Floods

[Tony Dunkley]

And one we fear has sunk. 7 boats including one of mine from Thwaite Mills made their way down to Fish Pond lock after the breach and now stuck on the over flow. We've been able to get to two of them, but not the others. (CRT have 'professionals' in to move them). As they are in front of the overflow they are not helping with getting rid of the water from the breach. All boats at Thwaite are okay, but you need to wade to get to a few of them.

 

The boats that went down to fish pond look to have no or little damage.

 

Did the river get high enough to have come over and round Knostrop flood gates or over the bank into Knostrop Cut if the bank had still been intact and the flood gates still in place ?

[Robbo]

Did the river get high enough to have come over and round Knostrop flood gates or over the bank into Knostrop Cut if the bank had still been intact and the flood gates still in place ?

It may have gone over the island between the river and cut as it did at Thwaite further down. However I don't believe the overflow would have breached, and even if it did the amount of water that's coming down would be limited.

 

Edit to add image of the flood gates. As this was this morning, yes I do believe the river would have got high enough to go over the gates, but not for a considerable amount of time.

 

Note, not my photo

Edited December 27, 2015 by Robbo

[Robbo]

Looking at this river level you can see when the breach occurred.

[Tony Dunkley]

It may have gone over the island between the river and cut as it did at Thwaite further down. However I don't believe the overflow would have breached, and even if it did the amount of water that's coming down would be limited.

 

Edit to add image of the flood gates. As this was this morning, yes I do believe the river would have got high enough to go over the gates, but not for a considerable amount of time.

 

Note, not my photo

 

It certainly does look likely that the premature breaching of the bank between Knostrop cut and the river back in October/November was what led to the breach at Knostrop lock being far more serious and extensive than it need have been.

Although the level in Leeds did, according to the EA Recorder near Leeds Lock, briefly exceed the previous recorded maximum and there may still have been a little damage done if the cut had been closed off from the river as it always has been, I too, think that the serious breach there now could have been avoided. I wonder who made the decision to break through Knostrop Cut bank before the new moveable weir was completed and in place?

Looking at the sudden drop on that EA graph, there must have been an almighty surge of water downriver when the bank next to the old lock chamber let go.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[Robbo]

Here is a photo of Thwaite Mills

Edited December 27, 2015 by Robbo

[Robbo]

A few of the boats at Fish Pond

Edited December 27, 2015 by Robbo

[leeco]

A few of the boats at Fish Pond

Can't believe they all got down their intact.

[Robbo]

Can't believe they all got down their intact.

It's a wide canal and I think all the bridges are large and tall (they are designed for the big barges), which would have helped in reducing the damage. The canal also gets wider after Thwaite so reducing the flow (it was really flowing at Thwaite (like the river) but hardly at Fish Pond)

[blackrose]

 

And of course as always your opinion overules all others

 

Tim

 

No, it only overrules those who know less about the subject.

 

And of course you are never opinionated about anything and never think you know better than others Tim...

 

If you have any understanding of climate change then challenge me with opinion based on scientific data or evidence, not silly personal comments, because if you do that then I know that your understanding of the subject must be very weak indeed. I have an MSc in Environmental Technology from Imperial College London which included climate studies, so I do have some understanding on which to base my opinion. In fact, it's not even my opinion - it's the opinion of about 98% of climate scientists.

 

Unfortunately Richard, there are many further pictures on RCR Facebook page which just show what a stupid and ignorant comment Blackrose makes above.

 

Which comment was that?

 

Edit: Perhaps you're referring to my comment on the other thread in which I said:

 

"A flooded canal towpath really isn't that much of an issue if you're on a boat unless it rises 2ft over [the towpath]. Anyway, those securely moored on boats are the lucky ones in a flood, it's the people in flooded houses who suffer the most."

 

 

I stand by that comment. The pictures on this thread and on facebook showing overturned boats have either been on waters that have risen more than 2ft above the towpath or the boats weren't moored securely - so they couldn't rise or they came down on something as the waters receded. Those aren't secure moorings in a flood. I don't speak from a position of stupidity or ignorance. I've been living full time on rivers for the past 5 years and spent 3 winters moored on flood waters. I said that people in houses suffer the most in floods and that's because their homes are flooded. The vast majority of the boats which are badly affected by floods like the ones in those pictures aren't occupied, and most liveaboard boaters are on more secure moorings and can prevent that sort of thing happening because they are onboard.

Edited December 27, 2015 by blackrose

[Robbo]

From a drone of woodlesford

[Phil Ambrose]

Watching the news channels and speaking to my Bruv today made me wonder if schemes like we have in the Fens might be worth considering.

We do have high flood banks but more importantly the 3 tributaries that join the River Great Ouse are managed by a cut of channel. This channel goes direct to the outfall at Denver Sluice and it works like this, at times of flood each river has a sluice which is closed and a sluice on the cut off channel is opened. The flood water then takes a direct route to the relief channel at Denver. The water is thus directed away from built up areas and takes the quickest way to the sea.

The rivers are then only effected by a reasonable rose in level and there is no impact on habitations on and around the rivers.

A scheme such as this may be more expensive in the short term but in the long term would be a better bet than trying to second guess how high to build flood walls,my opinion is that you can never beat nature but we can and should try to work with it, as we all know water will always try to take the shortest route so why not help it.

Phil

Edited December 27, 2015 by Phil Ambrose

[leeco]

Some guy was telling me cars had been washed into the cut at lemmonroyed but couldn't really get to anywhere as it was quite bad around there.

Edited December 27, 2015 by leeco

[Laurence Hogg]

Reading and watching the news today as left me with a question re inland waterways.

I wonder how less the problems would have been if proper lock keepers and lengthsmen had been in situ? These guys had the "local" knowledge of how to try and control rising levels and maybe they would have made a difference?

 

What good are Vollockies and towpath tidiers when this happens? and worse how many "let off" paddles now are out of use? I know here on the BCN some haven't worked for a long time.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Laurence Hogg

[leeco]

Readung and watching the news today as left me with a question re inland waterways.

I wonder how less the problems would have been if proper lock keepers and lengthsmen had been in situ? These guys had the "local" knowledge of how to try and control rising levels and maybe they would have made a difference?

Think this is the highest the river aire has risen since records begun.

 

They have been doing a lot too with flood defences in the last few years too.

 

Some which saved lots of houses too.

Sorry for the rubbish pics I will take my Nikon tomorrow's

Edited December 27, 2015 by leeco

[Rambling]

What is the safest way to manage this if you are a live aboard in a boat? Get into a lock before it floods? Stick out an anchor, scaffolding (if you get the time and happen to be able to get to safely in & off your boat? Mud weights away from the bank? Or abandon ship?? I would be terrified stuck on a boat in the middle of that.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Rambling

[mrsmelly]

 

 

No, it only overrules those who know less about the subject.

 

And of course you are never opinionated about anything and never think you know better than others Tim...

 

If you have any understanding of climate change then challenge me with opinion based on scientific data or evidence, not silly personal comments, because if you do that then I know that your understanding of the subject must be very weak indeed. I have an MSc in Environmental Technology from Imperial College London which included climate studies, so I do have some understanding on which to base my opinion. In fact, it's not even my opinion - it's the opinion of about 98% of climate scientists.

 

 

 

Which comment was that?

 

Edit: Perhaps you're referring to my comment on the other thread in which I said:

 

"A flooded canal towpath really isn't that much of an issue if you're on a boat unless it rises 2ft over [the towpath]. Anyway, those securely moored on boats are the lucky ones in a flood, it's the people in flooded houses who suffer the most."

 

 

 

I stand by that comment. The pictures on this thread and on facebook showing overturned boats have either been on waters that have risen more than 2ft above the towpath or the boats weren't moored securely - so they couldn't rise or they came down on something as the waters receded. Those aren't secure moorings in a flood. I don't speak from a position of stupidity or ignorance. I've been living full time on rivers for the past 5 years and spent 3 winters moored on flood waters. I said that people in houses suffer the most in floods and that's because their homes are flooded. The vast majority of the boats which are badly affected by floods like the ones in those pictures aren't occupied, and most liveaboard boaters are on more secure moorings and can prevent that sort of thing happening because they are onboard.

 

There you go again waffling on about some bit of paper you went to school for

 

Tim

[leeco]

Robbo if you need any help let me know and can be there in 15 mins with a few of us.

 

I have a little red boat that might help.

 

07913895916

Edited December 27, 2015 by leeco

[Phil Ambrose]

Robbo if you need any help let me know and can be there in 15 mins with a few of us.

 

I have a little red boat that might help.

 

07913895916

Am I correct in thinking your spill chucker has been helping out and for little red boat we should read "little RIB boat" or rigid inflatable boat

Phil

[leeco]

Am I correct in thinking your spill chucker has been helping out and for little red boat we should read "little RIB boat" or rigid inflatable boat

Phil

I wish it was a rib boat Edited December 27, 2015 by leeco

[tidal]

My sincere sympathies to any fellow boaters affected by these floods.

 

I've spent most of the day spelling my mate and watching the pontoon in the marina rise almost to the very top of the support posts.
At one stage it was dislodging the white cap on the top!

When I left and he took over again the levels seemed to have stabilised and apart from one temporary break away (swiftly retrieved by fellow boaters) nothing bad had happened.

Nothing anything like some of the pictures from further south even if the surrounding village is partially flooded.

 

Hope everyone on here has survived.

[leeco]

https://www.facebook.com/leedsbible/videos/1673654716250879/

Anyone round the Leeds area needs help you have my number and I can get a few of us.

[Rambling]

Interesting reading here about the surrounding peat bogs of Hebden Bridge.

 

http://www.dorseteye.com/north/articles/who-s-messing-with-hebden-bridge-s-vital-flood-barrier

[Phil Ambrose]

I wish it was a rib boat ? image.png

Wow, you're right, that is a LITTLE red boat, I've had bigger in my bath, good luck to you and good on you for offering help.

Phil

[Robbo]

Robbo if you need any help let me know and can be there in 15 mins with a few of us.

 

I have a little red boat that might help.

 

Thank you for the offer of help Leeco.

[The Toad in the Hole]

Interesting reading here about the surrounding peat bogs of Hebden Bridge.

http://www.dorseteye.com/north/articles/who-s-messing-with-hebden-bridge-s-vital-flood-barrier

The situation with blanket peat moorland is slightly more complicated than the description in your article, but there is a strong core of truth. The big issue is with historical gripping (drains) which sends the water off the moor as quickly as possible to promote heather at the expense of other species, however the old canard of peat being like a sponge isn't quite the case either- peat in many ways behaves like concrete, with water running straight off. Healthy peat has very low hydraulic conductivity- most of the apparent absorbsion is via pipes, or underground cracks in degraded peat. To reduce or attenuate those destructive spikes in flood hydrographs, stopping the intensive management of grouse moors is a start, but needs to be coupled with other changes in management, such as removal of sheep in favour of lower intensity grazing or the cessation of grazing alltogether to promote a larger vegetation structure including scrub and trees, particularly downslope away from the peat dome. This will slow down runoff, hopefully removing the damaging extreme spikes - higher river levels for longer, but without the damaging short term extreme flows.

 

However, extreme events are just that, and these measures need to be coupled with both engineering solutions and a re-evaluation of how and where we build, but that requires a change in attitude by planners, house builders and most importantly the prospective inhabitants.