traditional ropework

[dmr]

If the op wants to have a go at some ropework and it looks pleasing to his eye then that must be correct.

Traditions must evolve else they end up in museums.

We (or rather Gillie) get very little work from historic boats because they already have everything they need.

Extra short tiller tassles are popular because they go well with a modern cruiser stern.

"One drop cabin strings" are also requested from time to time, they are popular with leisure boaters who use them to hold the boat steady in locks.

How about ropework in regimental colours????

There is a tiller tassle in "Rasta rope" hanging behind me right now, I expect that will sell quite quickly.

The vast majority of boats today have bus windows and Beta or Barrus diesels under the floor, but they can have a bit of ropework too, and its always good to see something that the owner has devised themselves.

 

.............Dave.

[RLWP]

Hello,

 

Can anyone point me in the right direction for a good source of information related to traditional ropework including both the decorative stuff for tillers/rudders etc. <snip>

 

 

If the op wants to have a go at some ropework and it looks pleasing to his eye then that must be correct.<snip>

 

.............Dave.

 

That isn't what he asked

 

Richard

[dmr]

 

 

 

That isn't what he asked

 

Richard

 

But some of the replies suggested that ropework would be wrong if it wasn't done in a very specific and prescribed style. Assuming the OP is not lucky enough enough to own a genuine historic boat I was suggesting that he can modify the tradition to suit his needs and abilities.

We all share a historic waterway and any interest in its history should be encouraged, I think it would be rather nice if every boat tried to maintain a few traditions but obviously those that don't have an elum will need to change things a little.

 

................Dave

[Tony Dunkley]

One of the jobs my nan had to do was soak the Ellum socket with water to swell the Ellum into the socket so it never worked its way out while hard turning.

 

Darren

 

Presumably the plait on the ellum is to protect the painted name when it is laid on the cabin roof

 

 

You're both getting the 'ellum' ( working boat terminology for the rudder on either motor or butty) mixed up with with the tiller.

[RLWP]

 

 

You're both getting the 'ellum' ( working boat terminology for the rudder on either motor or butty) mixed up with with the tiller.

 

I suspected I might be

 

So, the plait on the tiller is to protect the painted name when it is placed on the roof?

 

Richard

[Tony Dunkley]

 

But some of the replies suggested that ropework would be wrong if it wasn't done in a very specific and prescribed style. Assuming the OP is not lucky enough enough to own a genuine historic boat I was suggesting that he can modify the tradition to suit his needs and abilities.

We all share a historic waterway and any interest in its history should be encouraged, I think it would be rather nice if every boat tried to maintain a few traditions but obviously those that don't have an elum will need to change things a little.

 

................Dave

 

Very true, . . . any boat without an 'ellum' really needs to be pushed-towed everywhere on canals, or towed off the hook of a conventional tug on rivers.

[Tony Dunkley]

 

I suspected I might be

 

So, the plait on the tiller is to protect the painted name when it is placed on the roof?

 

Richard

 

Yes, it does keep the heavier and squared off end of it away from the cabin top and protect the paintwork on both to a certain extent, and if the tiller was taken off and laid along the cabin top in locks, instead of the alternative of standing it up in the doorholes with the socket end on the footboard, then you could save the paintwork a bit more by having the mop on the sidebed side and dropping the tiller onto the mophead before shoving it along until the socket end was about level with the slide.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[RLWP]

 

Yes, it does keep the heavier and squared off end of it away from the cabin top and protect the paintwork on both to a certain extent, and if the tiller was taken off and laid along the cabin top in locks, instead of the alternative of standing it up in the doorholes with the socket end on the footboard, then you could save the paintwork a bit more by having the mop on the sidebed side and dropping the tiller onto the mophead before shoving it along until the socket end was about level with the slide.

 

Brilliant!

 

What I like about these apparently silly bits of ropework is that they all have a purpose. On the other hand, just because they need to be there doesn't mean they can't look good

 

Thanks Tony

 

Richard

[ChimneyChain]

Brilliant!

 

 

Thanks Tony

 

Richard

Yes thanks Tony, always good to hear it straight from the horses mouth (so to speak) always enjoy you tales and snippets in the

H&H section keep more coming.

 

Darren

[Giant]

Right, that's narrow boats sorted.

 

I'd very much appreciate similarly authoritative advice in relation to "fat" boats - particularly Leeds and Liverpool short boats.

 

And likewise for fatter ones still! One project on our list is to make one of these:

 

[RLWP]

Superficially, an overgrown monkey's fist.

 

of course, it isn't

 

Richard

[Tony Dunkley]

Superficially, an overgrown monkey's fist.

 

of course, it isn't

 

Richard

 

You're not so very far off there, a Monkey's Fist being a bit like a Turkshead that doesn't quite make it.

That style of stem fender is just a 5 run (x) 3 stranded Turkshead worked over, and closed up, round a tightly bound doughnut shaped coil of rope with a chain running through it, . . . quicker to make and much longer lasting and hard wearing than a 'knitted' fender which is covered, starting from the middle, with linked half hitches in much thinner rope.

A smaller version of it, made with the same cotton line as the ellum plaits, was used as a button fender on butty's ellums, fixed high up to the trailing end of the floats.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[RLWP]

Damn. I have made a couple of place mats by flattening out Turks Head knots. I should have spotted that

 

It's an attractive fender

 

Richard

[Ray T]

 

 

Photo from NarrowBoat Magazine

 

 

 

 

 

Photo's from CRT Archive

[Ray T]

Another:

 

 

 

photo from Waterways World Magazine.

 

Two of the Humphries ladies on Neptune & Lucy.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Ray T

[KarlosMacronius]

Thanks for all the suggestions and the pics. Des Pawsons knot craft got me started and now I'm after the history of it all on narrowboats, the older the better.

[RLWP]

Thanks for all the suggestions and the pics. Des Pawsons knot craft got me started and now I'm after the history of it all on narrowboats, the older the better.

I would say you are going to have to do a lot of work yourself. There are plenty of books on knots, there are some books on rope work, usually sea going boat stuff. I don't know of any that properly cover canal boat stuff

 

Your best bet is to learn the basics well so you can begin to read what is in photographs.

 

Tony put up an excellent description of the swans neck on Rodney which, being moderately familiar with rope work I can recognise once he had written it. I don't have enough experience to read a piece of rope work straight off like that

 

If you learn to wall, crown hitch and plat you'll spot the construction of these pieces of rope work, then you can replicate them yourself

 

Richard

[Ray T]

There is of course rope work at the pointy end as well.

 

 

 

As the picture was apparently so wrong I've taken it down. Wouldn't want people to get the wrong idea would we?

Edited February 8, 2016 by Ray T

[Ray T]

Thanks for all the suggestions and the pics. Des Pawsons knot craft got me started and now I'm after the history of it all on narrowboats, the older the better.

 

Don't forget the side and chimney strings:

 

 

 

It is what Mike Humphries calls them so that is good enough for me.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Ray T

[Pluto]

Bow fenders on L&LC boats were often of the Turks Head or Rose variety. Other ropework on L&LC boats was often for protection of the paintwork, with the rope fenders being removed when tied up, as here at Bingley:

 

The Tiger is probably just posing for a photo as the fenders have not been removed. Sam Yates recalls there being several patterns for the wooden fenders in the stores at Whitebirk dockyard when he worked there.

[Tony Dunkley]

 

 

There is of course rope work at the pointy end as well.

 

Picture from here: http://www.peterloud.co.uk/photos/MK/Canal/Old%20Narrowboats.html

 

There were scrubbed white cotton top strings at the fore-end of working boats, but not rigged up like that. There is one too many, and it's the string that runs on the diagonal from the gunwhales, at the false cratch, and across the deckboard.

Pairs of boats that regularly had to 'cloth up' to keep whatever they were carrying dry would generally leave the fore-end 'topcloth' on all the time, but folded crossways to the same length as the cratch when empty.

Because of the rise of the gunwhales in the last few feet to the deck cant, the lower forward corner of a topcloth folded like this would hang over the gunwhales. To stop this happening the forward bottom corner of the folded topcloth was tucked up behind the crossways folds with the longest side of the triangular fold running from the bottom of the false cratch to about two thirds of the way up the deckboard. To keep the folded cloth in place, the 'white string' that had been over the false cratch when the topcloth had been unfolded back to the mast would then be put back on, along and over the edge of the three cornered fold from the bottom of the false cratch on each side and across the deckboard.

The arrangement of white strings in the photo is a muddled hotch-potch of two different practices for different circumstances and had no place on working boats. It's clumsily and messily done, it looks silly and serves no purpose, . . . just another example of people demonstrating how little they know or understand about the traditions they believe themselves to be maintaining.

 

Note added :~ the 'false cratch' is the A-shaped wooden framework that sits on the inner edges of the gunwhales about 3' along from the 'deckboard'.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[archie57]

Spot on Tony - but I have seen a picture of George Wain with the "Fenny" rigged up like that so it wasn't unheard of!

Edited February 8, 2016 by archie57

[DHutch]

 

There were scrubbed white cotton top strings at the fore-end of working boats, but not rigged up like that. There is one too many, and it's the string that runs on the diagonal from the gunwhales, at the false cratch, and across the deckboard.

Pairs of boats that regularly had to 'cloth up' to keep whatever they were carrying dry would generally leave the fore-end 'topcloth' on all the time, but folded crossways to the same length as the cratch when empty.

Because of the rise of the gunwhales in the last few feet to the deck cant, the lower forward corner of a topcloth folded like this would hang over the gunwhales. To stop this happening the forward bottom corner of the folded topcloth was tucked up behind the crossways folds with the longest side of the triangular fold running from the bottom of the false cratch to about two thirds of the way up the deckboard. To keep the folded cloth in place, the 'white string' that had been over the false cratch when the topcloth had been unfolded back to the mast would then be put back on, along and over the edge of the three cornered fold from the bottom of the false cratch on each side and across the deckboard.

The arrangement of white strings in the photo is a muddled hotch-potch of two different practices for different circumstances and had no place on working boats. It's clumsily and messily done, it looks silly and serves no purpose, . . . just another example of people demonstrating how little they know or understand about the traditions they believe themselves to be maintaining.

 

Note added :~ the 'false cratch' is the A-shaped wooden framework that sits on the inner edges of the gunwhales about 3' along from the 'deckboard'.

Its a shame it gets a bit derogatory at the end, but I find that really interesting. Both to know how the top cloths would have been used, and to know where the commonly used rope work style in the photo comes from.

 

Daniel

[DRP]

KarlosMacronius, sorry if this looks like a hi-jack of your thread. Perhaps I should have started a new one "Traditional Ropework :Barges".

 

Giant, now that's the thing I've seen on Yorkshire boats of all kinds - all we need now is someone to show us how to make one!

 

Pluto, were the little fenders on the stern to stop the rudder smacking into the transom in locks? - And patterns for wooden fenders.What would those have looked like?

 

I'm getting the feeling that once they started building Short Boats out of steel, not only did they abandon fancy painting, but they forgot about rope work as well.

 

Perhaps it would be traditional to stick with our collection of grotty old scrap tyres ,after all!

 

David.

[Tony Dunkley]

 

 

 

Spot on Tony - but I have seen a picture of George Wain with the "Fenny" rigged up like that so it wasn't unheard of! Here's Ron Hough with the "Banstead" to underline your point, courtesy CRT collections-

 

A strange coincidence, if ever there was, . . . . that the father-in-law of the man who showed me how and why the topcloth was folded and secured over the cratch, as in the photo above, should have managed to get a photo taken of his motor with an extra redundant white string rigged up round the deck board.

Maybe those who've adopted the modern fad for doing it are mimicking what they've seen in this picture of "Fenny" that you mention. I can't help thinking that George would be highly amused if it turned out that a bit of uncharacteristic eccentricity on his part from many years ago has now been taken up as being a part of working narrowboat tradition.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Tony Dunkley