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Aquaman

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Hi

I've been looking to buy a new narrow boat and have spent a lot of time reading up and looking at boats and builders, They all differ greatly and i suppose you have to go with your gut instinct in the end with a builder you consider the quality, design and price meet your requirements

 

However what puzzles me is if its a custom built boat, how can they fix the price at day one. My final design and specification may change as the boat evolves though each build stage. What happens if i change my mind on certain aspects? That is unless i see a boat and want it exactly the same!

 

Another concern is that all the builders i have spoken to require payment in stages from day one. It seems to me that you are always at risk in the case where the boat builder failed. Is this the norm? How can you safe guard yourself as i have heard some builders require up to 50% from day one?

 

Any Help or advice would greatly be received also if any body could recommend builders from personal experiance or any to give a wide berth?

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Note that "I may change my mind as the build progresses" is not only terribly frustrating for the builder but will also waste a lot of your money as the price will escalate hugely with every change.

 

Tony

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Note that "I may change my mind as the build progresses" is not only terribly frustrating for the builder but will also waste a lot of your money as the price will escalate hugely with every change.

Tony

Exactly this. The builder will quote against your original specification. Changes will become "extras" and are especially expensive if something already installed has to be removed or modified.

 

Best to think through your specification to make sure it is exactly what you want before giving it to the builder.

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Note that "I may change my mind as the build progresses" is not only terribly frustrating for the builder but will also waste a lot of your money as the price will escalate hugely with every change.

 

Tony

 

repeated 'cos it is oh so, oh so true.

 

If you want to deeply pee off someone, change the spec. Often what you may see as a simple change may have ramifications back to an earlier stage of construction and require a lot of extra work and destroy the builder/plater/welder/fitters sense of work satisfaction !!!

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Have you had a house built for you ?

 

We had weekly meetings (for 6 months) with the builders and changes were implemented virtually every week, even small things like changing the design of the taps or door handles have an impact on price, however, occasionally it works to your benefit and the builder will say "if you do it this way" we can save you £1000's so its not all bad.

 

To answer your original question - yes boat-builders can & do go bust during a build and the customer tends to lose everything they have paid, there are ways around it (such as you pay for the materials and 'free-issue' them to the builder) but generally 'bigger' companies will not allow it as they will get 'volume discounts' or 'end of year rebates' (hidden from the customer).

There are a very small number of builders who accept 'pay-at-completion' but I would hazard a guess that they would be looking to build a 'standard' boat so that if you 'change your mind', lose your job etc etc, they will have something saleable.

 

Its a nightmare - buy a 2nd hand boat, get it immediately, use it for 12 months then adapt/change anything that doesn't work for you. It'll be cheaper and less fraught with 'danger'.

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Have you had a house built for you ?

 

We had weekly meetings (for 6 months) with the builders and changes were implemented virtually every week, even small things like changing the design of the taps or door handles have an impact on price, however, occasionally it works to your benefit and the builder will say "if you do it this way" we can save you £1000's so its not all bad.

 

To answer your original question - yes boat-builders can & do go bust during a build and the customer tends to lose everything they have paid, there are ways around it (such as you pay for the materials and 'free-issue' them to the builder) but generally 'bigger' companies will not allow it as they will get 'volume discounts' or 'end of year rebates' (hidden from the customer).

There are a very small number of builders who accept 'pay-at-completion' but I would hazard a guess that they would be looking to build a 'standard' boat so that if you 'change your mind', lose your job etc etc, they will have something saleable.

 

Its a nightmare - buy a 2nd hand boat, get it immediately, use it for 12 months then adapt/change anything that doesn't work for you. It'll be cheaper and less fraught with 'danger'.

Not strictly true that you will lose everything if the builder goes bust. In most cases, once work starts, you own whatever has been built & paid for. I speak from experience when Aynho Warfe Boatbuilders went bust back around 2000.

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buy a 2nd hand boat, get it immediately, use it for 12 months

 

Also, buy a second hand boat. learn what it is you like or dislike about boats, gain a load of knowledge THEN get a boat built for you.

 

Richard

  • Greenie 1
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In theory (!)....you should be asked for a small deposit to hold the build slot, then the overall price should be split down into at least 3-4 stage payments. The vessel should be insured by the builder both in his and your name, to include the risk of unforseen closure or extreme damage etc, and you should be given a copy of that insurance, naming you. The contract should state you hold ownership of the percentage of the boat you have paid for in stage payments, and the stages and amounts should reflect that. Final stage payment should not be made until the boat is launched, and both you and the builder are happy with everything, and a maiden run, preferably with the builder onboard, has been successfully undertaken.

Visit regularly, (and unexpectedly ), spec as thoroughly as possible before the build starts, in detail, expect a slight price adjustment as you go through the process, depending on your additions, but try not to change your mind on major features. Most formal contracts will give the builder the right to refuse changes to things already completed, within reason. Some builders will be more flexible than others, but you will always pay for major changes.

Talk to previous customers of the builder before you settle on one.

Edited by Ally
  • Greenie 1
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Our boatbuilder's contract was for a fixed rate of £££ per foot. Within that constraint we could amend the specification as much as we liked, of any work that had not yet been started - for example we changed the location of several cupboards, but just before the lining out was done. Every 2 weeks we went to the builder and discussd the forthcoming month's work and finalised the details as necessary. He undertook to tell us if the sum total of our proposed changes would exceed the overall budget, but basically he would build to the quantity and quality that met the agreed amount; for example if we'd specified super-fancy 240v sockets that were more expensive than his standard then he would just provide fewer of them unless we said we'd pay extra, or else compensate elsewhere by for example providing fewer shelves in the bookcase.

 

It worked well for us. In effect we set the budget and he built the best boat possible that would fit within that budget.

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Not strictly true that you will lose everything if the builder goes bust. In most cases, once work starts, you own whatever has been built & paid for. I speak from experience when Aynho Warfe Boatbuilders went bust back around 2000.

 

It will depend on the exact circumstances (and you were obviously quite lucky), if the suppliers have not been paid then the steel etc it remains their property and therefore whilst the boat-builder has charged you for it, it is not yet his (legally) to charge for, and is an 'asset' of the supplier rather than an asset of the boat-builder.

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It will depend on the exact circumstances (and you were obviously quite lucky), if the suppliers have not been paid then the steel etc it remains their property and therefore whilst the boat-builder has charged you for it, it is not yet his (legally) to charge for, and is an 'asset' of the supplier rather than an asset of the boat-builder.

Yes, I was lucky. All I can say is that in my case & quite a few other Aynho customers, the receivers decided that what had been completed was our property. I'm fairly sure that other customers probably fell foul of the unpaid suppliers rights. I know the shell builder was removing shells from the site. My only observation on your point would be the possible scenario of a partial build having work & components already installed where those suppliers have been paid, over work & components where suppliers haven't been paid. What happens then? Is your build ripped apart & work fully paid for destroyed?

 

As I originally said, it isn't always the case that you will lose everything, but you may.

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Perhaps have a look at this pinned thread first.

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=26560#entry448777

Cheers Interesting!

Perhaps have a look at this pinned thread first.

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=26560#entry448777

Cheers Interesting!

Our boatbuilder's contract was for a fixed rate of £££ per foot. Within that constraint we could amend the specification as much as we liked, of any work that had not yet been started - for example we changed the location of several cupboards, but just before the lining out was done. Every 2 weeks we went to the builder and discussd the forthcoming month's work and finalised the details as necessary. He undertook to tell us if the sum total of our proposed changes would exceed the overall budget, but basically he would build to the quantity and quality that met the agreed amount; for example if we'd specified super-fancy 240v sockets that were more expensive than his standard then he would just provide fewer of them unless we said we'd pay extra, or else compensate elsewhere by for example providing fewer shelves in the bookcase.

 

It worked well for us. In effect we set the budget and he built the best boat possible that would fit within that budget.

Sounds like you need to work closely with the build and visit regular to avoid items progressing too far without your approval!

 

Cheers

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repeated 'cos it is oh so, oh so true.

 

If you want to deeply pee off someone, change the spec. Often what you may see as a simple change may have ramifications back to an earlier stage of construction and require a lot of extra work and destroy the builder/plater/welder/fitters sense of work satisfaction !!!

 

Yes, especially if halfway through the build of your narowboat you decide you want a widebeam... tongue.png

 

Also, buy a second hand boat. learn what it is you like or dislike about boats, gain a load of knowledge THEN get a boat built for you.

 

Richard

 

It's true. If this is your first boat then look around for something you think is suitable on the second-hand market. You will never get it right first time, but by buying second-hand and owning for a few years you will find out what suits you and what doesn't and you'll be in a much better position to specify a new build (assuming you still want one!)

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Look at 100 boat ads (online included) see what you really like and really dislike, -deal makers and breakers. then see what you like and dislike a bit less -just niggles and niceties. Then draw up your own list, Needs, wants, niggles and hates.

Go look at some boats for real see whether you like all that you thought you would, Go hire some boats -when you've done a week in one you will have a finer idea of what your original likes are like to live with,

Even buy a cheap boat see what you really want when you have lived on board for a month, Like for a holiday could be different from like for a home.

Then draw up your chosen boat. Tout your design round a few builders for a price and completion date, BUT there are some fixed features including - NBs ate 6ft10 wide outside -you cannot change it.

Once you have passed that construction stage then a builder WILL charge you extra to go back and change something, and may refuse you the change if it's structurally unsound OR not (his) business sense. It may impinge on the next work he already has booked into his workspace.

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Not strictly true that you will lose everything if the builder goes bust. In most cases, once work starts, you own whatever has been built & paid for. I speak from experience when Aynho Warfe Boatbuilders went bust back around 2000.

With uncle Jack you were very lucky to end up with anything.

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In theory (!)....you should be asked for a small deposit to hold the build slot, then the overall price should be split down into at least 3-4 stage payments. The vessel should be insured by the builder both in his and your name, to include the risk of unforseen closure or extreme damage etc, and you should be given a copy of that insurance, naming you. The contract should state you hold ownership of the percentage of the boat you have paid for in stage payments, and the stages and amounts should reflect that. Final stage payment should not be made until the boat is launched, and both you and the builder are happy with everything, and a maiden run, preferably with the builder onboard, has been successfully undertaken.

Visit regularly, (and unexpectedly ), spec as thoroughly as possible before the build starts, in detail, expect a slight price adjustment as you go through the process, depending on your additions, but try not to change your mind on major features. Most formal contracts will give the builder the right to refuse changes to things already completed, within reason. Some builders will be more flexible than others, but you will always pay for major changes.

Talk to previous customers of the builder before you settle on one.

Ally what happens if you do all this and just before you take over Beta sat the engine is theirs, the steel stockist say they still own the steel and the chandlers claim they still own all the bits inside. I think they supply stuff saying its still theirs until they have been paid for it. Who gets first bite under those circumstances ? Its always something that I have wondered about.

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Yes, especially if halfway through the build of your narowboat you decide you want a widebeam... tongue.png

 

It's true. If this is your first boat then look around for something you think is suitable on the second-hand market. You will never get it right first time, but by buying second-hand and owning for a few years you will find out what suits you and what doesn't and you'll be in a much better position to specify a new build (assuming you still want one!)

 

Not always true, I reckon I got mine right first time, built from new. The builder was patient (mostly) and added my ideas around what he could do, or advised me if my idea wouldn't work. It was a compromise between his experience and my choices. Sometimes it just has to be about owning something that has never been anybody else's...that was the most important thing for me. It doesn't have to be the major risk suggested. The price at the end was around the original estimate, as I'd specified some items that were factored in from the start and actually received some refund on things the builder had specified but not used.

 

The best advice is to check previous customers, and check the builders order book. Times completed, and how they stage payments, making sure you have the important document that says at each stage the boat and contents belong to you.

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Ally what happens if you do all this and just before you take over Beta sat the engine is theirs, the steel stockist say they still own the steel and the chandlers claim they still own all the bits inside. I think they supply stuff saying its still theirs until they have been paid for it. Who gets first bite under those circumstances ? Its always something that I have wondered about.

Good question. We used to issue a "freedom of lien" certificate, which, whilst it didn't prove we paid our bills (though we did), was a legal certificate naming our customers as the outright owners with no monies owed. Whether this would protect them in court, I'm not enough of a legal eagle to know. However, creditors would have been after us as the debtors, and I believe the contract we used would also have protected the customer, had it occurred, if completion had not been quite reached. To be fair though, it's not my area of special knowledge, and was never a factor in our business. There are greater legal minds than I on here. I'm not sure how many others issue a Freedom of lien certificate, but it's a good thing to have, especially when the boat is sold on. Sorry I can't really answer the question.

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