Gas piping.

[Positively4thStreet]

Hi,

 

I have had a look through pretty much every post on here and I can't find anything related to this so I hope that it is okay to ask it here.

 

Anyway, I just want to know what peoples opinions/advice are, or even better than that, whether anyone knows whether or not what I want to achieve is doable.

 

So, I want to run my gas pipe from a starboard stern locker, through the bulkhead with a fitting or gland and then (this is where I want the advice/knowledge) run the piping up to the ceiling level behind the wall lining, then run it external to the ceiling along a cable tray (that will also have an electric lighting ring servicing the kitchen in it) and down a column (with a hinged inspection door) into a kitchen island. I am intending to use CSST piping to do the entire run without fittings along the length.

 

I hope that makes sense. If not feel free to ask any questions or me to try and clarify it a wee bit. As far as I can see the pipe would be checkable along its entire length and would be secure.

 

And before you ask why... we are going for the industrial look!

 

Thanks in advance

 

Gregg

Edited November 2, 2015 by Positively4thStreet

[springy]

Hi Gregg

 

Others will be along shortly with more knowledge than me but I suspect it may not be allowed - CSST is described as "flexible",

this single page outline bss for boats with gas refers to "rigid copper or stainless steel" http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination/boats-with-gas/

 

and 7.8.1 of the BSS says "LPG pipework must be made of either seamless copper tube, or stainless steel tube, or copper nickel alloy."

 

full bss pdf here http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/268789/ecp-private-boats-ed3_rev2_apr2015_public_final.pdf

 

springy

[Positively4thStreet]

Cheers Springy,

 

I had a look through the BSS pdfs, but I just thought I'd double check to see if there was a precedent for using CSST. What do you think of the same idea but using a prescribed material in place of the CSST? The idea is to get lpg to a hob on the kitchen island ("Using any means possible!" According to the missus).

 

Thanks again

 

Gregg

[David Mack]

run the piping up to the ceiling level behind the wall lining

The pipe must be visible so the BSS inspector can see there are no joints. So you will need a removable cover or section of lining here.

[MtB]

Why not use conventional copper tube like most other boats?

 

That way you'll avoid a long and possibly nail-biting discussion with the BSS bod every four years about whether or not your installation complies.

 

 

 

 

Edit to add, I've just noticed your edit:

 

"And before you ask why... we are going for the industrial look!"

 

Okay......!

 

Polished copper pipe with copper saddle clips looks pretty neat too...

Edited November 3, 2015 by Mike the Boilerman

[Graham.m]

I would suggest that where you run gas pipe with electrical cables the electrical cables should be double insulated to reduce the chance of insulation failure and arcing, thus penitration of the gas pipe and a release of gas.

 

Ed Spelling

Edited November 3, 2015 by Graham.m

[MtB]

I would suggest that where you run gas pipe with electrical cables the electrical cables should be double insulated to reduce the chance of insulation failure and arcing, thus penitration of the gas pipe and a release of gas.

 

Ed Spelling

 

 

Yes both the BSS and BS5482-2005 Part 3 have something to say on the subject of proximity of gas pipe to electrical cable, IIRC.

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

If you run seamless copper under the gunwhale dropping it down to under floor with a lift out floorboard for inspection and up to the island. But unless you are wide beam an island will be fixed to the side of the cabin because of space. The bulkhead sleeves are to prevent chaffing on the pipes.

[Graham.m]

Easiest way with BSS is to email them and ask if CSS is acceptable on a boat. Then keep the reply

 

 

 

 

Yes both the BSS and BS5482-2005 Part 3 have something to say on the subject of proximity of gas pipe to electrical cable, IIRC.

 

Not sure which reg, but know it is frowned upon to run along side electrical cable.

[nicknorman]

Not sure which reg, but know it is frowned upon to run along side electrical cable.

It is not frowned upon provided the relevant regs are complied with, along the lines of running them in separate conduit or having the cables sheathed. Since most people use mains flex cable which is already sheathed, this is not a problem. For 12v one can use plastic conduit of the rectangular section type, or even the corrugated flexible tubular type. Or I suppose you can get double insulated single core cable but for a bundle of cables, the overall conduit would take up less space.

[Alan de Enfield]

According to the authors of the booklet “Static Electricity in the Propane Industry" there are other ways friction can produce static that do not require direct involvement of personnel. Flow of propane is one.............

 

“Static Electricity in the Propane Industry” (From the Propane Education and Research Council) Authors: Ron J Zeluka-TB&S Consultants.

 

If you ensure that your gas pipes are 'bonded' then there will be no problem.

 

In a 'previous life' I was involved in the design and manufacture of plastic clips that were electrically conductive as fuel pipes on a well known make of car were becoming 'pitted' and leaking due to static 'jumping' from the pipes to the floor pan of the car.

 

 

 

Yes both the BSS and BS5482-2005 Part 3 have something to say on the subject of proximity of gas pipe to electrical cable, IIRC.

 

I believe the risk from static electricity (and therefore a spark) generated by the flow of gas in the pipes is far greater than the risk of a spark from a 12v cable.

[nicknorman]

According to the authors of the booklet “Static Electricity in the Propane Industry" there are other ways friction can produce static that do not require direct involvement of personnel. Flow of propane is one.............

 

 

 

“Static Electricity in the Propane Industry” (From the Propane Education and Research Council) Authors: Ron J Zeluka-TB&S Consultants.

 

If you ensure that your gas pipes are 'bonded' then there will be no problem.

 

In a 'previous life' I was involved in the design and manufacture of plastic clips that were electrically conductive as fuel pipes on a well known make of car were becoming 'pitted' and leaking due to static 'jumping' from the pipes to the floor pan of the car.

 

 

 

 

I believe the risk from static electricity (and therefore a spark) generated by the flow of gas in the pipes is far greater than the risk of a spark from a 12v cable.

The issue is not a spark. Gas is not flammable inside a pipe (no oxygen). The issue is an arc (OK, a very big spark if you like!) caused by a high current source shorting to the gas pipe (which is probably earthed) and thus burning a hole in the pipe which then releases gas into the air. A static spark may have lots of voltage, but it has way to little current to burn a hole in the pipe.

[Alan de Enfield]

........... A static spark may have lots of voltage, but it has way to little current to burn a hole in the pipe.

 

Static DOES perforate metallic car fuel pipes. A proven fact - hence the automotive industry paying 3x the price for 'conductive' clips rather than just standard Nylon.

[Positively4thStreet]

Oooph! Thats a lot of info. Cheers guys. We are a widebeam, so the island should be cool size-wise...

 

If you run seamless copper under the gunwhale dropping it down to under floor with a lift out floorboard for inspection and up to the island. But unless you are wide beam an island will be fixed to the side of the cabin because of space. The bulkhead sleeves are to prevent chaffing on the pipes.

 

This is interesting though... I was under the impression that you could not run a gas line under the floor/in the bilge due to the density of lpg being greater than air!? My original idea was to run some pipe (whichever is prescribed) along one of the floor stringers and have a lift-out inspection hatch along the length. That way I can avoid any electrical arcing issues and keep everything neat and tidy. So, is it allowed or is there precedent for running gas piping under the floor?

 

 

Why not use conventional copper tube like most other boats?

 

That way you'll avoid a long and possibly nail-biting discussion with the BSS bod every four years about whether or not your installation complies.

 

 

 

 

Edit to add, I've just noticed your edit:

 

"And before you ask why... we are going for the industrial look!"

 

Okay......!

 

Polished copper pipe with copper saddle clips looks pretty neat too...

 

 

Haha, the "industrial look" is all I could come up with to sell the idea of running gas pipe in electrical cable trays hanging from the ceiling to my missus... I'm guessing that's how interior design works.

[nicknorman]

Static DOES perforate metallic car fuel pipes. A proven fact - hence the automotive industry paying 3x the price for 'conductive' clips rather than just standard Nylon.

OK I am not disagreeing with that (since I don't have the knowledge), but suggest that an awful lot of static sparks would be required to perforate a gas pipe. However that would apply whether or not there were electric cables running alongside. Therefore I maintain that this is not the reason for controlling how cables are run alongside gas pipes.

 

Certainly when refuelling aeroplanes, especially with jet fuel, a lot of static can build up. I don't know, but I suspect there is not the same tendency for static to build up with low pressure propane gas flowing relatively slowly. Do you have evidence that it can occur in a domestic gas installation?

[Alan de Enfield]

OK I am not disagreeing with that (since I don't have the knowledge), but suggest that an awful lot of static sparks would be required to perforate a gas pipe. However that would apply whether or not there were electric cables running alongside. Therefore I maintain that this is not the reason for controlling how cables are run alongside gas pipes.

 

Certainly when refuelling aeroplanes, especially with jet fuel, a lot of static can build up. I don't know, but I suspect there is not the same tendency for static to build up with low pressure propane gas flowing relatively slowly. Do you have evidence that it can occur in a domestic gas installation?

 

" I maintain that this is not the reason for controlling how cables are run alongside gas pipes" - agreed - my assertion was that the risk of a spark being generated by single core cable insulation failing is remote - if there is a gas leak it will build up in the bilges until the fridge/Morco pilot light, or electrical switches, or static in the pipes causes a 'bang'.

 

" especially with jet fuel, a lot of static can build up" - Not only Jet fuel, we always 'earthed' out tug / fuelling hose ( at the gliding club) when refuelling.

 

"Do you have evidence that it can occur in a domestic gas installation?" - no - just the article mentioned.

[Graham.m]

Gas pipe on boat should be bonded to earth because of static.

 

The reason for not running cables alongside gas is of the is an insulation failure that allows an arc and the pipe is penetrated the arc is likely to continue and light the gas. Bang

[ditchcrawler]

According to the authors of the booklet “Static Electricity in the Propane Industry" there are other ways friction can produce static that do not require direct involvement of personnel. Flow of propane is one.............

 

“Static Electricity in the Propane Industry” (From the Propane Education and Research Council) Authors: Ron J Zeluka-TB&S Consultants.

 

If you ensure that your gas pipes are 'bonded' then there will be no problem.

 

In a 'previous life' I was involved in the design and manufacture of plastic clips that were electrically conductive as fuel pipes on a well known make of car were becoming 'pitted' and leaking due to static 'jumping' from the pipes to the floor pan of the car.

 

 

I believe the risk from static electricity (and therefore a spark) generated by the flow of gas in the pipes is far greater than the risk of a spark from a 12v cable.

Decided to remove it

Edited November 3, 2015 by ditchcrawler

[Tecky-Talk]

Gregg ...

 

Simple answer - CSST (TRACPIPE) isn't cleared for use in the marine environment (vibration etc) ...

 

If you want further info, please PM me

 

TT

[MtB]

Gregg ...

 

Simple answer - CSST (TRACPIPE) isn't cleared for use in the marine environment (vibration etc) ...

 

If you want further info, please PM me

 

TT

 

 

Could you post your further info on here please, so everyone can read it?

 

Thanks.

[RubyTuesday]

Gregg ...

 

Simple answer - CSST (TRACPIPE) isn't cleared for use in the marine environment (vibration etc) ...

 

If you want further info, please PM me

 

TT

I have emailed TracPipe and as far as they are concerned:

 

"Dear Mr Roberts

 

Thank you for your email with regards to using TracPipe.

 

TracPipe can be used in accordance with PD 54823 Guidance for the design, commissioning and maintenance of LPG systems in small craft (which has now replaced BS 5482-3)."

[Alan Taylor]

Gas pipe on boat should be bonded to earth because of static.

 

The reason for not running cables alongside gas is of the is an insulation failure that allows an arc and the pipe is penetrated the arc is likely to continue and light the gas. Bang

 

Leaks in gas pipes don't go bang, they ignite and generally burn with a flame.

[ditchcrawler]

 

Leaks in gas pipes don't go bang, they ignite and generally burn with a flame.

That rather depends how far the source of ignition is away from the leak