Right to overstay when reasonable

[MtB]

Yes. I've noticed that.

Some miss the fact that CRT were at one point stating over 3000 boats were not moving as per their cc guidance. However, their very own figures from enforcement a few months later, showed just over 800 actually being issued with restricted licenses. Quite a big gap.

 

 

So we have 800 for sure, and possibly a further 2,200 boats under investigation as candidates for a restricted license when their current license expires (according to Jenlyn's figures).

 

If CRT undertook no 'enforcement' then what proportion of boaters does the board think would just stake out their own bit of towpath and resign their formal paid-for mooring?

 

I'd estimate between 5,000 and 10,000 boaters would be happy to do this.

 

Licence costs would obviously need to rise to cover the lost moorings income to CRT, but by how much?

 

 

 

(Edit to remove an extraneous sentence.)

Edited January 5, 2016 by Mike the Boilerman

[alan_fincher]

It always seems sensible to me that if you are dealing with an organisation you feel is being unreasonable, (or even acting unlawfully), that you do everything you possibly can to behave reasonably and logically yourself.

 

If things do go pear shaped, and, for example, end up in court, it seems logical to me that your case cannot possibly be damaged if you can demonstrate you have acted entirely reasonably throughout, and tried to resolve difficulties, even if you feel they were not of your making, or should not have had to.

 

If you just take the view "they are in the wrong, and I'm not obliged to do anything", and therefore don't do anything, then whilst you may feel you have the moral high ground, it seems far more likely to me that it will end in tears, if you can't demonstrate that you have attempted to seek resolution before things got worse.

I don't think actually negotiating with an organisation you feel is behaving badly is a bad idea, provided you tell them calmly and logically why you feel that, and make sure that is on record.

[jenlyn]

I think the funniest fib from CRT, was geoff whyatt expressing the need for x amount of visitor moorings for batchworth at ricky, because CRT had logged over 200 extra boat movements through the lock there during June, July and August 2013. I pointed out that the iwa festival at Watford probably contributed to this, which he had neglected factoring in.

 

 

So we have 800 for sure, and possibly a further 2,200 boats under investigation as candidates for a restricted license when their current license expires (according to Jenlyn's figures).

 

[mayalld]

Some also like to give an opinion without providing any evidence then get picky when someone else does....

 

And some when challenged to provide evidence were subjected to threats of violence for actually doing so.

[dogless]

This topic is largely making interesting reading (although occasionally drifting into the realms of how long is a piece of string).

I continuously cruise 9 months of the year, and take a mooring for the other 3 months.

I have just left Saltisford and cruised upto Long Itchington.

I am amazed by how few moored boats we have passed.

Many places that always have moored boats (the Cape, Lidls, Leamington, Radford etc) are empty or virtually so.

We did see boats on winter moorings, but the unofficial encampments of previous years seem to have gone.

If this situation has been encouraged by C&RT action in the area, it seems to be having an effect.

Rog

[bassplayer]

There will always be those who push the limits of the law as there will always be those who like to think they own the waterways and create unnecessary restrictions and stress . Realistically some enforcement is needed but I don't think it needs to be on the scale MtB is suggesting. It's a pity you can't enforce against constant moaners.

And some when challenged to provide evidence were subjected to threats of violence for actually doing so.

I must have missed that one. What happened there then?

[alan_fincher]

I am amazed by how few moored boats we have passed.

Many places that always have moored boats (the Cape, Lidls, Leamington, Radford etc) are empty or virtually so.

We did see boats on winter moorings, but the unofficial encampments of previous years seem to have gone.

 

So, this begs the question "where are they all?".

 

It's unlikely that most of boats previously mooring on-line (whether moving on or not), have found offl-ine berths, gone off CRT waters, or been craned out.

 

So presumably if they are not now on the canals or at the hot spots you list, they must largely be moored somewhere else (whether moving on or not).

[NigelMoore]

It reads as though a lone lunatic who's exceptionally careless with his definition of evidence got his few minutes of fame by spinning lies at one meeting.

 

It was an example. It is indicative of an approach sanctioned by the top brass.

 

Employees are encouraged to say what is deemed necessary and to produce their own evidence – whether paperwork or witness statements or ad hoc presentations.

 

I know it seems incredible, but it is not a matter of some lunatic and exceptionally careless employee, it is standard modus operandi. Witness the reaction of Mr Parry when challenged over the forgery produced for court by one of his top managers – it didn’t get relied on in the end, so he considered it “irrelevant”.

 

One of the boats in my care was given a ‘move on’ Patrol Notice for overstaying beyond 14 days, when it had only arrived less than 48 hours previously. The Patrol Officer concerned took the stand and swore on the Bible to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth – and when challenged over this said the boat MUST have been there over 14 days because otherwise he would not have served the Notice [no evidence of patrol sightings, just his word].

 

I, of course, could not prove otherwise either – but he had also sworn under oath that the half dozen other boats he s.8’d had not moved in four months. Challenged on the grounds for his confidence in that statement, he said he knew that to be so because he always used a dictaphone, and he relied on that for the dates and times of sightings.

 

Silly, because for that instance I had all the proof in the world that he was lying, and that the boats had been there just over 4 weeks [on legitimate moorings]. Confronted with the evidence, all he could say to the judge was that he had no explanation!

 

That this was but one employee is again true, but what is more important is to realise that the sworn written Statements he had provided for the court were prepared under the eyes of the legal department and the executive – all of whom knew exactly the true chronology of events.

 

It is also telling that never at any time following the excruciating embarrassment of that episode, did the executive disavow or apologise for, the actions and false evidence of their employee.

 

It is based on such experience [and I have had more] that some of us have come reluctantly to realise that this is a characteristic of the organisation. It is long past time for them to realise how counter productive such tactics are, because trust is lost. Then again, probably few enough come to experience this, so will remain supportive, giving CaRT confidence that the few occasions when exposure is inevitable will make no difference at all.

[dogless]

I assume they are cruising or have taken moorings.

I believe we all 'get away with' what we can, but basically the vast majority of us will stick to the rules.

Just mooring up is attracting interest, so cruising becomes the obvious solution.

Or perhaps I am being over simplistic. Just my observations.

Rog

[bassplayer]

So, this begs the question "where are they all?".

It's unlikely that most of boats previously mooring on-line (whether moving on or not), have found offl-ine berths, gone off CRT waters, or been craned out.

So presumably if they are not now on the canals or at the hot spots you list, they must largely be moored somewhere else (whether moving on or not).

Sucked up by alien spaceships? Well more and more new marinas are appearing and many boats which used to congregate in hot spots have spread out and set up in quiet secluded spots where you might miss them if you blink. It's easier to miss a single boat than an entire row of them. I think more boats have been lifted out now too.

[Rufford]

The real question is, is a good pint considered reasonable grounds to stay longer...

 

Some judges may well agree with that one!

[mayalld]

There will always be those who push the limits of the law as there will always be those who like to think they own the waterways and create unnecessary restrictions and stress . Realistically some enforcement is needed but I don't think it needs to be on the scale MtB is suggesting. It's a pity you can't enforce against constant moaners.

 

I must have missed that one. What happened there then?

 

I suggested that there was a particular mooring site where there was a constant non-moving population, and I was told that this wasn't true, and I should prove it (by somebody who was at the other end of the country)

 

As the mooring site was conveniently situated on my journey home from work, and was easily accessible when we went boating at the weekend, I checked daily which boats were present.

 

After a little over two weeks, I made it clear that I had made observations, and that the vast majority of the boats present had overstayed.

 

I was then told by the same person who told me to prove it that he had told the CMers who I was, and that they know where my boat was, and that I should watch my back.

[haggis]

 

I suggested that there was a particular mooring site where there was a constant non-moving population, and I was told that this wasn't true, and I should prove it (by somebody who was at the other end of the country)

 

As the mooring site was conveniently situated on my journey home from work, and was easily accessible when we went boating at the weekend, I checked daily which boats were present.

 

After a little over two weeks, I made it clear that I had made observations, and that the vast majority of the boats present had overstayed.

 

I was then told by the same person who told me to prove it that he had told the CMers who I was, and that they know where my boat was, and that I should watch my back.

That's just awful! I know that among boaters, like in all walks of life there are "not very nice" people but I didn't think that someone on CWDF would stoop so low as to make a threat like that. OK, we don't all always agree (life would be boring if we did) but it makes me see this forum in a different light knowing that we have someone like that amongst us.

 

haggis

[jenlyn]

 

I suggested that there was a particular mooring site where there was a constant non-moving population, and I was told that this wasn't true, and I should prove it (by somebody who was at the other end of the country)

 

As the mooring site was conveniently situated on my journey home from work, and was easily accessible when we went boating at the weekend, I checked daily which boats were present.

 

After a little over two weeks, I made it clear that I had made observations, and that the vast majority of the boats present had overstayed.

 

I was then told by the same person who told me to prove it that he had told the CMers who I was, and that they know where my boat was, and that I should watch my back.

And they came and took your gate hinges off. Don't forget that bit. Lol

[bassplayer]

 

I suggested that there was a particular mooring site where there was a constant non-moving population, and I was told that this wasn't true, and I should prove it (by somebody who was at the other end of the country)

 

As the mooring site was conveniently situated on my journey home from work, and was easily accessible when we went boating at the weekend, I checked daily which boats were present.

 

After a little over two weeks, I made it clear that I had made observations, and that the vast majority of the boats present had overstayed.

 

I was then told by the same person who told me to prove it that he had told the CMers who I was, and that they know where my boat was, and that I should watch my back.

Well I know we often disagree but I wouldn't wish threats on you. Must have been a bit worrying. I take it it's all blown over now?

[Gwydion]

The real question is, is a good pint considered reasonable grounds to stay longer...

 

Some judges may well agree with that one!

 

Sounds totally reasonable to me.

[MtB]

The real question is, is a good pint considered reasonable grounds to stay longer...

 

Some judges may well agree with that one!

 

 

That surely depends on whether the EO is in the pub drinking with you...

[Loafer]

Does anyone know how to become an Enforcement Officer? Particularly a continuously cruising one?

[onionbargee]

Does anyone know how to become an Enforcement Officer? Particularly a continuously cruising one?

Being a deeply small minded failed ex police officer seems to be a requisite. Edited January 7, 2016 by onionbargee

[bassplayer]

Being a deeply small minded failed ex police officer seems to be a requisite.

Ok...seeing as we're going down a sterotyping route...is it compulsory for an EO to don a moustache?

[Jerra]

Ok...seeing as we're going down a sterotyping route...is it compulsory for an EO to don a moustache?

Only if it is the same style as Hitler's!

[bassplayer]

Only if it is the same style as Hitler's!

I'll set them up and you finish it off.

[WotEver]

Godwin's!!

[bassplayer]

Godwin's!!

Hang on a minute. Are you saying everyone with a tash is like Hitler?

[WotEver]

Hang on a minute. Are you saying everyone with a tash is like Hitler?

Only if it's in the same style.

 

Or maybe if they can't grow one and just stick the end of a comb under their nose...