSS with the isolator in the negative line?

IMHO it shouldn't be but yes, it will pass.

 

Tony

[Paul C]

I think you may have a problem with the electrics if you remove the isolator and put it in the cupboard, likewise if the examiner couldn't find it he wont pass it.

 

My point is that the BSS is pretty useless, in that its childs-play to circumvent a lot of the requirements if you are dishonest. It is also possible to pass it, then extensively modify the boat in the forthcoming 4 years.

[smileypete]

If the OP wants guaranteed power and decent batt life...

 

My (sometimes unpopular) advice would be to get a voltmeter and some sort of ammeter, spend a little time and trouble to properly understand what they're telling you. THEN get a Smartguage.

 

It's a lot easier to learn when things are working reasonably well at the beginning... . But once a Smartgauge is fitted the incentive to learn is often lost, even the manual for it is often sadly neglected

[Loafer]

If the OP wants guaranteed power and decent batt life...

 

My (sometimes unpopular) advice would be to get a voltmeter and some sort of ammeter, spend a little time and trouble to properly understand what they're telling you. THEN get a Smartguage.

 

It's a lot easier to learn when things are working reasonably well at the beginning... . But once a Smartgauge is fitted the incentive to learn is often lost, even the manual for it is often sadly neglected

 

Smiley, that bit in red took me about 4 years with good tuition, and ended with an 'A' Level in physics and a 'BSc' in Electicle Shit.

 

How is your average new boater, with no 'previous', going to achieve that?

 

I've been trying for 5 years with Mrs Loafer, and she can still only just mutter the word 'ampere', in a manner like a child learning a new word.

 

But BOY, could she sail a yacht.

[smileypete]

 

Smiley, that bit in red took me about 4 years with good tuition, and ended with an 'A' Level in physics and a 'BSc' in Electicle Shit.

 

How is your average new boater, with no 'previous', going to achieve that?

 

I've been trying for 5 years with Mrs Loafer, and she can still only just mutter the word 'ampere', in a manner like a child learning a new word.

 

But BOY, could she sail a yacht.

 

That's because you've been reading canalworld forum.

 

OK all it really needs:

 

1) Batteries in frequent use need a FULL charge at least weekly - other charging can be near full as practicable.

 

2) SO, what is a FULL charge, then? To paraphrase 'The Battery FAQ':

 

a) Charge voltage has reached the correct level as required by the manufacturer or supplier.

 

b ) Charge current has tailed off to a steady low level, usually less than 1 to 2% of batt capacity in Ah - may take 6 to 8 hours!

 

c) If a non sealed battery, it helps if the battery acid is fizzing gently at the end - a quick peek once in a blue moon will do.

 

3) Recharge when the batt voltage no longer recovers above 12.2V, or say 12.1V if running a few LED lights or 12V fridge. If the inverter starts beeping it's definitely time to recharge!

 

 

OK, so what's difficult about that then? OK it's not super perfect, but I reckon that following it from the get-go would eliminate 80-90% of typical batt problems.

 

There's a bit more in terms of safe handling (important!) and topping up if applicable, this can be found at The Battery FAQ itself.

 

http://batteryfaq.org/

 

Now, if Mrs Loafer can't get her head around that, (and I do expect quite a few people can't) she could probably benefit from a Smartgauge manual carefully rewritten for mere mortals!

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited February 21, 2016 by smileypete

[Loafer]

 

That's because you've been reading canalworld forum.

 

OK all it really needs:

 

1) Batteries in frequent use need a FULL charge at least weekly - other charging can be near full as practicable.

 

2) SO, what is a FULL charge, then? To paraphrase 'The Battery FAQ':

 

a) Charge voltage has reached the correct level as required by the manufacturer or supplier.

 

b ) Charge current has tailed off to a steady low level, usually less than 1 to 2% of batt capacity in Ah - this may take as many as to 6 to 8 hours!

 

c) If a non sealed battery, it helps if the battery acid is fizzing gently at the end - a quick peek once in a blue moon will do.

 

3) Recharge when the voltage no longer recovers above 12.2V, or say 12.1V if running a few LED lights or 12V fridge. If the inverter starts beeping it's definitely time to recharge!

 

 

OK, so what's difficult about that then? OK it's not super perfect, but I reckon that following it from the get-go would eliminate 80-90% of typical batt problems.

 

There's a bit more in terms of safe handling (important!) and topping up if applicable, this can be found at The Battery FAQ itself.

 

http://batteryfaq.org/

 

Now, if Mrs Loafer can't get her head around that, she could probably benefit from a Smartgauge manual carefully rewritten for mere mortals!

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

 

Nice post, Smiley! Liked it!

 

As to Mrs Loafer, despite her not knowing the difference between a volt, an amp and a What?, DOES know when to recharge (every other day at most, or when volts drop to 12) and she knows when to stop charging (when the genny runs out of petrol).

 

Some things can be taught using a slightly different technique, without the added expense of a Smartgauge! (Good though it is)

[smileypete]

ETA A rewritten Smartgauge manual could be basically:

 

1) Ask a marine electrical specialist or someone equally skilled (like Mr Loafer ) to check the charging voltages are correct for the batteries.

 

2) If the batts are in frequent use, once a week charge them to 100% but keep charging for 2 to 3 hours more. Providing this is done, the other charging in between doesn't quite have to reach 100%

Edited February 21, 2016 by smileypete

[MtB]

 

 

b ) Charge current has tailed off to a steady low level, usually less than 1 to 2% of batt capacity in Ah - may take 6 to 8 hours!

 

 

Which any normal boater would regard as an insane amount of charging.

 

Some of us have a life involving not being stuck on the boat for eight hours at a stretch for a day a week during permissible charging times. On my boat, running a genny for eight hours and staying in to supervise once a week it is simply untenable. I think it will be cheaper to buy new batteries each year too, than spend all that money on petrol.

(Never mind the nuisance value/noise of running the genny for eight hours continuously once a week.)

[GUMPY]

Surely 6-8hrs charging daily is easily doable, its a days cruising.

When not cruising aren't all boats are on their home moorings plugged into power

Edited February 21, 2016 by Loddon

[Loafer]

 

 

Which any normal boater would regard as an insane amount of charging.

 

Some of us have a life involving not being stuck on the boat for eight hours at a stretch for a day a week during permissible charging times. On my boat, running a genny for eight hours and staying in to supervise once a week it is simply untenable. I think it will be cheaper to buy new batteries each year too, than spend all that money on petrol.

(Never mind the nuisance value/noise of running the genny for eight hours continuously once a week.)

 

Hear hear, I say, yes jolly well put, old boy. Greenable.

ETA A rewritten Smartgauge manual could be basically:

 

1) Ask a marine electrical specialist or someone equally skilled (like Mr Loafer ) to check the charging voltages are correct for the batteries.

 

2) If the batts are in frequent use, once a week charge them to 100% but keep charging for 2 to 3 hours more. Providing this is done, the other charging in between doesn't quite have to reach 100%

 

That would work, but that once-a-week 'supercharge' shouldn't be the ONLY charge that reaches bulk volts. That needs to be done every other day, if not every non-other day too.

[WotEver]

 

 

Which any normal boater would regard as an insane amount of charging.

 

Some of us have a life involving not being stuck on the boat for eight hours at a stretch for a day a week during permissible charging times. On my boat, running a genny for eight hours and staying in to supervise once a week it is simply untenable. I think it will be cheaper to buy new batteries each year too, than spend all that money on petrol.

 

(Never mind the nuisance value/noise of running the genny for eight hours continuously once a week.)

But that's fine too. Either charge your batteries properly and have them last a few years or abuse them and have them last a few months. Either is an acceptable approach.

 

Tony

[Paul C]

 

 

Which any normal boater would regard as an insane amount of charging.

 

Some of us have a life involving not being stuck on the boat for eight hours at a stretch for a day a week during permissible charging times. On my boat, running a genny for eight hours and staying in to supervise once a week it is simply untenable. I think it will be cheaper to buy new batteries each year too, than spend all that money on petrol.

(Never mind the nuisance value/noise of running the genny for eight hours continuously once a week.)

 

There's a least cost calculation/solvable problem in there somewhere. You could even put a "value" on your time.

 

Another suggestion is to have a wife/girlfriend who can attend to these things.

[smileypete]

Which any normal boater would regard as an insane amount of charging.

 

Some of us have a life involving not being stuck on the boat for eight hours at a stretch for a day a week during permissible charging times. On my boat, running a genny for eight hours and staying in to supervise once a week it is simply untenable. I think it will be cheaper to buy new batteries each year too, than spend all that money on petrol.

(Never mind the nuisance value/noise of running the genny for eight hours continuously once a week.)

 

As Julian mentions, most leisure boaters will cruise every week or thereabouts.

 

And most offgrid boaters will have a decent amount of solar these days, helping to recover capacity in summertime, nevertheless Arthurs proposal in an earlier topic looks good, even in winter there's days with a good spell of sunshine:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=81870&p=1739265

 

'Realistically fuel powered generation in the winter is ideal for the bulk stage of charge and solar is ideal for the final stages. Sadly solar output in winter is only 8 - 10% of the summer peak so 12 - 10x the amount of solar is the perfect silent and green answer.

Otherwise cram in as much as you can from the generator in the morning then leave the solar to do what little it can towards the final charge stages.'

 

Bear in mind that if facing drastic capacity loss due to sulphation, the normal charge time may go up drastically, so what you 'save' on not doing a longer weekly charge, you may well lose, plus more, on longer daily charges.

 

Failing all that, if you're really prepared to let your batts rapidly lose half or more capacity, why not pursue some sort of split bank solution, ISTR Chris Pink did this, and there's someone else on here that has:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=81870&p=1739800

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited February 21, 2016 by smileypete

[cuthound]

 

Another suggestion is to have a wife/girlfriend who can attend to these things.

Probably cheaper to replace the batteries every few months than to run one of those

[MtB]

Probably cheaper to replace the batteries every few months than to run one of those

 

 

Probably cheaper even, to buy new batteries every time they go flat instead of charging them!

Surely 6-8hrs charging daily is easily doable, its a days cruising.

When not cruising aren't all boats are on their home moorings plugged into power

 

 

Ah but when you CC is one small area, a day's cruising takes you too far away from work, school, doctor, etc etc...

 

Besides my home mooring doesn't have a power supply. Not that I ever go there...

 

[Terryb]

Am I getting really confused or is TeryMegamAlfi the same chap that a memeber went to see to sort out his charging, or is this the boat that sunk? Sorry for being so confused.

Sorry for the confusion. Alfie is my NB my name is Terry or Terryb AlfieMegnMe has been picked up from Facebook. I have made contact with Paul to try to sort out the muddle. Thanks for your interest.

Sorry Terry for taking over your thread but hopefully you are learning as well.

Come back and see if the good forum members can help you further before hour holiday.

For a while there I wondered how I was getting answers to questions I had not asked. Thanks for the heads up Les.