Jump to content

Query on engine size and bowthruster


barkings

Featured Posts

Hello, my first post, so please be gentle ?

I am a female single hander (24' plastic boat for 5 years) looking to buy a 38'-48' liveaboard narrowboat. I have a couple of queries if anyone could kindly give me some advice please.

 

I feel I'm going to need the security of bow thrusters to help me get front end in/give some assistance in turning. How important/useful are they to single handers, as I am severely limiting my choice of boats by having this on my wishlist. I am sure I have read somewhere that they can't be retro-fitted, is that right?

 

My other question was engine size. I will be going on rivers and the tidal Trent (unavoidable unfortunately). The narrowboats I have seen for sale have anything from 20hp up to 38hp engines. I understand it's all about torque rather than hp, but how do I gauge that and work out the best engine size for river work and the tidal Trent. I feel I would be badly underpowered with a 20hp.

 

I have really enjoyed reading and learning all that this forum offers, It's really helped me to get to the stage of actually buying a narrowboat this next few months and moving on board ready for the summer. Big thank you for that!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi

 

A minefield!!. The tidal Trent is a lovely river and more importantly for engine power is when you use the river such as trying to stem the flood on a spring tide if your timings are out. A 20 hp engine is fine on that size of boat at the right time. Most narrowboats are hugely overpowered which of course does compensate for poor boat handling skills sometimes. The boat is steered by the tiller, a bowthruster just shove the front about a little bit if you are lucky and on a boat as short as that is certainly not needed. Your boating skills will soon become good enough as to not need a bowthruster. If your budget is huge then of course its your money so you will do as you wish but if the budget is limited it would be at the very bottom of my wishlist. A few quid spent with a good and experienced boathandler who also has the ability to pass on his learning would be better spent. My first outing years ago on the tidal Trent was a 56 foot n/b with a 9hp lister, now I wouldnt want to repeat it but quite doable on the correct tide and timing as a for instance. I have a lot of Trent knowledge but Tony Dunkley is your man and hopefully he will come along soon.

Welcome.

Also yes you can retro fit a b/t but that will usualy mean considerable loss of water tank capacity which is of much more use to you than the b/t.

 

Tim

Edited by mrsmelly
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bow thrusters are a bit like a 35 year old listening to radio 2. Many do, but few will admit it.

I have one and rarely use it, but if the front is not quite where I want it when going into a River Severn lock it can save a lot of embarrassment.

That said, if I was buying another boat I would consider it a bonus, but it would not be on my 'must have' list.

 

As to engine power, my boat is 56ft with 43hp. normally chugs along at about 1400 rpm but on the River Severn going against the flow and wanting to get through the next lock before it shuts I will push it up to 2200rpm.

So if you can avoid River cruising when the flow is up a smaller engine will be fine, but if not I would look towards the bigger engines.

Also some boats cooling is more sized for canals, and at high revs for a long period you need to ensure your skin tanks are big enough.

Beta give as a guide 1/4 sq ft of skin tank per horsepower.

More to think about, rather than answering your question.

 

Added - Beta marine guide table is for 30 to 35 hp for the size range (38' to 48') you are considering

http://betamarine.co.uk/engine-selection-for-uk-inland-waterways/

Edited by Chewbacka
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feel perfectly safe with around 35 bhp on a 54 ft narrowboat but then I may, perhaps, be more experienced of reading the water ahead of the boat. On tidal rivers you would normally work the tides so maximum engine power is not as important a sit may seem at first. It will help when trying to turn into places like West Stockwith and Keadby locks.

 

When winding (turning round) in a confined space I often find it easier to hop of the stern of the boat onto the tow path and use stern line to drag the back round and along the towpath. Use he line on the dolly/T stud that will END UP on the towpath side when the boat has been turned. You often have to push the stern away from the bank with your foot.

 

Unless you are boating in high winds I do not understand the need for a bow thruster, either when coming alongside or when moving off. The bow of a narrowboat draws far less water than the stern so I tend to slowly put the bow alongside (if it will go) and then kick the stern in with the rudder and a few revs. When moving off I let go all the lines but leave the stern line lying on the bank. I then walk along the bank and push the font out, finally walking back to step onto the boat and drive the boat off. My wife tend to reverse the boat a little, kick the stern out with the rudder and a burst of ahead, pause a little while the stern drifts out and then use opposite rudder and ahead to "twist" the bow away from the bank. I note many large river trip boats and the IOW fast ferries use this technique for getting away.

 

I can see a bow thruster may make handling easier in strong winds but the pre-supposes it is powerful enough and can be operated for long enough to overcome the wind pressure on the hull and cabin side.

 

I would go with TIm in that not having a bow thruster would not be a deal breaker for me. I suspect you may get better value by spending the money on a decent boat handling course that teaches you how to use the techniques I describe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello, my first post, so please be gentle

I am a female single hander (24' plastic boat for 5 years) looking to buy a 38'-48' liveaboard narrowboat. I have a couple of queries if anyone could kindly give me some advice please.

 

I feel I'm going to need the security of bow thrusters to help me get front end in/give some assistance in turning. How important/useful are they to single handers, as I am severely limiting my choice of boats by having this on my wishlist. I am sure I have read somewhere that they can't be retro-fitted, is that right?

 

My other question was engine size. I will be going on rivers and the tidal Trent (unavoidable unfortunately). The narrowboats I have seen for sale have anything from 20hp up to 38hp engines. I understand it's all about torque rather than hp, but how do I gauge that and work out the best engine size for river work and the tidal Trent. I feel I would be badly underpowered with a 20hp.

 

I have really enjoyed reading and learning all that this forum offers, It's really helped me to get to the stage of actually buying a narrowboat this next few months and moving on board ready for the summer. Big thank you for that!

 

If you have been boating for five years, I doubt you will find a bowthruster essential

 

Richard

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for your helpful replies, that opens the options up a bit!

I must remember to ask/ look at the cooling system too. Would a full boat survey confirm the cooling system on the engine or would I have to trust the broker/sellers advice? Sorry, I really don't know much about engines. I do have someone who will look at boats with me to advise me as much as he can about the engine side of things.

As regards the bowthruster, I think I will probably choose the boat I like best then. By the time I have got it home (will take some crew to fetch it home) I would know a little bit more on how well I can handle it. Hopefully I will get to keep the water storage, I wouldn't really want to compromise that so really useful information, thank you.

I will definitely look into some handling courses, I was reading about those on another thread so will look into those when I finish work in March.

Thanks again,

Jill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Will just give my opinion on the bowthruster query. For a canal boat over say 50 feet length there are situations where they are an asset. Below this not only do you have a more manoeuverable boat, but more room at winding holes as well. On wider rivers the need is even less.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Jill, welcome aboard, don't worry about a bow thruster, it won't take you long to adjust to the different boat. We sold our 40ft x 12ft GRP and moved onto a 60ft NB and at first found it a bit daunting having an extra 20ft to deal with but it soon became 2nd nature, so don't worry about it.

Phil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello Jill, and welcome.

There are one or two things I can add to the sound advice you've already had from Tim and Tony Brooks.

The performance of narrowboats on rivers is something which could be talked and argued about from now until Domesday without really getting a satisfactory answer to the question about horsepower needed for river work, simply because there are so many things other than engine power that affect a boat's performance, such as hull shape/design/draught, propeller diameter/rpm and how well the engine, gearbox and propeller have been matched to each other and to the boat.

Ideally, buy a boat that's got a provable track record of satisfactory river use, or next best thing, buy one that you can try out on the river before buying.

 

If you're going to be on the Trent, a lot, and throughout the year, or any other river come to that, then reliability, and the capability to run all day continuously at full power/speed without overheating is far more important than out and out top speed. Contrary to what may seem to be obvious, is that, after a rainy spell, you'll probably need to run the engine much harder and for much longer when making your way upstream on the non tidal upper reaches than you will ever need to where the river's tidal. Also important for a boat that's going to see frequent river use, is to avoid buying anything that's got permanent hull openings such as well-deck drainage and engine compartment vents too low down and close to the waterline.

 

As for bow thrusters; I'm sure they can be a handy thing to have in some situations, but quite honestly, if you're going to include them on the wish list for the boat you're getting, then put them right at the bottom of it. As Tony Brooks has said, your money would probably be better spent on some boat handling instruction time with someone who knows their stuff. There is an ex RN / river Police boat man in Nottingham called Ray Cullis who now runs boat handling courses. Ray will either provide a vessel for training courses, or he'll come and go through the whole thing with you on your own boat. You can find Ray at ~ www.trentboathandling.co.uk/

 

If you're ever in need of a bit of help with passage planning and timing on the lower Trent and into the Ouse, then I can give you departure times etc for the journey on a day to day basis over the phone, or if you want more assistance, then I do provide a pilotage service for the Trent, Ouse and Humber.

Edited by Tony Dunkley
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for your helpful replies, that opens the options up a bit!

I must remember to ask/ look at the cooling system too. Would a full boat survey confirm the cooling system on the engine or would I have to trust the broker/sellers advice? Sorry, I really don't know much about engines. I do have someone who will look at boats with me to advise me as much as he can about the engine side of things.

As regards the bowthruster, I think I will probably choose the boat I like best then. By the time I have got it home (will take some crew to fetch it home) I would know a little bit more on how well I can handle it. Hopefully I will get to keep the water storage, I wouldn't really want to compromise that so really useful information, thank you.

I will definitely look into some handling courses, I was reading about those on another thread so will look into those when I finish work in March.

Thanks again,

Jill

 

I read and am asked all too often about overheating narrow boats and that confirms my view that not only are there a lot of boats out there with insufficient skin tank area but also a lot where the surveyor never picks it up.

 

Ask some narrowboaters you meet on the canal to show you where their skin tanks are so you can recognise them. Then when you look at boats locate the skin tank and measure its surface area. Then multiply that in sq ft by 4. This gives you a fair idea about the maximum power the tank can cool. In most situations you can get by with a smaller tank without overheating but having the Trent involved means it is best to be cautious so choose a larger rather than smaller skin tank. I would also add try to avoid horizontal skin tanks built on the base plate.

 

The above assumes a baffled tank that is reasonably thin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been boating for 43 years, initially hiring, then 22 years of shared ownership and finally owning a boat outright. Lengths from 45 to 70 feet.

 

Only the boat we bought in 2014 came with a bow thruster. I rarely use it, and only then to either keep the boat straight on long reverses, or to help turn it in windy conditions. Definitely not an essential.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bow thruster isn't essential, but the satisfaction Using it, gets right up some people's noses

just the noise gets people nodding and chattering away in disgust.

 

It's all about the power!!!!

 

They haven't got one

Edited by bigcol
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bow thruster isn't essential, but the satisfaction Using it, gets right up some people's noses

just the noise gets people nodding and chattering away in disgust.

 

It's all about the power!!!!

 

They haven't got one

 

You're misinterpreting their reaction. They're saying 'what a nob' and nodding sagely!

 

b0212.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you've managed on a plastic boat that is probably much lighter and catches the wind just when you really don't want it to you are probably already overqualified to keep a heavy steel boat going where you point it. Bowthrusters are useful, I would like one but it really doesn't bother me much. Engine power? if the boat you are looking at seems to have a reasonable turn of speed without the engine revving its innards out its probably ok, something modern would be desirable though, Japanese diesel would be my choice, others will have different ideas but they will have more spanners than me and like using them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The boat we chose happened to have a bow thruster. We have found after 11 years onboard, that it is most useful in keeping the bow into the side in a double lock whilst waiting for another boat to join us. However the centre rope does the job just as effectively. In strong winds the bow thruster adds limited value to a turn. Strong winds tend to 'trump' everything, if you'll forgive the expression.

 

Frankly we almost never use ours. I would not have it removed but would not bother to have one fitted in a new boat.

Of course, if your boat has one, you can choose to not use it. If you haven't got one there's no choice.

Rog

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm single handed and have a 50'x12' barge. It has a bow thruster but as the batteries haven't been installed for a good number of years I don't use it. It's a nice to have but not needed. Don't be put off a nice boat that doesn't have one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Barkings, please ignore the comments about nobs, it is the usual forumites having a joke and pop at one another. I think comments like Dogless's sum up the sensible position on bow thrusters.

 

I find a strong wind on the side of a narrowboat produces far more force than it ever id on the wooden and plastic cruisers we had on the hire fleet and that take a a lot of manual pulling against, in fact sometimes I can not pull the boat back alongside the mooring jetty with a really strong wind blowing. However typical narrowboat bow thrusters are not that powerful and require a lot of electrical power. They also tend to overheat and cut out unless you pay lots for an engine driven hydraulic one. In really strong winds their effectiveness may be rather limited but ideally your would be tied up until the wind drops to a more reasonable level.

 

As Robbo says "nice to have but not needed".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm looking at a 52ft boat at the moment - and it ticks most of the boxes. The only thing is that is has a bow thruster - and it's almost a deal breaker for me, one more thing to go wrong, one more thing to maintain, one area of likely untreated tube that will rust through etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm looking at a 52ft boat at the moment - and it ticks most of the boxes. The only thing is that is has a bow thruster - and it's almost a deal breaker for me, one more thing to go wrong, one more thing to maintain, one area of likely untreated tube that will rust through etc.

 

 

Deal breaker? There's nothing difficult about a properly fitted thruster even if you can't see an occasion when its handy. However, to answer your concerns:

 

If you don't see any use for a BT, why would it going wrong bother you?

 

If you're not using it, you can preserve it or remove it - zero maintenance.

 

Untreated tube to rust through? Treat it, or cap it off new time you're out for blacking.

 

There - no deal breaker! Enjoy your new boat!! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm looking at a 52ft boat at the moment - and it ticks most of the boxes. The only thing is that is has a bow thruster - and it's almost a deal breaker for me, one more thing to go wrong, one more thing to maintain, one area of likely untreated tube that will rust through etc.

 

After a few boats now can only advocate the KISS philosophy - Keep IT Simple Stupid..

 

The more holes - the more potential problems..... bit like windows and doors in any abode?

 

Good luck in your search

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think if you but a boat with a BT good for you, if you don't need it don't use it.

But it's their,if you need it.

 

I like to ask forum members, has their been a problem with BT tubes rusting through?

 

 

I was not able to manove the boat, and relied on the BT too much.

Now through practice and patience, BT very rarely used now, I feel more confident

But sometimes it has come in handy, for safety mooring up.

But I do now take more time, no rush playing about getting into a gap. And enjoying taking boat out when health is good.

 

Enjoy your boat search, enjoy your boat when you get it

And if it has a BT its a tool, that is nice to have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.