To charge, or not to charge?

[PaulG]

It seems that I usually have to give this earning at this time of year. We have had an instance reported of one insurance company having a clause that said they would not pay out in respect of damage attributed to heaters NOT certified (CE marked) as for marine use. It is almost certain that any heaters supplied for domestic or greenhouse use not be so certified, especially if any extra controls have been added.

 

If you intend to use electric heaters when you are away from the boat please read your insurance policy carefully to make sure you will be covered.

 

Personally I think this might have been from an insurer more used to dingy and lumpy water insurance who do not understand narrowboats but better safe than sorry if the worse happens. My policy does not seem to include such a clause. I think the insurer in question was the one who would not cover me and the boat for use without payment by members of my family.

Good point Tony. My insurance does not contain this clause, either.

[Grebe]

Hi again Nick,

 

I've kept out of the Inverter/Combi/Charger issue because I have no experience of them. Grebe just has a caravan/motorhome hook-up harger fitted. I would however remind you about the batteries.

 

However you choose to keep you battery pack topped up you must remember to check them on a regular basis and top up any cells. Chargers can accelerate the failure of any cells that are starting to fail.

 

[NickAndAnne]

It seems that I usually have to give this earning at this time of year. We have had an instance reported of one insurance company having a clause that said they would not pay out in respect of damage attributed to heaters NOT certified (CE marked) as for marine use. It is almost certain that any heaters supplied for domestic or greenhouse use not be so certified, especially if any extra controls have been added.

 

If you intend to use electric heaters when you are away from the boat please read your insurance policy carefully to make sure you will be covered.

 

Personally I think this might have been from an insurer more used to dingy and lumpy water insurance who do not understand narrowboats but better safe than sorry if the worse happens. My policy does not seem to include such a clause. I think the insurer in question was the one who would not cover me and the boat for use without payment by members of my family.

Thanks Tony - added to the list to check!

Hi again Nick,

 

I've kept out of the Inverter/Combi/Charger issue because I have no experience of them. Grebe just has a caravan/motorhome hook-up harger fitted. I would however remind you about the batteries.

 

However you choose to keep you battery pack topped up you must remember to check them on a regular basis and top up any cells. Chargers can accelerate the failure of any cells that are starting to fail.

 

Again, good advice, thank you!

 

I think I will probably not leave the batteries on charge. I know that last winter the boat sat in the marina the whole time and was never looked at - we viewed in September, and again in February and it was very clear that no-one had even been aboard in the intervening period. Yet the boat started on the first crank, so the batteries certainly didn't seem to have suffered as a result of just being left all winter.

 

We also plan to use the boat at weekends etc over the winter, so the batteries will get charged from time to time by going out. If they do seem to get low, then I can charge them on mains power if required.

[Paul C]

Personally I'd "take control" back by splitting the shoreline input before it even gets to the charger/inverter, then having a consumer unit (with RCD and MCB of its own) and a couple of sockets and/or space to permanently wire items (such as immersion heater) so that you can KNOW that nothing is powered by mains (therefore, likely to flatten your batteries if/when the shoreline is lost or trips out etc etc) when the boat is left unattended. I know its more wiring, more components, more ££££ etc and you need to find space for the stuff but it gives you the proper control over what's going on unattended, and the reassurance its not going to kill the batteries.

[PaulG]

Yet the boat started on the first crank, so the batteries certainly didn't seem to have suffered as a result of just being left all winter.

You should appreciate that it only indicates that there was enough charge in the starter battery for one start.

It's not necessarily a good indication of overall battery condition.

You usually have a second set of batteries for the "domestic" side - these are the ones that become discharged the most in general use.

[NickAndAnne]

Personally I'd "take control" back by splitting the shoreline input before it even gets to the charger/inverter, then having a consumer unit (with RCD and MCB of its own) and a couple of sockets and/or space to permanently wire items (such as immersion heater) so that you can KNOW that nothing is powered by mains (therefore, likely to flatten your batteries if/when the shoreline is lost or trips out etc etc) when the boat is left unattended. I know its more wiring, more components, more ££££ etc and you need to find space for the stuff but it gives you the proper control over what's going on unattended, and the reassurance its not going to kill the batteries.

This is certainly another option. To be honest, I am now in two minds about putting the heater on board anyway. When we visited the boat in February it was well below freezing outside, and had been for many days/nights, but inside the boat was quite warm (actually that's an exaggeration, but relatively!). There was no damp, and I concluded that it was pretty well insulated.

 

If all I have to do when I use the boat during the winter is to put some water in, and then drain the tank when I get back, then I don't think that is too onerous.

You should appreciate that it only indicates that there was enough charge in the starter battery for one start.

It's not necessarily a good indication of overall battery condition.

You usually have a second set of batteries for the "domestic" side - these are the ones that become discharged the most in general use.

 

Fair point, the surveyor tested the batteries as well, and reported them in good condition, including the domestic bank.

 

Had no electrical/charge problems this year (now I've said it, of course that's the kiss of death!) so I think the condition is ok.

[Paul C]

How far away from the boat's location are you, and how often or easily can you get to it to check it? Another option is this:

http://gsm-secure.co.uk/GSM-Control--and--Monitor.php

You could leave the battery charger on, and it will monitor basically anything you like, but easily: battery voltage and temperature. Then instead of visiting the boat weekly (and realistically, you're just visiting to check the water's not burst, the batteries aren't flat, and its not broken into?) you could visit much less frequently and text the boat to check its wellbeing.


I take it you've already thought of monitoring the environment within the boat while you're not there with something like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UK-Mini-LCD-Digital-C-F-Thermometer-Hygrometer-Max-Min-Memory-Celsius-Fahrenheit-/171354949114

[mango]

It seems that I usually have to give this earning at this time of year. We have had an instance reported of one insurance company having a clause that said they would not pay out in respect of damage attributed to heaters NOT certified (CE marked) as for marine use. It is almost certain that any heaters supplied for domestic or greenhouse use not be so certified, especially if any extra controls have been added.

 

If you intend to use electric heaters when you are away from the boat please read your insurance policy carefully to make sure you will be covered.

 

Personally I think this might have been from an insurer more used to dingy and lumpy water insurance who do not understand narrowboats but better safe than sorry if the worse happens. My policy does not seem to include such a clause. I think the insurer in question was the one who would not cover me and the boat for use without payment by members of my family.

Mains voltage electric heaters must conform to the relevant standards and be CE marked to be sold in the EEA. Unfortunately there are plenty of counterfeit electrical products on sale. Contact Trading Standards via Citizens Advice to report dodgy products, but don't assume they will take action for a single example.

[Paul C]

heaters .... certified (CE marked) as for marine use.

 

Tony can you copy and paste the insurance small print, as far as I know electrical equipment is either CE approved, or it isn't. The CE approval doesn't come with restrictions - but of course a manufacturer may suggest or specify additional conditions, eg "for indoors use only".

[Bod]

I do the standard winterising, of draining all water from the hot/cold system, removing the pipes from the water pump,(drains the pump fully) check anti-freeze in engine and heating system.

Batteries are left on charge, via 7day timer on shore line. (2 days on charge, 5 off charge)

Pump-out empty.

Diesel tank full.

Visit boat at least once a month. It's in a marina.

Only had 1 split pipe in 5 years.

No heat, leave at least 2 windows open.

 

Bod

[NickAndAnne]

How far away from the boat's location are you, and how often or easily can you get to it to check it? Another option is this:

 

http://gsm-secure.co.uk/GSM-Control--and--Monitor.php

 

You could leave the battery charger on, and it will monitor basically anything you like, but easily: battery voltage and temperature. Then instead of visiting the boat weekly (and realistically, you're just visiting to check the water's not burst, the batteries aren't flat, and its not broken into?) you could visit much less frequently and text the boat to check its wellbeing.

 

 

I take it you've already thought of monitoring the environment within the boat while you're not there with something like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UK-Mini-LCD-Digital-C-F-Thermometer-Hygrometer-Max-Min-Memory-Celsius-Fahrenheit-/171354949114

 

They both look like good ideas. This year we are moored in a marina that is only 10 mins from home, so we do tend to visit a few times each week even if we don't go anywhere.

 

I think in a year's time though we might moor somewhere else to give us a different cruising area, and something like this would be a great piece of mind if the boat is further away and our visits less frequent.

 

Thanks Paul!

I do the standard winterising, of draining all water from the hot/cold system, removing the pipes from the water pump,(drains the pump fully) check anti-freeze in engine and heating system.

Batteries are left on charge, via 7day timer on shore line. (2 days on charge, 5 off charge)

Pump-out empty.

Diesel tank full.

Visit boat at least once a month. It's in a marina.

Only had 1 split pipe in 5 years.

No heat, leave at least 2 windows open.

 

Bod

That's a great checklist, thank you! I have a second pump that is used to empty the shower tray - presumably I should disconnect this one as well.

[ditchcrawler]

That's a great checklist, thank you! I have a second pump that is used to empty the shower tray - presumably I should disconnect this one as well.

I poor a salt solution down mine after I finish draining the system as I do that through the shower pump.

[Tony Brooks]

 

Tony can you copy and paste the insurance small print, as far as I know electrical equipment is either CE approved, or it isn't. The CE approval doesn't come with restrictions - but of course a manufacturer may suggest or specify additional conditions, eg "for indoors use only".

 

No, none of mine have had that clause but if you can make the forum search function work you should be able to find several threads about it.

[Paul C]

 

No, none of mine have had that clause but if you can make the forum search function work you should be able to find several threads about it.

 

The search function was fixed ages ago.

[Tony Brooks]

 

The search function was fixed ages ago.

 

That's as maybe, It has always run (rather than worked) for me but composing the search phrase and then finding the topics you are looking for I find is less than ideal. I doubt you or anyone other then the forum software authors can do much about it though.

[Paul C]

 

That's as maybe, It has always run (rather than worked) for me but composing the search phrase and then finding the topics you are looking for I find is less than ideal. I doubt you or anyone other then the forum software authors can do much about it though.

 

I think we need to put issues whether the search engine works for you, or not, to one side. There was an issue with it, which was resolved and now it works for everyone else exactly as it should. If you feel it doesn't work, or you can't use it properly, start a thread in the appropriate sub-forum: http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showforum=3

 

Going back to the original point (post #25), you've suggested that some insurance T&Cs have some kind of exclusion for non-marine heaters left on boats - I'd be interested to see the details of this. You've already said your own insurance doesn't have a clause, so I'd be interested to hear from others.

[Sea Dog]

If boater A (perhaps representative of the majority of us) winterises his (or her) boat, ventilates it appropriately and has a decent multi stage battery charger, they'll get through a pretty harsh UK winter without problems. Lots of us can attest to that; I certainly can but my boat is rarely unused for more than maybe 6 weeks in the depths of winter and usually not that long. Nevertheless, many leave their boats like that for the whole season with no ill effects, right?

 

Boater B who wants regular instant availability throws in some heating instead of winterising, and so pays extra for that convenience. That wouldn't be without risk in case of a power failure, so maybe we wouldn't do that outside of an end of garden mooring or where neighbours are watching out, but there's a case for it.

 

So, boater C (a significant proportion of us) winterises and adds, say, a kilowatt of thermostatically controlled heating on top. What does boater B get for the extra investment that boater A doesn't have within an hour so of lighting the stove, running the heating, switching on the electric blanket, or whatever? I.E. A toasty boat with services available and all ready to go. Is it purely a peace of mind thing or are there tangible benefits?

 

I ask because I, like many other "boater As" I suspect, have umm'd and ahh'd about adding heating every winter but never done so and I'm now umming and ahhing about whether to even bother umming and ahhing!

[NickAndAnne]

If boater A (perhaps representative of the majority of us) winterises his (or her) boat, ventilates it appropriately and has a decent multi stage battery charger, they'll get through a pretty harsh UK winter without problems. Lots of us can attest to that; I certainly can but my boat is rarely unused for more than maybe 6 weeks in the depths of winter and usually not that long. Nevertheless, many leave their boats like that for the whole season with no ill effects, right?

 

Boater B who wants regular instant availability throws in some heating instead of winterising, and so pays extra for that convenience. That wouldn't be without risk in case of a power failure, so maybe we wouldn't do that outside of an end of garden mooring or where neighbours are watching out, but there's a case for it.

 

So, boater C (a significant proportion of us) winterises and adds, say, a kilowatt of thermostatically controlled heating on top. What does boater B get for the extra investment that boater A doesn't have within an hour so of lighting the stove, running the heating, switching on the electric blanket, or whatever? I.E. A toasty boat with services available and all ready to go. Is it purely a peace of mind thing or are there tangible benefits?

 

I ask because I, like many other "boater As" I suspect, have umm'd and ahh'd about adding heating every winter but never done so and I'm now umming and ahhing about whether to even bother umming and ahhing!

 

 

For me the question was more about the degree of 'unwinterising' needed. Others have mentioned disconnecting pumps, which is fine if you are technically competent! I am sure I could disconnect a pump ok, but probably couldn't guarantee that it wouldn't leak when I connected it up again!

 

I have also seen calorifiers disconnected (from the domestic supply rather than the heating coil) and in my head this all adds up to more than an hour or so.

 

Just me, I'm afraid but my wife will tell you that she cowers in fear of the damage I am about to inflict every time she sees me open the tool box!

[Top cat]

To "Winterise" our boat which is moored at the bottom of the garden and gets some use all through the winter I do the following.

 

Monitor the internal and external temperature in and by the boatvia a radio linked thermometer to the house.

 

Turn off the water pump

Deprssurise the water system drain down the shower head and kitchen tap.

Fill the water tank to half full and close the stop cock.

Turn off the gas.

Clean the multifuel stove, sweep then cap the chimney.

Check the antifreeze strength in both engine and central heating, top up if req.

Fit 2Kw oil filled heater in bathroom set to 5 degr fed from on shore mains via switch in garage.

Fit a 2.4W solar panel to the engine battery to keep it topped up.

Monitor the domestic battery to check the 130W solar panel is maintining float voltage (it always has)

 

When it looks like we are getting a frost I monitor the temperature in and near the boat, if I think the interior of the boat is getting too low I switch on the heater from the garage.

 

This has worked for the last 5 years, whether we will get away with it this year is to be seen.

If we want to go out mid winter I usually start the multifuel stove and an electric blanket on the bed the night before we leave.

 

This only works because we can check the boat anytime, remote operation would require a different approach.

 

Top Cat

[Tony Brooks]

 

I think we need to put issues whether the search engine works for you, or not, to one side. There was an issue with it, which was resolved and now it works for everyone else exactly as it should. If you feel it doesn't work, or you can't use it properly, start a thread in the appropriate sub-forum: http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showforum=3

 

Going back to the original point (post #25), you've suggested that some insurance T&Cs have some kind of exclusion for non-marine heaters left on boats - I'd be interested to see the details of this. You've already said your own insurance doesn't have a clause, so I'd be interested to hear from others.

 

All I intended to do was to warn that searching might not be as easy as it could be. When I am about to go out I am not going to spend my time trying to do a search when all that is needed is that readers look at their own insurance policies. I note that you do not seem to have used the search facility to find the topic (actually topics I think) that you are interested in.

[ditchcrawler]

 

All I intended to do was to warn that searching might not be as easy as it could be. When I am about to go out I am not going to spend my time trying to do a search when all that is needed is that readers look at their own insurance policies. I note that you do not seem to have used the search facility to find the topic (actually topics I think) that you are interested in.

Found this one via google http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=19886&page=2

[Tony Brooks]

Not that one but after 15 minutes of searching found this one http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=45306&hl=insurance+policy#entry839079 in which another contributor names the company. There was however at least pen previous to this but I can't find it.

[ditchcrawler]

Not that one but after 15 minutes of searching found this one http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=45306&hl=insurance+policy#entry839079 in which another contributor names the company. There was however at least pen previous to this but I can't find it.

How about this http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=34656&p=617028from Woollymishka

[Tony Brooks]

Might as well let it drop, its not that one either. The one I seem to remember came before the one I linked to and made a definite statement about the insurance clause.