traditional ropework

[KarlosMacronius]

KarlosMacronius, sorry if this looks like a hi-jack of your thread. Perhaps I should have started a new one "Traditional Ropework :Barges".

 

 

Not at all, I'm interested in all ropework traditions on the UK inland waterways and it is a public forum afterall. I'm pleased that there seems to be both interest and knowledge on the forums on the subject.

[Tony Dunkley]

 

Giant, now that's the thing I've seen on Yorkshire boats of all kinds - all we need now is someone to show us how to make one!

 

David.

 

This is how you make one (from Post #37) ~

 

" That style of stem fender is just a 5 run (x) 3 stranded Turkshead worked over, and closed up, round a tightly bound doughnut shaped coil of rope with a chain running through it, . . . quicker to make and much longer lasting and hard wearing than a 'knitted' fender which is covered, starting from the middle, with linked half hitches in much thinner rope." ~

 

Try making a small one at first, with much thinner rope than is shown in Giant's photograph. That will give you an idea of what lengths of the heavier rope you'll need, and how to do it.

If you need to ask about anything else once you've got started, you can post it up on here, and then the info's there for anyone else interested.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[archie57]

 

There were scrubbed white cotton top strings at the fore-end of working boats, but not rigged up like that. There is one too many, and it's the string that runs on the diagonal from the gunwhales, at the false cratch, and across the deckboard.

Pairs of boats that regularly had to 'cloth up' to keep whatever they were carrying dry would generally leave the fore-end 'topcloth' on all the time, but folded crossways to the same length as the cratch when empty.

Because of the rise of the gunwhales in the last few feet to the deck cant, the lower forward corner of a topcloth folded like this would hang over the gunwhales. To stop this happening the forward bottom corner of the folded topcloth was tucked up behind the crossways folds with the longest side of the triangular fold running from the bottom of the false cratch to about two thirds of the way up the deckboard. To keep the folded cloth in place, the 'white string' that had been over the false cratch when the topcloth had been unfolded back to the mast would then be put back on, along and over the edge of the three cornered fold from the bottom of the false cratch on each side and across the deckboard.

The arrangement of white strings in the photo is a muddled hotch-potch of two different practices for different circumstances and had no place on working boats. It's clumsily and messily done, it looks silly and serves no purpose, . . . just another example of people demonstrating how little they know or understand about the traditions they believe themselves to be maintaining.

 

Note added :~ the 'false cratch' is the A-shaped wooden framework that sits on the inner edges of the gunwhales about 3' along from the 'deckboard'.

While on the subject of the fore end of a boat, no self-respecting boater would have a "baggy" deckcloth as so often seen these days - great pains were taken to get them taut before being scrubbed. I suspect, though, that as many people have plastic/pvc cloths that getting them taut would prove difficult

[Giant]

Giant, now that's the thing I've seen on Yorkshire boats of all kinds - all we need now is someone to show us how to make one!

 

Tony's description makes sense to me in principle. Although I'm a little unclear where the chain fits into the initial doughnut of rope - do you mean starting with a loop of chain and wrapping rope around it to form the doughnut?

 

Edit: Ah, no - I'm guessing you mean the chain is threaded through the doughnut and left hanging out of the finished fender, to be used to attach to the bow.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Giant

[Tony Dunkley]

 

Tony's description makes sense to me in principle. Although I'm a little unclear where the chain fits into the initial doughnut of rope - do you mean starting with a loop of chain and wrapping rope around it to form the doughnut?

 

The 'doughnut' is simply a tight coil of rope, wound round something like the shaft of a boathook leaving a hole in the middle with the lashings through it, . . . . run the lashings along the shaft before starting the coiling, and use some bits of weak string to hold them in place.

The lashings, at least 4 turns each and a minimum of 8 spaced evenly round the coil, need to be good and tight, and the chain is laid across the diameter of the coil when you've got about half the total number of turns on it.

This leaves you with a fairly solid and roundish rope 'doughnut', with a chain running through it, ready to work the Turkshead covering round.

[furnessvale]

Its a shame it gets a bit derogatory at the end, but I find that really interesting. Both to know how the top cloths would have been used, and to know where the commonly used rope work style in the photo comes from.

 

Daniel

A study of film and photos of boats actually working, shows that there were no hard and fast rules regarding what could loosely be described as "bling" on the boats, either ropework or brass etc.

 

I can point to examples of no fancy work at all to a single white belt or string, right up to a bulk with 4 white strings behind.

 

I have also seen film of a loaded Ovaltine boat with a white string and rockets across the face of the deck board.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[DHutch]

A study of film and photos of boats actually working, shows that there were no hard and fast rules regarding what could loosely be described as "bling" on the boats, either ropework or brass etc.

 

I can point to examples of no fancy work at all to a single white belt or string, right up to a bulk with 4 white strings behind.

 

I have also seen film of a loaded Ovaltine boat with a white string and rockets across the face of the deck board.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

Fair enough.

[Tony Dunkley]

A study of film and photos of boats actually working, shows that there were no hard and fast rules regarding what could loosely be described as "bling" on the boats, either ropework or brass etc.

 

I can point to examples of no fancy work at all to a single white belt or string, right up to a bulk with 4 white strings behind.

 

I have also seen film of a loaded Ovaltine boat with a white string and rockets across the face of the deck board.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

Studying films and photos doesn't tell you anything apart from what was in front of the camera at the time.

 

It's true that there were no 'rules' about how boats were rigged up, other than those imposed by necessity and practicality, but the primary consideration for any practices, ropework or anything else was that it was done, or there, for a purpose. If it could be made to look smart and decorative at the same time as performing it's function then usually that was incorporated into the way things were done, and naturally there were the inevitable variations in detail, execution and extent reflecting the personal tastes of individual boatmen.

 

Unlike what was shown in the photo in Post #46, the white string you saw across the deckboard in the film of an Ovaltine boat would have been serving a purpose, and on Ovaltine boats, which were equipped only with sidecloths, that would have been to pull the forard edge and top corner of the sidecloths up to the deckboard as an alternative, or in addition to, the small rings and staples on the after side of the deckboard that were used for this purpose on boats with topcloths and fixed cratches.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[Ray T]

 

 

Percy & Gertrude

 

Photo from Ray Butler Collection, NarrowBoat Winter 2010

Edited February 9, 2016 by Ray T

[Tony Dunkley]

Percy & Enid.jpg

 

Percy & Enid

 

Cannot remember where I found the photo but it's not mine.

 

Thanks Ray, I don't think there could be a better photo to illustrate the point I was making. It clearly shows the butty's sidecloths pulled up and to the deckboard with two lots of white strings, both serving a purpose and looking much smarter than if a couple of bits of the same hemp as the sidecloth strings are made of had been used.

Very much better to look at than the lop-sided effort in the photo on post #46 which serves no purpose at all, except perhaps to draw attention to the baggy deckcloth.

[DRP]

 

This is how you make one (from Post #37) ~

 

" That style of stem fender is just a 5 run (x) 3 stranded Turkshead worked over, and closed up, round a tightly bound doughnut shaped coil of rope with a chain running through it, . . . quicker to make and much longer lasting and hard wearing than a 'knitted' fender which is covered, starting from the middle, with linked half hitches in much thinner rope." ~

 

Try making a small one at first, with much thinner rope than is shown in Giant's photograph. That will give you an idea of what lengths of the heavier rope you'll need, and how to do it.

If you need to ask about anything else once you've got started, you can post it up on here, and then the info's there for anyone else interested.

Thanks,Tony.

 

I've done "knitted" covers for narrowboat fenders, and got the skinned fingers to prove it.

 

I'll follow your suggestion and give it a go. I rather think that given thick enough rope, simply making a Monkey's Fist would result in a pretty bulky and robust stem fender.

 

It does seem to me that although wooden boats in the North retained "brightwork" to be proud of, there was never the same preoccupation with "clothing up" that the narrow boaters showed.

 

Even very tidy short boats like those in Pluto's photos had sheeting up that would make Tracy Emin's famous bed installation look quite tidy!

 

David.

[furnessvale]

 

Studying films and photos doesn't tell you anything apart from what was in front of the camera at the time.

 

It's true that there were no 'rules' about how boats were rigged up, other than those imposed by necessity and practicality, but the primary consideration for any practices, ropework or anything else was that it was done, or there, for a purpose. If it could be made to look smart and decorative at the same time as performing it's function then usually that was incorporated into the way things were done, and naturally there were the inevitable variations in detail, execution and extent reflecting the personal tastes of individual boatmen.

 

 

Which is what I was saying.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Tony Dunkley]

Thanks,Tony.

 

I'll follow your suggestion and give it a go. I rather think that given thick enough rope, simply making a Monkey's Fist would result in a pretty bulky and robust stem fender.

 

David.

 

In Pluto's photo of "Tiger" the two tiny fenders are in fact a 4-strand Monkey's Fist, whilst those on "Progress" are just smaller versions of a 3-strand (x) 5 run Turkshead stemfender.

You'll probably find that getting the fender core the right shape and size, which is just a bit bigger than a football, and good and solid with the chain through the middle, will be more difficult on the first attempt than covering it will be.

Making fenders, whatever sort they are, is something that's far easier to show someone than to explain, but there's much that becomes self evident whilst your actually doing it.

Don't get disheartened if it goes slightly out of shape as you're making it, or when it's finished, you'll be able to put it right with a bit of hammering, . . with the right sort of hammer, . . a 14 pound sledge, using the side of the head, will usually persuade fenders into shape.

[RLWP]

 

You'll probably find that getting the fender core the right shape and size, which is just a bit bigger than a football, and good and solid with the chain through the middle, will be more difficult on the first attempt than covering it will be.ill usually persuade fenders into shape.

 

This is absolutely true for any fender. Having done one of Brian's courses and also examined the remains of a few burst fenders, the core is what you are paying for

 

Put a lot of work into the core - it will pay off

 

Richard

[Giant]

Having now had a go at a small prototype, I'm not convinced that the one shown on Comrade is based on a 3 strand, 5 bight Turk's head. I've got that type of Turk's head in my hands right now, and no matter how I try to arrange and wrap it, there just aren't enough crossings in the central area to give that almost Monkey's-Fist-like appearance visible in the photo. I have a feeling that an 8 bight version may be needed to get that 90 degree criss-crossing effect.

[Giant]

OK, I think I've got it. This is a tripled 5 strand 4 bight Turk's head, wrapped around a short cylinder standing in for the coil.

I'm still not sure it's exactly what's shown on Comrade but it's certainly close.

[RLWP]

 

For comparison

 

Richard

[DRP]

OK, I think I've got it. This is a tripled 5 strand 4 bight Turk's head, wrapped around a short cylinder standing in for the coil.

 

I'm still not sure it's exactly what's shown on Comrade but it's certainly close.

 

 

 

 

Even if it isn't quite what's shown on Comrade, it's still pretty impressive.

 

Well done!

 

David.

[Pluto]

These are what George Cheetham made for me. The tyre was used when moving.

[RLWP]

I think the lower two are the so called 'ocean Plait' because they have the double cross in the centre. This one has an extra 'cross'

 

 

http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Ocean_plait

 

Richard

[Derek R.]

I don't know if this helps, but this bow fender was made for us by Joe Bridge of Skipton in '83. He also gave us a small Monkey's fist based around a large nut. These were apparently tied onto heaving lines, but many dockers would cut them off with a knife upon receiving them as they saw the heavy fist as a danger to their safety.

 

[steamcompound]

Having received one full in the chest whilst moving the Daniel Adamson, I don't blame the dockers at all. Traditionally the core was a nut, 1 1/4" Whitworth if you could get one. and the whole soaked in paint "to give it some body".

[wren]

Aha! So if I need more Whitworth nuts, I should start unpicking Monkey's Fists?

[Giant]

I think the lower two are the so called 'ocean Plait' because they have the double cross in the centre. This one has an extra 'cross'

 

They have that appearance, but they're cylindrical - the pattern goes right round.

 

After last night's reading & experiments, I'm now fairly sure those are more Turk's heads.

 

I think the middle one is a quadrupled 7 lead by maybe 6-8 bights, and the bottom one is similar but tripled.

[ricyoung]

Hi All.

 

I have been reading this thread with some interest, particularly Tony's point regarding the additional diagonal rope round the deck board. Whilst we are guilty of decorating Rudd in this way we have always thought that it was serving a very practical purpose.

 

If you are single handing uphill we tend to use a tack string from the forward stud run back round the mast to hold the boat forward. This is because even at tick over the Bolinder is a bit fierce. We always assumed that the reason boats have hose pipe on the fore end was to stop abrasion of the deck cloth. However, what tends to happen is that as the weight comes on the line the hosepipe gets pulled back and the rope rubs anyway.

 

However, if you pull the hosepipe forward about half an inch you can use the diagonal rope to hold it forward round onto the deck board. This means you have a nicely protected deck cloth. I suppose you could nail the hosepipe down, but you would still need to pull it round in some way.

 

I have no way near enough experience to comment on any historical accuracy, but to me it really does serve a very useful purpose. I suppose now we need to decide if this is sufficient justification to look historically inaccurate.

 

Best Regards

 

Ric