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Sabcat

How do you get your head around people you know dying?

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I love this forum, a thread about how to get your head around people around you falling down dead is now edging towards the question of free will which could well end up as a discussion of quantum physics. (They are connected but you'd need a cleverer person than me to explain how).

 

 

The thread was prompted by a phone call I got the other day telling me a guy I know - a mechanic I've used since I've had cars needing fixing who became a mate over the years - had a heart attack and died. He wasn't out of his 50s and I'd had a brew with him the day before and our usual chat about fast Fords and how all the stuff we sold off cheap back in the day is now worth a fortune. Disconcerting.

 

Dave's ok, he's dead. It's everyone left behind, his wife, his 2 kids, his mates. I suppose the suddenness of it is the most disconcerting part. In some ways it's got my mind ticking more than holding my dad's hand when he took his last breath in February.

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That is either too deep for me or just nonsense.

 

Are you suggesting that your god allows these atrocities for fear of removing our individuality?

 

Again I say the god that allows such atrocities should be despised just as any ruler should.

 

To quote Epicurus:

 

 

Again I'll point out that if he stepped in everytime we did something wrong we may as well be robots.

 

As a human parent I have struggled sometimes to know when I should or should not intervene. Most of the important lessons we learn in life are through making mistakes. Sadly some mistakes are catastrophic but look at how much people come together in those situations to show support for the victims.

 

I'm guessing we agree that humans are at the root of most of the worlds problems then?

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Dave's ok, he's dead. It's everyone left behind, his wife, his 2 kids, his mates. I suppose the suddenness of it is the most disconcerting part. In some ways it's got my mind ticking more than holding my dad's hand when he took his last breath in February.

Yes that is understandable.

 

When I first fell ill a couple of years ago I was rushed to hospital and nobody knew whether I was going to drop dead or not.

 

Two years on they still don't know what's wrong but I'm fairly confident that my demise isn't imminent (well not because of my illness at least).

 

The time between there and now has been spent reflecting on what my swift demise would mean to other people and has prompted me to contact many folk who were on my "get round to" list.

 

It has also meant my ambitions have been streamlined somewhat.

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I love this forum, a thread about how to get your head around people around you falling down dead is now edging towards the question of free will which could well end up as a discussion of quantum physics. (They are connected but you'd need a cleverer person than me to explain how).

 

 

The thread was prompted by a phone call I got the other day telling me a guy I know - a mechanic I've used since I've had cars needing fixing who became a mate over the years - had a heart attack and died. He wasn't out of his 50s and I'd had a brew with him the day before and our usual chat about fast Fords and how all the stuff we sold off cheap back in the day is now worth a fortune. Disconcerting.

 

Dave's ok, he's dead. It's everyone left behind, his wife, his 2 kids, his mates. I suppose the suddenness of it is the most disconcerting part. In some ways it's got my mind ticking more than holding my dad's hand when he took his last breath in February.

:( I'm sorry to hear that. I suppose we are all on some kind of journey. None of us know for sure where it ends...that is if it does end...

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As a human parent I have struggled sometimes to know when I should or should not intervene. Most of the important lessons we learn in life are through making mistakes. Sadly some mistakes are catastrophic but look at how much people come together in those situations to show support for the victims.

If you behaved like your god then you would just let your kids get on with it without a care in the world.

 

I often wonder if the afterlife is so different why does your god feel it is okay to intervene there rather than stop the suffering here.

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Back to the original question.

 

When you loose or it loose as if you will loose someone close to you you will go into some sort of shock and probably feel awful for weeks or months. It is best to accept that will happen before the event and try to concentrate on each day as it comes.

 

When they are not so close I find that often I can be pleased their suffering (be it mental or physical) has ended but in any case try to offer support to those who are left.

 

I find it helps a lot if you can accept your own and others mortality and will die eventually, that way you are prepared when they do.

 

Its a bit of a shocker when you are at a funeral and you realise that your age makes you the probable next one.

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If you behaved like your god then you would just let your kids get on with it without a care in the world.

 

I often wonder if the afterlife is so different why does your god feel it is okay to intervene there rather than stop the suffering here.

Well I suppose that's where prayer comes into play...or just pointing your fist into the sky and shouting "WHY" sometimes. If one of my kids asks for help I always try to help so long as it's not a Porche they want...can't afford one...

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sad.png I'm sorry to hear that. I suppose we are all on some kind of journey. None of us know for sure where it ends...that is if it does end...

 

Don't feel sorry for me, not in particular anyway. We're supposed to bury our parents, that's the way of things, a shared experience. Save particular sympathy for the exceptions, people who lose children for example, something that shouldn't happen.

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Well I suppose that's where prayer comes into play...

Does it?

 

So prayer can stimulate your god into acting?

 

So why doesn't it work for the big stuff...?

 

Talking to yourself or waving a fist at the sky may have a therapeutic effect when you are feeling crap but it is no evidence for the existence of a benign, omnipotent, omniscient deity who doesn't show any interest in its creation.

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Does it?

 

So prayer can stimulate your god into acting?

 

So why doesn't it work for the big stuff...?

 

Talking to yourself or waving a fist at the sky may have a therapeutic effect when you are feeling crap but it is no evidence for the existence of a benign, omnipotent, omniscient deity who doesn't show any interest in its creation.

he might but we would not know, he might have a quick peek think its all gone wrong snuff us all out and start again like the dinosaurs. the point is you never know until you are gone then if you wake up and the devil is prodding you or 100 virgins are waiting to be deflowered etc you know there is something else thats why its called faith

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Went to a friend's funeral last week and everyone there was either a boater of someone with very close connections to the waterways, (even the vicar conducting the service was a boater). He had chosen just how the day was to go and made it very clear before his passing that it was not to be a sad occasion. Consequently it was not, it was a gathering of friends celebrating a well lived life. Being so meant that all those awkward moments that can easily occur at funerals just didn't happen. Best funeral I have ever attended

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OK here's my take (so far) on the ultimate truth, or if you like reality.

 

It's mainly aimed at Carl, it's not up for debate, that would involve endless posts, but it's to clear any misunderstanding of my beliefs. Read it and/or dismiss it as the ramblings of an idiot if you like, I really don't care.

 

We are the Light

What is the Light?

It is 'That Which Is' - TWI

TWI is powerful, creative and loving.

It is vibrating at the highest frequency so gives off the brightest whitest light that exists.

It is all there is and it doesn't have a name.

It is conscious of who and what it is

The thing is, though it knows what it is, it doesn't know what it feels like to be what it is, i.e. powerful, creative and loving. (knowing and feeling are two different things.)

It realises that to know that feeling it must first experience 'That Which Is Not' - TWIN (To know what it feels like to be warm we must know what it feels like to be cold!)

But nothing else exists, only the Light exists so there is no darkness, or if you like, TWIN

Therefore TWI creates TWIN in all its countless forms, i.e. The Universe and all that lives in it, This Universe could be thought of as a vast interactive computer game, real but not ultimately real, I'll quote from the book Eastern Religions And Western Thoughts by Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan 1888 - 1972 (an Eastern Mystic who was Vice President of India 1952 - 1962 and President of India 1962 - 1967)

"The objective world exists. It is not an illusion. It is real not in being ultimate but in being a form, an expression of the ultimate. To regard the world as ultimately real is delusion"

TWI then divides itself into countless fragments, each fragment experiencing what it is like to be one of those living things so that it can see itself as it really is, it will have contrast to enable it to see its own Light

We are, each of us, unique individuals but we are also one.

Let me use an example to illustrate:

Imagine a sheet of glass with a holographic image set into it, drop the glass and it shatters into hundreds of fragments and the image appears to be gone, yet if we look carefully we will see that each fragment is unique, no two are alike, and yet, here's the thing, each one contains the entire image - the image is many and is also one.

To experience TWIN, TWI must believe it is TWIN, it must forget for a while who it really is. You may ask how does TWI not permanently forget who it really is? The answer I think is most or some of TWI remains together, only sending a finite number of parts of itself to experience TWIN, operating a sort of 'shift' or 'rota' system to take turns with the task, after all, the love that is TWI wouldn't expect any part of itself not to undertake a task?

Therefore it is we who are the Light, experiencing this self imposed 'spiritual amnesia', fully believing that we are separate beings and that our ego or self image is who we really are, that we are a function of our brain and body.

By discovering our ego is false we then begin to realise we are not who we think we are and hopefully go on to realise who we really are. In short, we have to construct a false self image/ego in order that we can abandon it. That is our purpose in life, to realise and recognise who we really are by the process of first realising who we are not.

We can accomplish this by doing kind, caring and loving acts for others so that our Light begins to show (hence the saying 'to see the light'!) TWI can see itself better if the Light is separated into small pieces (otherwise it won't be able to see the trees for the wood - a bright shining candle that is amongst many other equally bright shining candles cannot see itself, it is overwhelmed, so has to be surrounded by darkness)

Ego/self image is constructed by our amnesiac soul thinking it is alone and yearning for an identity, so If we don't recognise it as being false or imagine it just disappears after bodily death, then when our body dies we will find that self image still intact, in that case we will either retreat into ourselves and/or create another body to prolong the image. Only through physical life in TWIN can we realise our true self.

There is no right or wrong, no reward or punishment, our actions are either functional or dysfunctional, either helping or hindering, in our efforts to achieve our mission. If we fail to realise who we really are in our personal lifespan we shouldn't fret, we are all one so are creating countless other lives to accomplish that goal. Time doesn't exist, it has been created by us to experience TWIN (to know what it feels like to be mortal, powerless and vulnerable)

Every individual lifespan throughout so called 'time' is just ourselves experiencing TWIN in all its many different forms, each of us feels what it is like to be 'the good guy' and also 'the bad guy' plus all the shades in between. 'Good' or 'right' and 'bad' or 'wrong' are two ends of a spectrum, if good is represented by white and bad by black there are countless shades of grey in between (which also suggests that there is only one true white and one true black!)

If we are willing we can, if we really want to, take a second step by imagining what we would really like to become. From that point we can, again if we choose, decide to step up and try to achieve that - takes some 'bottle'! (which I suppose, amongst all our many forms, or if you like, shades, we are doing it anyway, ha ha!)

TWI doesn't have a name, but I like the word 'God'

I am God

You are God

We are God

Everyone is God

We are God evolving, a never ending quest to reach maturity, not one single soul/fragment is abandoned, it's impossible. Every 'one' will make it.

'Love Unconditional' is concern for the wellbeing of ourselves and the living universe we have created.

Show your Light with Love Unconditional so that others will see it is ok to show their Light - the one and only Light.

We, God the Light = Love Unconditional = Love in it's purest form.

...or just try to be nice.. ;)

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OK here's my take (so far) on the ultimate truth, or if you like reality.

 

It's mainly aimed at Carl, it's not up for debate,

Of course it is up for debate.

 

It is probably the most debated questions ever.

 

Just because you choose not to debate it doesn't stop others from doing so.

...or just try to be nice.. wink.png

with no requirement for spiritual claptrap that others can reinterpret for their own evil ends.

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Of course it is up for debate.

 

It is probably the most debated questions ever.

 

Just because you choose not to debate it doesn't stop others from doing so.

 

with no requirement for spiritual claptrap that others can reinterpret for their own evil ends.

.. and when you have eliminated religion then the world will obviously be a peaceful crime free place

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Of course it is up for debate.

 

It is probably the most debated questions ever.

 

Just because you choose not to debate it doesn't stop others from doing so.

 

with no requirement for spiritual claptrap that others can reinterpret for their own evil ends.

Is it just me or does there always seem to be some underlying anger behind many of your posts? Maybe it's the use of words or something.

 

Not everyone who has a faith has been brainwashed at such an early age to believe that killing other humans is what God wants. As someone else mentioned, how come it's the young who commit these acts and not those who lecture them?

 

 

Anyway, wrong thread!

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Of course it is up for debate.

 

It is probably the most debated questions ever.

 

Just because you choose not to debate it doesn't stop others from doing so.

.

Yes, I meant that I didn't want to debate it, others of course can if they wish. I can't prove one bit of my belief, after all if it were provable it would defeat the whole system from the outset.

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...with no requirement for spiritual claptrap that others can reinterpret for their own evil ends.

No, I think 'just being nice' stands on it's own without any athiest claptrap...

 

I don't mean that BTW, just showing how words can hurt...

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Is it just me or does there always seem to be some underlying anger behind many of your posts? Maybe it's the use of words or something.

No I'm not angry.

 

I am offering a calm reasoned debate against the existence of god.

As someone else mentioned, how come it's the young who commit these acts and not those who lecture them?

Is the mature person who advocates these "god sanctioned" atrocities any less evil than the young person who acts on those words?

Not everyone who has a faith has been brainwashed at such an early age to believe that killing other humans is what God wants.

I never said that it did.

No, I think 'just being nice' stands on it's own without any athiest claptrap...

 

I don't mean that BTW, just showing how words can hurt...

That doesn't hurt me in the slightest.

.. and when you have eliminated religion then the world will obviously be a peaceful crime free place

No when you've eliminated the human race the world will be a peaceful crime free place.

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Is the mature person who advocates these "god sanctioned" atrocities any less evil than the young person who acts on those words?

 

Who said they are God Sanctioned? Isn't it greedy people with an ego who are manipulating those through religion.

 

Regarding maturity, my gut feeling is that those brainwashing the young are the more at wrong. Was the guy who dropped the bomb on Hiroshima bad?

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Who said they are God Sanctioned? Isn't it greedy people with an ego who are manipulating those through religion.

Why do you question their faith?

 

Why do you think anyone should respect your faith when you show none for those who disagree with your concept of god?

 

Is there any greater act of faith than to sacrifice yourself for what you believe in, however misguided and evil others may think those beliefs are?

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Considering what has been going on in god's name over the past few days I don't see anything ever getting in the way of my atheist views.

Things get done in god's name, but I think she can speak for herself.

Edited by Bones

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No I'm not angry.

 

I am offering a calm reasoned debate against the existence of god.

Is the mature person who advocates these "god sanctioned" atrocities any less evil than the young person who acts on those words?

I never said that it did.

 

That doesn't hurt me in the slightest.

 

No when you've eliminated the human race the world will be a peaceful crime free place.

 

It will be crime free because crime is a human invention, but it certainly won't be peaceful!

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Why do you question their faith?

 

Why do you think anyone should respect your faith when you show none for those who disagree with your concept of god?

 

Is there any greater act of faith than to sacrifice yourself for what you believe in, however misguided and evil others may think those beliefs are?

I question my own faith more than I do others. Isn't that what you are doing to me anyway?

 

I do respect the views of others, it's partly the reason I got to here. To make out I have no repect for others is just another childish attack on your part but like you I will attempt to defend my views (but at the same time be willing to change them if it seems closer to the truth..whatever it is!).

 

Regarding sacrifice. There is a difference between needless sacrifice and worthwhile sacrifice. Only we can work that out for ourselves if the time ever came.

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To make out I have no repect for others is just another childish attack on your part

I do apologise but...

 

Isn't it greedy people with an ego who are manipulating those through religion.

Seems somewhat disrespectful of someone's declared faith to me.

 

No less disrespectful than my criticism of all faiths, regardless of fluffiness or aggressiveness.

 

The hypocrisy of the "faithful" is that they are just one god away from atheism (edited to add: apart from the multi-deity faiths of course...now they are greedy.).

Edited by carlt
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