BSS Live aboard

[Chewbacka]

What I now wonder is this, that if a gas bottle goes up in flames, how do you get it out of the gas locker in the front of the boat? Or do they just explode leaving your boat with 'no nose'? There could be doors fitted to the front of boats (both sides of gas locker) so that you could open to pull a flaming gas bottle out with a rope (already attached to the bottle) so that it can be dropped in the Cut.

Actually if the bottle is leaking gas - which it would to catch fire - then chucking it into the canal is probably not a good idea as the fire will go out, but the gas under pressure will still be escaping and if a big leak it could cause an explosive mixture to sit on top of the water. Best to turn of the bottle valve if you can.

[bargemast]

Gas bottles don't just go up in flames, and tend only to explode when they are exposed to a fire caused by something else. However if you ever did have a fire in the gas locker, I suggest that the best way to deal with it is to run away as fast as you can.

Not an easy decision to take, as a bottle that has been leaking and meets a spark or flame will cause an explosion.

 

A flame at a bottle means that the leaking gas is burning, and if that's the case and you have the courage, closing the tap on the bottle could avoid an explosion and a likely lost boat, or even boats and people if it happens in a marina, or elsewhere where there are people around.

 

If you managed to close the tap, it would be a good idea to cool the bottle down with water.

 

Running away would for sure be a disaster to happen.

 

Peter.

[b0atman]

bottle blowing up is called a blebby (I believe)

[pearley]

Bubble tester would be no good on my boat.

 

 

 

 

It,s all electric.

Ditto for us, and it makes the test cheaper too.

[David Mack]

A flame at a bottle means that the leaking gas is burning, and if that's the case and you have the courage, closing the tap on the bottle could avoid an explosion and a likely lost boat, or even boats and people if it happens in a marina, or elsewhere where there are people around.

.

If there is a flame at the bottle, then the leaking gas is being harmlessly disposed of. So providing the flame isn't going to set light to anything else, the safest course of action might be to let it burn itself out.

Edited January 30, 2016 by David Mack

[Paul C]

What I now wonder is this, that if a gas bottle goes up in flames, how do you get it out of the gas locker in the front of the boat? Or do they just explode leaving your boat with 'no nose'? There could be doors fitted to the front of boats (both sides of gas locker) so that you could open to pull a flaming gas bottle out with a rope (already attached to the bottle) so that it can be dropped in the Cut.

 

I doubt the gas bottle would go up in flames, given its made of metal. However, it may develop a leak at the valve or nearby, and that catch fire (still extremely unlikely though, given there's regulations regarding ignition sources, wiring, etc in a gas locker). Okay so supposing the extremely small chance, I'd say the best chances are to simply allow the fire to continue under control, since it will be stabilised since the flame speed is matched by the gas leak, and eventually it would burn out, or the appropriate authorities who have the means to put out a gas fire, arrive to deal with it.

 

If you're suggesting a door in the side, then not only do you have to handle the bottle, you'd need to disconnect the gas line and the chain/etc which secures the bottle in the locker.

 

Most gas fires become dangerous not because of a gas bottle itself on fire, but a gas leak which is initially not lit, and allows a significant quantity of gas to accumulate.

[cuthound]

I vaguely recall an accident in the 1990's to an Ownerships share boat. Perhaps RobBSS has more details and can correct me if i am wrong, but here is the story as I recall it.

 

The family on board thought they had run out of gas. One person began to change the bottle, but didn't turn the stop valve on the top of the bottle fully off first.

 

As he untightened the connection to the gas bottle, gas been to leak out under pressure. He panicked and pulled the bottle out of the gas locker onto the rear deck of the semi trad boat, knocking the cylinder over in the process.

 

The nozzle was now facing the open rear door of the boat, and the escaping gas began to enter the cabin.

 

Something occurred on the boat to ignite the gas (gas reaching an open flame or someone turning a switch on or off), resulting in an explosion which blew the windows out, moved bulkheads and caused burns to the occupants of the boat. The gas escaping from the bottle was ignited.

 

A brave passerby jumped into the boat and threw the flaming bottle into the cut.

 

No serious injuries occurrd to anyone (minor burns only) and the boat required an internal refit and new windows. The outcome could have been so much worse.

 

Lesson, ALWAYS turn the stop valve fully off before changing a gas bottle.

 

Edited for spillung

Edited January 30, 2016 by cuthound

[Iain_S]

bottle blowing up is called a blebby (I believe)

 

BLEVE

 

Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapour Explosion

[Graham.m]

I doubt the gas bottle would go up in flames, given its made of metal. However, it may develop a leak at the valve or nearby, and that catch fire (still extremely unlikely though, given there's regulations regarding ignition sources, wiring, etc in a gas locker). Okay so supposing the extremely small chance, I'd say the best chances are to simply allow the fire to continue under control, since it will be stabilised since the flame speed is matched by the gas leak, and eventually it would burn out, or the appropriate authorities who have the means to put out a gas fire, arrive to deal with it.

 

If you're suggesting a door in the side, then not only do you have to handle the bottle, you'd need to disconnect the gas line and the chain/etc which secures the bottle in the locker.

 

Most gas fires become dangerous not because of a gas bottle itself on fire, but a gas leak which is initially not lit, and allows a significant quantity of gas to accumulate.

I have a niggle that a gas bottle when heated to a certain temperature will explode and the out rush of gas ignite. Surely this is what the fire service is worried about when it leave a hose playing on gas bottles.

[Paul C]

Yes but I'm not sure how this theoretical gas bottle explosion relates to boating. The above scenario is typical in things like scrapheap fires where significant amounts of combustible materials fuel a large fire, where gas bottles are also located and thus they heat up, becoming a danger themselves. I don't think this scenario occurs in boat fires unless the whole boat goes up (eg solid fuel stove loses integrity and burns the interior contents), in which case I'd say the best scenario would probably be the bottle remains within the gas locker, to avoid it doing damage if it did overheat and explode. If its getting towards the temperature to explode, its going to be way too dangerous to approach, disconnect the bottle and remove it etc.

[Graham.m]

Yes but I'm not sure how this theoretical gas bottle explosion relates to boating. The above scenario is typical in things like scrapheap fires where significant amounts of combustible materials fuel a large fire, where gas bottles are also located and thus they heat up, becoming a danger themselves. I don't think this scenario occurs in boat fires unless the whole boat goes up (eg solid fuel stove loses integrity and burns the interior contents), in which case I'd say the best scenario would probably be the bottle remains within the gas locker, to avoid it doing damage if it did overheat and explode. If its getting towards the temperature to explode, its going to be way too dangerous to approach, disconnect the bottle and remove it etc.

I think in the boat/gas locker situation one has got to asked how did the gas bottle get to be alight. I am sitting here trying to work out a way a gas bottle leak in a gas locker could get light and can only think of one. The gas bottle has leaked gas and as it drained out of the locker drain a spark occurred externally light the external gas and flashed back into the locker. I believe that remote chance would result in an explosion any way. Thus it would be run time.

 

Can you think of another scenario, excluding smoking etc over the gas bottle?

[alan_fincher]

I have had the misfortune may years ago to be using a calor cylinder, (Butane), with a blow torch on a long high-pressure hose, where there turned out to be a leak at the cylinder connector, and it managed to get ignited, (don't ask!). This was at home, not on a boat.

 

This looked like it should be easy to extinguish, but the reality was very different, and when you know something is full of LPG, and you have large flames at the top you can't put out, it tends to upset your calm objective view of the situation(!)

 

We didn't leave it long before we dialled 999, but as we composed ourselves, we realised we just needed a large enough, wet enough blanket to smother the flames. Even so it was a bit of a fight, but we did put it out on our own, before the local brigade arrived.

 

What I do now know is that you can't stand down the brigade once you have called them, and I'm sure they turned on maximum blue light and sirens as the entered our close, just to bring maximum attention to what an idiot I had managed to be!

[Murflynn]

If there is a flame at the bottle, then the leaking gas is being harmlessly disposed of. So providing the flame isn't going to set light to anything else, the safest course of action might be to let it burn itself out.

absolutely.

 

I recall working on the BP refinery on the Isle of Grain in the 60's.

 

I noticed a flame spouting out from a flanged joint on one of several pipes in a pipe track, and I alerted the refinery fire section, then stood at a safe distance to watch the action.

 

The Land Rover auxiliary fire truck arrived and the 2 guys sat in the truck observing the fire. I asked them what they were going to do about it. 'Not a lot' was the reply, 'we've asked Operations to lower the pressure in that line and when the flame dies down the Maintenance guys will inspect the joint'.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Murflynn

[WotEver]

absolutely.

 

I recall working on the BP refinery on the Isle of Grain in the 60's.

 

I noticed a flame spouting out from a flanged joint on one of several pipes in a pipe track, and I alerted the refinery fire section, then stood at a safe distance to watch the action.

 

The Land Rover auxiliary fire truck arrived and the 2 guys sat in the truck observing the fire. I asked them what they were going to do about it. 'Not a lot' was the reply, 'we've asked Operations to lower the pressure in that line and when the flame dies down the Maintenance guys will inspect the joint'.

I would imagine that allowing the gas to burn off as they did was safer than extinguishing the flame and then having flammable gas floating around.

 

Tony

[GreenDuck]

 

I agree that this is pragmatic, and most likely what I would have done....but.......if you explode your insurers may not agree when they realise that you live aboard and enquire as to what basis the gas test was carried out!

 

Just a thought.

 

People moored adjacent may not be too happy either when their (and your) claims on your insurer fail.

 

Just saying, like.....

Good point but is change of use not allowed?

So if you didn't liveaboard when the test is done but two months later "oh I live aboard now"

What defines liveaboard I wonder?

[Ricco1]

Good point but is change of use not allowed?

So if you didn't liveaboard when the test is done but two months later "oh I live aboard now"

What defines liveaboard I wonder?

 

People 'live aboard' houses all their lives, many have access to gas in limitless quantities. Also electricity, solid fuel stoves, all kinds of potentially dangerous things. However they are not required by law to employ a chap with a clipboard every 4 years, at considerable cost, to tell them if their home is safe or not.

 

Until I hear a logical argument as to why this inconsistency is so I'll continue to assume that the BSS, being compulsory as it is, is a shining example of health and safety gone mad.

[Emerald Fox]

 

People 'live aboard' houses all their lives, many have access to gas in limitless quantities. Also electricity, solid fuel stoves, all kinds of potentially dangerous things. However they are not required by law to employ a chap with a clipboard every 4 years, at considerable cost, to tell them if their home is safe or not.

 

Until I hear a logical argument as to why this inconsistency is so I'll continue to assume that the BSS, being compulsory as it is, is a shining example of health and safety gone mad.

 

I don't know is that so, but I would say an inspection, let's say, once a year would be better than every four years - but at a quarter of the price?! (yes,yes, the cost of the inspector getting there, etc.etc.) Buildings do seem to explode now and then:

 

According to the Gas Safe Register, over the last three years there have been 20 deaths and 1,000 gas-related injuries in the UK, with unsafe gas appliances in one in six UK homes.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-34909271

 

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/amazing-footage-house-explosion-fire-4971943

 

I should be happy if a 'professional' checked our boat once a year rather than every 4, for the important things such as gas joints, rubber connecting pipe deterioration, regulator condition, etc. - just a quick look, mind, at the crucial bits.

 

I am also of the opinion that around the canals system there should be dry docks / cranes where passing boats can be removed from the water very quickly for hull inspections and repairs to things like tiller bearings. It's a bit silly needing to book such facilities months in advance - and rather expensive also. What's needed on the canals is 'quick service stations' where anything you want doing can get done.... er.... quickly! Drive in with problem.... drive out happy. (but I have mentioned this before and you all said "Booooo!" )

[Chewbacka]

 

People 'live aboard' houses all their lives, many have access to gas in limitless quantities. Also electricity, solid fuel stoves, all kinds of potentially dangerous things. However they are not required by law to employ a chap with a clipboard every 4 years, at considerable cost, to tell them if their home is safe or not.

 

Until I hear a logical argument as to why this inconsistency is so I'll continue to assume that the BSS, being compulsory as it is, is a shining example of health and safety gone mad.

Actually if it is a rental property a landlord is legally required to ensure "a 12 monthly gas safety check must be carried out on every gas appliance/flue."

The BSS did not choose to treat Residential boats differently to Leisure boats, it is the law. If you are a residential boat and want to use a non gas safe inspector for your BSS then all you need do is have a bubble tester.

[Chewbacka]

 

................... I should be happy if a 'professional' checked our boat once a year rather than every 4, for the important things such as gas joints, rubber connecting pipe deterioration, regulator condition, etc. - just a quick look, mind, at the crucial bits...........................

I would prefer not to have an annual inspection as I do not see the point if one changes pigtails when still less than 5 years old as I would if I had other rubber pipes.

As to soundness of joints etc, I don't wish to have a small leak for months before the inspector finds it so I have a bubble tester and check for leaks every week.

[b0atman]

I have not seen a bubble tester so where does it fit and can I install it myself ?

[nicknorman]

Inside the gas locker, and yes. The only thing is you will need to check for leaks after you have installed it so you'd need to fit another tester. Oh and then you'd need another tester...

 

(Just being facetious!)

[Alan de Enfield]

I have not seen a bubble tester so where does it fit and can I install it myself ?

 

No - not if you are a liveaboard, because that classes as 'work to the system' and you need a gas certificate endorsed with both LPG and 'Boat systems' to cut the pipe & loosen / tighten the nuts.

 

Yes - if you are a leisure user, you can do what you want.

 

If you are living on-board for several months but still paying council tax on a house then you cannot be a 'liveaboard', however if you are an 'in-betweener' then maybe you can DIY as long as someone with a certificate is watching you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The 1st 2 paragraphs are fact, the 3rd paragraph is fiction.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Alan de Enfield

[nicknorman]

No - not if you are a liveaboard, because that classes as 'work to the system' and you need a gas certificate endorsed with both LPG and 'Boat systems' to cut the pipe & loosen / tighten the nuts.

 

Yes - if you are a leisure user, you can do what you want.

You are incorrect. Please cite the law and clause thereof that says this. (Clue: you won't be able to) Edited January 31, 2016 by nicknorman

[Alan de Enfield]

You are incorrect. Please cite the law and clause thereof that says this. (Clue: you won't be able to)

 

I am citing the new (revised) regulation that I believe came into force in 2013.

 

The law says anyone doing gas work and being paid for it (self employed or as an employee) must be approved – i.e. on the Gas Safe Register (GSR).

You do not have to be GSR to do gas work if you are not being paid e.g. in your own home (on a DIY basis though) you just need to be competent.

 

So far, so good, and in agreement with what you have said.

However, there is also a definition of what is considered to be a 'competent person'

 

To be competent to do gas work if you are not actually gas safe registered you must have completed and passed the same training course as those who are GSR. So the very few exceptional people who actually could legally do DIY gas are those who could apply tomorrow to be GSR if they want to: they would be people who were registered but didn’t renew their registration in April because they retired or changed career; they will be employees of a GSR company who do not have GSR in their own right.

 

You may ask where I got this definition from. Conveniently is is in the new draft ACOP

 

To make it easier for you to check I have not just invented it all, I have copied and pasted the section here from the ACOP:

• 57 Anyone who works on a gas fitting…. Therefore, do-it-yourself gas engineers and those performing favours for friends and relatives all need to have the required competence.
• 58 Competence is a combination of practical skill, training, knowledge, experience to carry out the job in hand safely, and ensuring the installation is left in a safe condition for use. Knowledge must be kept up-to-date with changes in the law, technology and safe working practice.
• 60 Gas work should not be undertaken except:

• a) by a person who has successfully completed an industry recognised training course followed by assessment of competence. Training that leads to assessment of competence in safe gas work must be recognised by the industry’s Standards Setting Authority. or
• in the case of a previously Registered person, they have proved competence through a Certification Scheme. or
• c) for those working at premises that fall outside the scope of the Regulations (see regulation 2(4) and associated guidance), by a person who has successfully completed an industry recognised training course followed by assessment of competence.
• 61 Training should be of a standard to enable a gas engineer to achieve competence in the safe installation, purging, commissioning, testing, servicing, maintenance, repair, disconnection, modification and dismantling, of the gas systems, fittings and appliances with which they are working. This should include an adequate knowledge of associated services, such as water and electricity, of the dangers they may give rise to and the precautions to take.

What is 'gas work' ?

 

It is also defined in the Gas Regs: "installing, disconnecting, servicing, repairing of gas pipes and gas appliances" are all activities described as gas work.

 

Work on 'liveaboard boats' comes under the same regulations as houses, therefore my understanding ( I may be wrong, it has been known) is that the above comments and definitions apply.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Alan de Enfield

[nicknorman]

Yes this is is all part of the smoke and mirrors protectionism surrounding amateur gas work. It has as much relevance to the GSIUR as CRT's terms and conditions have to the BW 95 act. It is not law.

 

As far as I am aware, the HSE has no powers regarding your activities in your own home. For example, they have no powers to enter your property for a random inspection.

 

I'll grant you that if your personally installed bubble tester can be shown to have caused the boat to blow up and injure occupants or passers by, you will have an uphill struggle because clearly you weren't competent. But that is an incentive to do it safely.

Edited January 31, 2016 by nicknorman