Happy Trafalgar Day everyone!

[nipper]

In one of the most decisive naval battles in History, The British fleet under Lord Nelson defeated the combined French and Spanish fleet at the battle of Trafalgar, off the coast of Spain!

 

Was it worth it?

 

Discuss?

 

Nipper

[Bide Your Time]

Yes it was!

 

I'll raise a glass 'to the immortal memory' later.

[Sea Dog]

Over 200 years ago and you want to discuss whether it was worth it now? On a Canal Forum? I think we should let sleeping sea dogs lie.

[KenK]

It is also Back to the Future day, this is the day that Marty McFly and Doc Brown travelled to in the second Back to the Future movie.

 

Ken

[James T Berk]

I was there you know drove a Bedford

[tidal]

Yes it was worth it.
It prevented further major challenges at sea, reduced all chance of invasion and so damaged French naval power that by the time they were nearly ready for round two Napoleon's empire was in ruins.

 

I could wax lyrical about the subsequent changes in battle tactics generally but why bother

Edited October 21, 2015 by tidal

[Graham Davis]

It is also the anniversary of the Abefan Disaster in 1966.

Rest in Peace!

[gaggle]

bbc news has the dam opened to supply Liverpool before mention of Aberfan if it get a mention at all

[Machpoint005]

Yes it was worth it.

It prevented further major challenges at sea, reduced all chance of invasion and so damaged French naval power that by the time they were nearly ready for round two Napoleon's empire was in ruins.

 

I could wax lyrical about the subsequent changes in battle tactics generally but why bother

 

Of course, had Napoleon been able to invade, we might have been a British republic long since. That might not have turned out to be such a bad thing.

 

But history is peppered with "ifs" so I'll be raising a glass this evening to the memory of our brave tars, nonetheless.

[patty-ann]

i went to a Trafalgar Day dinner once in my other life...they served a chocolate replica ship with Maltesers as canon balls..so yeah definitely worth it.

[Nightwatch]

When I was serving and since I have always recognised Trafalgar day. In my view a day to recognise. I'm sure the Air Force and the Army have similar days.

 

I remember Aberfan as if it was yesterday. Absolutely tragic.

[Peter X]

210 years, and a very necessary battle in my view, self-defence against a very real threat of invasion by a dictator, so justifiable even by today's standards.

 

There's a proper anniversary coming up on Sunday 25th, 600 years since Agincourt. It probably didn't get mentioned much at the 500th anniversary as we were then allies of France in WW1. I'm not sure how right Henry V's campaign was by the standards of the time, but I suppose the English had an arguable basis for the Hundred Years' War in that the French were attempting to take land in Normandy which had belonged to William the Conqueror, and Aquitaine which the Plantagenets had inherited by the marriage of Henry II to Eleanor. Anyway I don't feel we should be asking the French for it back.

[Athy]

 

I remember Aberfan as if it was yesterday. Absolutely tragic.

Ditto - I was in the 6th form at school at the time. I think that was the day when the word "slurry" entered English vocabulary. I wish to God that it hadn't needed to.

 

As Trafalgar Day, I think I first read about it in the paper, in Nelson's column.

[churchward]

It is also Back to the Future day, this is the day that Marty McFly and Doc Brown travelled to in the second Back to the Future movie.

 

Ken

I'll get my hover board out!

When I was serving and since I have always recognised Trafalgar day. In my view a day to recognise. I'm sure the Air Force and the Army have similar days.

 

I remember Aberfan as if it was yesterday. Absolutely tragic.

So do I.

 

I was nearly 8 but it was one of those days when even as a small child I knew the scale of the disaster and how upset those around you were. We said prayers for them all the next day at assembly.

[b0atman]

Aberfan still so fresh in the memory .

[churchward]

Aberfan still so fresh in the memory .

Quite so.

 

Another Welsh anniversary of 50 years ago still painful in the minds of many still living although not so for any loss of life more way of living is Tryweryn. This for those unfamiliar with it was the building of a dam to fill the Tryweryn river valley (forming Llyn Celyn) near Bala in North Wales for drinking water for Liverpool. The process led to the drowning of the village and surrounding farms of Capel Celyn one of the last all Welsh Speaking villages.

 

An example of those embittered by the experience of people with power taking what they wish (that which was not for sale) via a private members bill (no welsh MP voted for it) regardless of the wishes of those directly effected. The Capel Celyn locals marched in Liverpool as a protest and had abuse and objects thrown at them and their representatives in the Liverpool council chambers shouted down. An example of social injustice even in modern times. Still, many say that the experience has formed opinions in modern Wales and led to many political changes for the good in Wales and highlighted issues of Welsh language and culture.

 

Cofiwch Dryweryn!

Edited October 21, 2015 by churchward

[cuthound]

I remember Aberfan as if it was yesterday. Absolutely tragic.

I did a mate a favour that day and did his paper round. Put me off getting around of my own.

 

I was 12 at the time.

[Machpoint005]

Quite so.

 

Another Welsh anniversary of 50 years ago still painful in the minds of many still living although not so for any loss of life more way of living is Tryweryn. This for those unfamiliar with it was the building of a dam to fill the Tryweryn river valley (forming Llyn Celyn) near Bala in North Wales for drinking water for Liverpool. The process led to the drowning of the village and surrounding farms of Capel Celyn one of the last all Welsh Speaking villages.

 

An example of those embittered by the experience of people with power taking what they wish (that which was not for sale) via a private members bill (no welsh MP voted for it) regardless of the wishes of those directly effected. The Capel Celyn locals marched in Liverpool as a protest and had abuse and objects thrown at them and their representatives in the Liverpool council chambers shouted down. An example of social injustice even in modern times. Still, many say that the experience has formed opinions in modern Wales and led to many political changes for the good in Wales and highlighted issues of Welsh language and culture.

 

Cofiwch Dryweryn!

 

I'm not usually one to side with the scousers, but wasn't a significant proportion of the population growth in Liverpool down to rural Welsh people moving in for work in the docks and factories?

Similar things happened in the Lake District, Yorkshire and Derbyshire in the 20th century, but the people didn't have an ethnic moan about it.

[churchward]

 

I'm not usually one to side with the scousers, but wasn't a significant proportion of the population growth in Liverpool down to rural Welsh people moving in for work in the docks and factories?

Similar things happened in the Lake District, Yorkshire and Derbyshire in the 20th century, but the people didn't have an ethnic moan about it.

A rather insensitive post.

 

Yes, Welsh people have moved to Liverpool looking for work no doubt Liverpudlians have also moved to Wales as well don't you think?

 

There have been other drowned villages as well in Wales and England but Trywelyn was in the mid 1960s a time that should have been more enlightened for the concerns of social justice. It wasn't as if it was there or no where else. They used a private members bill to avoid having to go through local planning processes. How should people feel if not one Welsh MP voted for it but the act was still imposed? They wanted it and used a more powerful position to take it. It would have not made any difference if it was at the point of a gun.

 

It is also debatable that the water was actually needed and is today still a backup source for the main reservoir for Liverpool at Vernwy.

 

Lastly if it was all on the level why would Liverpool council feel the need to offer an official apology in 2005 to the people of Capel Celyn for the actions the Liverpool council took?

 

The apology read thus

 

“The council acknowledges its debt to the many thousands of Welsh people who have made their homes in the city. They have in so many ways enriched the life of the city.

 

“We realise the hurt of 40 years ago when the Tryweryn valley was transformed into a reservoir to help meet the water needs of Liverpool. It would be like us agreeing to the flooding of the Dingle area of Liverpool to provide water for Birmingham"

 

“For any insensitivity by our predecessor council at the time, we apologise and hope that the historic and sound relationship between Liverpool and Wales can be completely restored."

 

Some good has come of the events as I said. A better view of what it means to be Welsh and protection for the Welsh language as people awakened to what was being lost.

Edited October 21, 2015 by churchward

[churchward]

double post

Edited October 21, 2015 by churchward

[JamesWoolcock]

In one of the most decisive naval battles in History, The British fleet under Lord Nelson defeated the combined French and Spanish fleet at the battle of Trafalgar, off the coast of Spain!

 

Was it worth it?

 

Discuss?

 

Nipper

On 21st October 2005, on the 200th anniversary of the Battle of Trafalgar, Jacques Chirac, the President of French Republic said" It was an important European naval battle in which the English commander was killed."

Umm

He failed to admit to any of the consequences,

 

James

[patty-ann]

On 21st October 2005, on the 200th anniversary of the Battle of Trafalgar, Jacques Chirac, the President of French Republic said" It was an important European naval battle in which the English commander was killed."

Umm

He failed to admit to any of the consequences,

 

James

Well I suppose if he had added

 

"and they beat the s... out of us" would have taken the shine off the moment for him

[churchward]

On 21st October 2005, on the 200th anniversary of the Battle of Trafalgar, Jacques Chirac, the President of French Republic said" It was an important European naval battle in which the English commander was killed."

Umm

He failed to admit to any of the consequences,

 

James

It is quite enlightening when you read different countries historical texts of the same event. It can be rather telling about the countries attitudes.

Edited October 22, 2015 by churchward

[Machpoint005]

A rather insensitive post.

 

...

 

Some good has come of the events as I said. A better view of what it means to be Welsh and protection for the Welsh language as people awakened to what was being lost.

 

Insensitive: perhaps. Factual: I think so.

 

It is all too easy to judge mid-20th century events with 21st century hindsight. The language of village dwellers in northern England is no less important just because it happens to be broadly the same as that in London or Liverpool.

 

I can be pro-northern England without being anti-Welsh.

On 21st October 2005, on the 200th anniversary of the Battle of Trafalgar, Jacques Chirac, the President of French Republic said" It was an important European naval battle in which the English commander was killed."

Umm

He failed to admit to any of the consequences,

 

James

 

It didn't prevent Waterloo (or its necessity).

[churchward]

 

Insensitive: perhaps. Factual: I think so.

 

It is all too easy to judge mid-20th century events with 21st century hindsight. The language of village dwellers in northern England is no less important just because it happens to be broadly the same as that in London or Liverpool.

 

I can be pro-northern England without being anti-Welsh.

 

It didn't prevent Waterloo (or its necessity).

Hardly factual at all you are expressing an opinion not fact. Interesting that you edited out the rest of my post and apologies from Liverpool council.

 

It is not just the morals of 50 years ago versus that of today. The events are within living memory many of the people, particularly the children of the time are still alive. There were protests from the people at the time (they must have thought it wrong) and Welsh MPs voted against it but yet the act and dam building went ahead.

 

The dam was rather more to do with money than needing water. Liverpool did (may still do) sell water from Vrnwy to many other authorities and although the original Vrnwy agreement obliged Liverpool to sell some water onto others Trywelyn maximised the amount for sale. Now that is a fact.

 

The events are a significant even seminal event in modern Welsh history and for many symbolise the growth in the interest in Welsh culture and the sense of Wales needing to govern Welsh affairs.