Pluto Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Well, I've just read through this thread and learnt a great deal. Thank you all. Can't help thinking though that if you like this: and this: then deep down you really want a Humber keel! I think you will find that they are more related to L&LC short boats than keels. The bottom photo is much more like a Lancashire short boat than a Yorkshire keel. Below is the stern of a keel, where the stern post, missing here, clamped the plank ends against the apron such that no spikes were needed. The dead wood was also cut back on keels when motorised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Priest Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Yes you are correct it was definitely Simon, my mistake - too hasty with the keyboard. Talking about Hasty, here is a link: http://www.brinklowboatservices.com/new-builds/steam-tunnel-tug-hasty/ Trawling around the website above does make you wonder why would you want to go elsewhere? NB I have no connection whatsoever to BBS/never met or even seen them - I recognise superior work when I see it. Thank you for your comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Priest Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Build guru Steve Priest mentioned something of much interest earlier regarding the Admiral Class hull ".... in fact, we have now adopted this swim shape in most of the boats that we build." For a chap with his experience, having handled probably all of the different historical boats, that's quite a vote of confidence, and the first time I've heard someone of his standing commit to a preference. I've ordered the drawings from Laurence (no doubt the Italian post will deliver them sometime around Easter), but meanwhile does anyone have any decent photos of the Admiral class rear swim, in particular I'm curious about the shape under the counter stern... Well yes, we find it works, but to clarify, I mean the Yarwoods version, not the Pimblotts. However, one thing that does need tweaking is that I find the clearance between the rudder shaft and sternpost a little tight and I prefer to add a couple of inches to this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 I've seen the lines on Hasty, and I'm sure they are authentic, but to my eye (and for my tastes only) the apex of the shear is too far forward, so the shearline is u shaped and banana like as a result. I've attached the photo that has given me this impression: Surely that is just a function of the ballasting, a matter of personal taste. Less mass at the bow and the apex moves backwards... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 It will, but very very slowly.... it is a personal taste thing, as I mentioned. I'm sure too that it's not a build or a design error, I recall the cut plans were done from CAD files by Nick (Branson Boats) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 It will, but very very slowly.... it is a personal taste thing, as I mentioned. I'm sure too that it's not a build or a design error, I recall the cut plans were done from CAD files by Nick (Branson Boats) I agree, it take fekkin AGES to remove ballast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giant Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 You're right Giant, and that's the point - a buff "spoon" bow is perfect for wide and deep channels, such as the Humber, you'll find the same on many of the European barges - but what's best on these waterways won't be optimised for our narrow UK waters. Yes, I appreciate that - was simply a passing observation from more of an aesthetic perspective than a practical one. I think you will find that they are more related to L&LC short boats than keels. The bottom photo is much more like a Lancashire short boat than a Yorkshire keel. Below is the stern of a keel, where the stern post, missing here, clamped the plank ends against the apron such that no spikes were needed. The dead wood was also cut back on keels when motorised. It might just be the perspective of that shot, but to me that looks like a particularly blunt keel stern. I don't know the hulls of the wooden era well though. There are some lovely shapely sterns on steel ones. This is Southcliffe - built 1923 as a sailing keel and motorised in 1940: And here for comparison is ours, built 1953 with motor: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek R. Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 That's a bit of art. And I see there's a 'lost' Picasso over on the far right. Clever folk these tar brushers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flatplane8 Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 I think you will find that they are more related to L&LC short boats than keels. The bottom photo is much more like a Lancashire short boat than a Yorkshire keel. Below is the stern of a keel, where the stern post, missing here, clamped the plank ends against the apron such that no spikes were needed. The dead wood was also cut back on keels when motorised. Interestingly, that looks very much like an Axiom prop. Nothing new under the sun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Interesting that no matter how blunt the fore end is they normally have quite a fine run aft, much the same as with some of the European barges. Must have worked but when you see a loaded peniche shouldering its way through the water you wonder how it does it (and it's often overtaking you as it does it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pluto Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 The sterns of wooden keels tended to be square at deck level, a shape which could be achieved because of the layout of the frames and the use of hooks, in effect a horizontal frame, made from three pieces, rather than the two used in Lancashire. This is Serenity, a West Country keel. The under water lines allowed a free flow of water to the rudder and propellor, while those towards to top of the hull ensured maximum carrying capacity. They made less wash than most narrowboats, as you would expect from a properly built boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek R. Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Just as most fish are blunt faced and fine tailed, boats that have fine stern swims will move through the water more efficiently, by allowing more water to reach the propelling system in a smooth flow. Those narrow boats (and others) with barely a nod to underwater efficiency, will create considerable wash, especially those built with an angle where the hull sides meet their so called 'swim'. Here's Lou with the PD2 wound on in a comparatively shallow cut. I had to run to get ahead of her. See much wash? The swim, albeit perpendicular, begins just forward of the engine room doors. The bottom counter guard is well under with only half the grey section visible. Nice lines on SERENITY, but was never a fat arsed boat person myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 "the PD2 wound on...." I bet she sounded wonderful! Not ones for cleaning glass I see... The more that I read about the hydrodynamics, the more it appears that the "sink" caused by the shallow water has by far the greater influence for resistance than the bow profile. This could actually be made worse by the spoon bow due to the side entry profile being very similar to a high lift low speed aeroplane wing section. A sharper bow side profile, like most narrowboats, and a shallow V bottom profile will reduce this effect. As for inspirational fish, our own Esox lucius, the freshwater pike, would be a profile most suitable for narrowboats... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek R. Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 She did. Straight through pipe too - no silencer. Tunnels were magic! Pre - port holes! Plenty of light within from sky-lights though. We got there in the end: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 She did. Straight through pipe too - no silencer. Tunnels were magic! That's it! - the magic of tunnels and bridges when you've an historic twin thumping away.. glorious music! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChimneyChain Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 Is this boat now tied up around the Rickmansworth area?? Darren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete harrison Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 Is this boat now tied up around the Rickmansworth area?? Darren Yes, or at least it was the last few times I have seen it - but now Lister JP2 powered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChimneyChain Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 I thought it was and I've seen it loads of times. Once again thanks Pete. Still looks and sound nice. Darren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 Just as most fish are blunt faced and fine tailed, boats that have fine stern swims will move through the water more efficiently, by allowing more water to reach the propelling system in a smooth flow. Those narrow boats (and others) with barely a nod to underwater efficiency, will create considerable wash, especially those built with an angle where the hull sides meet their so called 'swim'. Here's Lou with the PD2 wound on in a comparatively shallow cut. I had to run to get ahead of her. See much wash? The swim, albeit perpendicular, begins just forward of the engine room doors. The bottom counter guard is well under with only half the grey section visible. Nice lines on SERENITY, but was never a fat arsed boat person myself. Despite the minimal wash, I bet the draw was still significant. My boat is similar with a long fine swim, uxter consequently 6" under water, no wash but stacks of draw affecting moored boats I pass even at 1.5mph.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek R. Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) Yes, though that is down to displacement of water in relation to depth and width of cut. YARMOUTH in that guise drew around 2' 6" static. Possibly not related, but the big Tjalk we cruised would be rock solid when tied to the bank and all sorts of craft passing by - except one type. We'd be sitting there supping tea and get joggled about as the 250ton barge would be rocked - by rowers in the skinny little racing skiffs. Not much wider than a bum, draw just a few inches, long and pointy splinters of wood or resin would create such sideways-on ripples at speed that they affected us considerably. Funny old world. Last time I saw YARMOUTH was twelve or more years ago, tied up above Fisheries. She looked a bit sad with brown brass and weeds growing out the sagging fenders. The PD2 broke its crank a short while after we sold in '92 and the JP2 installed, yet the PD stood us good for nearly a decade of cruising from Brentford to Gargrave and some. Edited February 3, 2016 by Derek R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bargemast Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 Yes, though that is down to displacement of water in relation to depth and width of cut. YARMOUTH in that guise drew around 2' 6" static. Possibly not related, but the big Tjalk we cruised would be rock solid when tied to the bank and all sorts of craft passing by - except one type. We'd be sitting there supping tea and get joggled about as the 250ton barge would be rocked - by rowers in the skinny little racing skiffs. Not much wider than a bum, draw just a few inches, long and pointy splinters of wood or resin would create such sideways-on ripples at speed that they affected us considerably. Funny old world. Hello Derek, that 250 ton Tjalk must have been bigger than huge. I've had a big Tjalk (33m x 5m) that had a carrying capacity of 211 ton fully laden. The empty weight of the barge was around 65 ton, and this was a strongly built iron barge (1897). What were the dimensions of your Tjalk ? Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek R. Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 I suspect the 250t was the figure given for gross weight loaded, we only had 80t of Thames wash sand as ballast drawing (from memory) 5' at the stern and 3' at the bow. 34m x 4.83m. I never worked out the carrying capacity alone. She was built in 1889 at Zandaam at 24m length, lengthened in 1939 with a cabin change and coming sides raised for greater capacity, along with specially made stanchions that when erected vertically along the coming, would take the wooden hatch boards lengthwise increasing the bulk carrying even further. Think you might have needed a periscope to see over such a load though!! Had a variety of engines down the years, a Brons being one, ending up with a Gardner 6LW driving through a ZF electro-magnetic box with 4:1 reduction. No idea of the prop size - never had her out of the water. Slow and ponderous would be a fair description. Terrified the holiday makers and gin palaces on Thames. She was our first boat. Sucker for punishment me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bargemast Posted February 4, 2016 Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 (edited) Hi Derek, mine had been lenghtened too, with a flat bottemed and straight sided 10m welded section in the 60s. I bought her in'75, most of these bigger size Tjalks were built in the provinces of Groningen and Drente, Zaandam must have been an exception. In '74 I looked at a Tjalk that was for sale in Zaandam which had the same dimensions as yours, she was named "Jaju" and belonged to 2 elderly bargee brothers who's family name was Koekoek It would be quite a coïncidence if this was the same one as yours, she had a Gardner 6LW with an electric ZF box too. Peter. Edited February 4, 2016 by bargemast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek R. Posted February 4, 2016 Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 "Jaju" was indeed one of her former names, so it's very possible this is the same boat. The previous owner was a Thames Conservancy man who skippered one of the TC VIP launches. The TC man brought her over from Holland and renamed her DELFT, and lathered her up with some surplus TC paint, hence a lot of blue! But we took her back to the name when launched in 1889 - AMICITIA. As far as I were able to discover, it's Latin for 'Friendship'. Frightening the punters: Cookham Lock, heading for the waterways rally at Caversham: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bargemast Posted February 4, 2016 Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 Isn't that a coïncidence ? When you gave her dimensions I could hear bells ringing, as it's far from a standard size, and the Gardner with ZF box even more, as most were equipped in the end with DAF or GM engines. Jaju used to have a fairly big wooden wheelhouse that doubled as the saloon, and sleeping accommodation was below, but that may have been changed of course. I don't know the latin language but the first 3 letters of Amicitia makes:"Ami" which is french for friend, so quite likely that it means friendship. This is another proof that the bargeworld is a small world. Cheers, Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Featured Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now