Chinese steel for narrowboats

[Murflynn]

Completely disagree. I've spent 12 years working with Chinese suppliers and the point with any supplier regardless of location is to work with them. We put a lot of effort into agreeing very clear specifications, agreeing processes and inspection processes and rates. My complaints rate per million units sold is much lower than many competitors. My experience has been fantastic to see my suppliers absorb information and knowledge and apply best practice's. In the locations of my suppliers they have labour laws including minimum wages and are definitely not sweat shops. I have 2 staff based in Shanghai who constantly work with our suppliers and they are superb- they work hard and are constantly learning and want to learn. It's impossible to generalise on an origin- its down to who cares enough to put the effort in and work as a partnership. Some goods from China can be excellent- some aren't, same as anywhere

 

Oh and we don't do quality control, we do quality assurance- we ensure compliance of ingredients and processes right from the start ensuring EU compliance and our monthly right first time figures are rarely less than 100% versus spec

Agree.

 

I worked as a seconded 'embedded expert' within China Petroleum and Engineering Corporation for 2 years recently in Abu Dhabi on a $3billion project.

 

Abu Dhabi has a high quality oil industry, originally set up by the likes of Shell and BP, and will not accept anything that is not constructed to the very best industry standards. Most of the steel linepipe (about $1billion worth) was shipped in from China, and 80% of the site work was undertaken by Chinese contractors. We had no particular problems with the pipe, certainly much less than I have experienced in the UK in the 70's.

 

The technical staff were generally young, well educated and fluent in English. They were ravenously hungry for good quality experience and advice, and they learned quickly. I have worked with dozens of nationalities and have never encountered a national group who were as committed to listening, learning and improving.

 

You can be sure of one thing - Chinese quality will continue to improve, just as Japanese quality did in the 80's and 90's.

[Woodstock]

So you spend more money to supply good quality products, which you charge more for -- good for you. Other people don't bother and sell stuff cheaper -- good for them, it's just a different business model, low quality/price as opposed to high qaulity/price.

 

Joe Public has to choose between cheaper and more expensive products, and very often goes for the cheap option -- and then whinges afterwards when it fails. Boo hoo, what did you expect for that price?

 

But paying more doesn't guarantee better quality (even if it does in your case) because other vendors push out low-quality crap *and* charge more for it by ripping off the buyer -- they're not out to provide high-quality products and good service to satisfied customers, just make a fast buck.

 

Doing "the right thing" nowadays only pays off in market areas where a good reputation and satisfied customers (who recommend you) actually pays off. But given the current reliance of most people on unverified reviews and feedback on websites -- a lot of it just plain made up -- it's getting harder to make such a business work, pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap is winning out.

We don't charge more than others supplying comparable products- we take a lower margin than many others. Some of the UK retailers have margins of up to 75% - ours is lower Edited October 21, 2015 by Woodstock

[Emerald Fox]

Hahaha! What?! Steel made in China in 2016 is rust at the bottom of the Grand Union in 2018.

But that's right - all the Redcar blokes are now on the dole, so where else to get steel?

Might as well have a few Chinese-built nuclear power stations whilst we're at it... oh, I see that's already been arranged.

Backhanders all round.

[Phil Ambrose]

I'm just not getting the problem with where steel comes from, there are hundreds of different grades of steel, all with different qualities for different applications. Each type is made to a formula which can be tested.

The end user stipulates what grade is required for any particular use be it something like Leadalloy, Hobbing steel etc etc and would know within minutes if the wrong material was supplied.

L

Phil

Edited October 21, 2015 by Phil Ambrose

[Murflynn]

Hahaha! What?! Steel made in China in 2016 is rust at the bottom of the Grand Union in 2018.

But that's right - all the Redcar blokes are now on the dole, so where else to get steel?

Might as well have a few Chinese-built nuclear power stations whilst we're at it... oh, I see that's already been arranged.

Backhanders all round.

do you have some specialist knowledge about steel, or are you just jumping on a bandwagon?

[Paul C]

Selling something with clearly defined specifications, below that spec, is a pretty risky strategy given the fact its a commodity product and its easy to earn a poor reputation etc.

[dor]

The technical staff were generally young, well educated and fluent in English. They were ravenously hungry for good quality experience and advice, and they learned quickly. I have worked with dozens of nationalities and have never encountered a national group who were as committed to listening, learning and improving.

 

In the '50s my father was involved in setting up a transistor manufacturing plant in Japan. In those days you glued bits of wire onto a semiconductor and checked what its properties were. It was then labelled 'OC81', 'OC78' etc. depending on which spec it fitted with. Complete failure rate was about 50%. THe Japanese plant was set up with European equipment, used the same raw materiels sourced from the same place as the European plants, and the operators were trained by European staff. To start with the failure rate was over 70%. Within about a year it was down to about 30%. Another year and they asked what transistor you wanted and made them all to that one's spec with few falling outside the accepted spec. This was the start of the Japanese electronics industry and we all know where that led. This is what is happening now in China and is echoed in the Murflynn's quote above.

[Dinz]

Wonder where Mercedes get the metal from.

According to this forum my Vito must have been made out of reject Chinese bacofoil!

[John V]

Like most things, there is good and bad, as regards steel as Phil said, steel is made to a recipe for a particular purpose. If someone uses the wrong grade (please note "grade" not quality) then the results will almost always be worse than if the correct grade is used.

 

On British/Japanese and the demise of the British motorcycle industry, It was mostly self inflicted. Terrible, arrogant management, Lousy labour relations and Bolshy unions. The quality control coming out of one motorcycle factory was abysmal. (I say "one" as I have only personal experience of one company)

Arrogant, as they had (Nortons) a designer called IIRC Fred Marsh who tried to get them to produce a V8 500cc, He was told "our customers don't want bikes with more than one or two cylinders" (After retirement he went on to build one of these engines in his garden shed, I saw it demonstrated at the 76 IOM TT, incredible bit of kit.....and what a terrible missed opportunity)

 

In the 70's I had a part time job doing PDI's (pre delivery inspections) on new motorcycles. Specifically Hondas and Nortons. The Hondas arrived in a packing crate and were partly dis assembled for transport. I was paid to un pack and assemble, Check for damage or faults/missing items add oil and fuel and check running. for this I was paid £2.50 for a small Honda or £3.50 for a large Honda. I also used to have to do the PDI's on Nortons. They arrived completely assembled and supposedly ready for the road.......I used to be paid £5.00 to do one of them and I hated it.....You had to check absolutely every nut and bolt and you used to find some appalling errors. Bits missing, wrong parts fitted, loose nuts and bolts, misaligned wheels, inoperative brakes.

 

Before I started the job I was considering buying a Norton Commando Interstate (better known as a Come and go In a state) at the time they were new £875 instead I bought a one year old second hand Laverda 750 GT for £ 1,050.........definitely a wise choice.

 

 

 

edit for fat fingers

Edited October 22, 2015 by John V

[nb Innisfree]

British manufacturers used to decide what the customer wanted whereas the Japanese would first of all ask them, obvious really.

[MtB]

British manufacturers used to decide what the customer wanted whereas the Japanese would first of all ask them, obvious really.

 

 

Asking the punters what they want can be a terrible mistake. Google "Ford Edsel"...

 

Or look here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsel

[nb Innisfree]

 

 

Asking the punters what they want can be a terrible mistake. Google "Ford Edsel"...

 

Or look here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsel

It works for the Japs, looks as if Ford didn't do it properly, I would think they learnt from that as they seem better at it now.

[cuthound]

Back in the late 1980's when "Total Quality Management" became popular in this country, I attended a course on it.

 

Apparently the Americans invented it before WW2 and gave it to the Japanese when helping rebuild Japan after the war.

 

The difference is the Japanese took it to heart and eventually conquered the world with consistently well made products, whereas the Americans only paid lip service to it.

 

As to the UK, we ignored it because it wasn't invented here.

[Cheshire cat]

Well do you know where to buy one made in the UK this was a Kidde which I think is a respected supplier, cant call them a manufacturer now.

 

No I don't know of a British manufacturer. My comment was heart felt rather than sarcasm. I realise it could read either way but not what I meant.

[Phil Ambrose]

I have a suspicion that the demise of British engineering had a lot to do with youngsters being discouraged from getting their hands dirty. So called blue collar jobs were somehow thought to be inferior, the youth were all encouraged to get into I.T but to be a good engineer takes brains as well as manual dexterity the mature of the job entails a lot of solving mathematical problems, in fact when I started there were no calculators and I had to be able to quickly multiply 6 digits ny 6 digits to get a 12 digit answer and be a le to check that the answer was correct. We are now paying the price for churning out a nation of programmers a distinct shortage of all trades, builders, sparks, chippies plumbers as well as engineers.

What the answer is I do not know.

Phil

[nb Innisfree]

I have a suspicion that the demise of British engineering had a lot to do with youngsters being discouraged from getting their hands dirty. So called blue collar jobs were somehow thought to be inferior, the youth were all encouraged to get into I.T but to be a good engineer takes brains as well as manual dexterity the mature of the job entails a lot of solving mathematical problems, in fact when I started there were no calculators and I had to be able to quickly multiply 6 digits ny 6 digits to get a 12 digit answer and be a le to check that the answer was correct. We are now paying the price for churning out a nation of programmers a distinct shortage of all trades, builders, sparks, chippies plumbers as well as engineers.

What the answer is I do not know.

Phil

I think think you've hit the nail on the head, the British class system has a lot to answer for, division between working class production and middle class management has been a sticking point for decades, just at the point where it causes the most damage.

[mark99]

one year old second hand Laverda 750 GT for £ 1,050.........definitely a wise choice.

 

 

 

No..........please don't mention the word Laverda!

 

I lusted after their Jota!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTq5GIsfjwI

[Murflynn]

We are now paying the price for churning out a nation of programmers a distinct shortage of all trades, builders, sparks, chippies plumbers as well as engineers.

What the answer is I do not know.

Phil

Perhaps we should bring back secondary modern schools and technical colleges that managed to put a large proportion of their intakes into proper trades.

 

It was a daft idea that, just because some children did not have the advantage of ambitious and/or wealthy parents, all children should go to a comprehensive school at the age of 11, so they all had the opportunity to go to uni. What was wrong with gaining practical skills, apart from a perceived 'snob factor'?

 

As a result there are some second rate unis, too many uni courses which will not realistically lead to relevant job opportunities, and a lot of kids who can't keep up with the classes at comprehensive and become disillusioned and end up as semi-literate and semi-numerate, and are not motivated to get a technical training.

 

When I started as a graduate site engineer I had the greatest respect for the technicians who had been through secondary modern, technical college and a college of technology, and knew far more about the business at the age of 22 than I did. Those guys had a route of entry into the 'learned institutions' so they could become chartered engineers if they wanted to.

[bizzard]

Most youngsters these days don't want to do practical work with their hands anymore, they don't like getting them dirty, all they want to do is computer stuff. I have three nephews who are totally impractical, they can't even bang a nail in, they all do IT computing for jobs and come home and carry on,''at it again'' playing computer games and of course shoving drivel on Facebook. They've got laptops, desktops, Eyepods, notepads, tablets, the list are endless. They have hands like babies, but their index fingers are noticeably getting bigger and stronger. Evolutionary tendencies predict that eventually folk will end up with one big square eye centrally place, two enormous and powerful index fingers only, left on the hands, legs will just dwindle away into dangling bits of useless gristle and permanent Arseritis will set in with 24/7 sitting. What a state to be in.

Ducks didn't have webbed feet originally and Moor hens, 'poor little beggars that have to struggle along' will also eventually grow them which should make them much happier.

Edited October 23, 2015 by bizzard

[Murflynn]

Evolutionary tendencies predict that eventually folk will end up with one big square eye centrally place, two enormous and powerful index fingers only, left on the hands, legs will just dwindle away into dangling bits of useless gristle and permanent Arseritis will set in with 24/7 sitting.

a bit like your alter ego avatar then

[bizzard]

a bit like your alter ego avatar then

Yes, I know and it was only a dream, a dream about becoming a navigation light inspector.

[Emerald Fox]

so there may be chinks of light in the pervading gloom.

 

Ho, ho! Does that mean Chinese steel is better than what we have been Mingling round with?

TATA took over British steel to learn how to make a decent quality product.

 

But all they did is get rid of the British workforce.

[Emerald Fox]

 

 

The rails for HS3 could become quite a challenge.

 

China nicked the Japanese bullet train idea - and their first one crashed.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzhou_train_collision

 

Perhaps the British government could find some rails off of Ebay?

 

(yes, I said 'off of' deliberately)

[Emerald Fox]

 

I would not have German, out of respect for my Great Grandfather who was killed in WW1.

 

We should all make an effort to buy British whenever possible.

Hmmm... I'm guessing you avoid Lidl & Aldi like the Plague, then?

Well, the sun sets on the British Empire - now a subsidiary of China PLC (Peoples Lepubric of China)

Germany seems to have become a sub-state of the Middle East. As does the whole of Scandinavia.

The Russians are building nuclear power stations willy-nilly, and so are the Chinese.

We are going to have an interesting future. Or.... not!

 

In that case what is left made in Britain to buy ?

Bacon and clogs from Mytholmroyd, and barge poles from Midland Chandlers.

Even wooden spoons in kitchen shops in Britain are Made in Poland.

Oh, and Swizzels Matlow sweets Made in New Mills - for those who like appointments at the dentists for fillings that have been sucked out.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Emerald Fox

[peterboat]

Perhaps we should bring back secondary modern schools and technical colleges that managed to put a large proportion of their intakes into proper trades.

 

It was a daft idea that, just because some children did not have the advantage of ambitious and/or wealthy parents, all children should go to a comprehensive school at the age of 11, so they all had the opportunity to go to uni. What was wrong with gaining practical skills, apart from a perceived 'snob factor'?

 

As a result there are some second rate unis, too many uni courses which will not realistically lead to relevant job opportunities, and a lot of kids who can't keep up with the classes at comprehensive and become disillusioned and end up as semi-literate and semi-numerate, and are not motivated to get a technical training.

 

When I started as a graduate site engineer I had the greatest respect for the technicians who had been through secondary modern, technical college and a college of technology, and knew far more about the business at the age of 22 than I did. Those guys had a route of entry into the 'learned institutions' so they could become chartered engineers if they wanted to.

greenie sir, its blairs fault he wanted to educate everyone to uni standard, whereas we know by 14 some kids are going to be brickies/plumbers etc and they will earn a good living doing just that. so why not start trade training for them at that age, keep english and maths on but the rest of the time spent learning jobs for the countries future and for engineers etc on to polytechnic to finish of. a bonus would be we could shut three quarters of the unis down and educate far more to careers that we need rant over