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Near miss .... but who had the right of way?


Joelsanders

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There are very few reported collision accidents on the Thames (if anything 'nasty' happens then it's usually reported in the local press), but that's no excuse for not knowing about Colregs or (perhaps) local bye-laws.

 

After all we all know the Highway code - don't we?? - when driving a vehicle, so why not Colregs etc when on a river or canal

(fat chance of either, methinks)

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Google came up with a previous thread and a chart of signals, looks useful. http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=66665

 

Edit to say perusal of thread says it's a chart with Thames signals as well as colregs. I think I'll print and laminate it anyway.

Edited by Jim Riley
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Reading this thread makes one wonder, should all hire boat companies place a list of relevant sound signals next to all helm positions?

To be honest, the companies would be better teaching hirers how to use locks and the etiquette that goes with it, ie if the lock is empty, don't close and refill unless they are sure there is nobody coming up!

I met four groups of hirers today at the Bath locks who closed gates on me and in not sharing water managed to empty the pounds between them all!

All stated that they hadn't had any training at all from the local hire companies!

 

Anyway, back on topic!

Perhaps a card with sound signals on it in the cockpit, but it's no use at all if nobody else knows the signals. judge.gif

 

Nipper

Edited by nipper
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Given that I was single handed and edging out slowly, are there any other strategies I could have deployed to maximise safety for myself and others ?

Yes. What part of "one long blast on your horn" mentioned several times previously in this thread didn't you understand?

 

If you think your horn isn't loud enough to be heard then sort it out, or buy a hand held horn.

 

Sorry if I'm being a bit blunt here but you don't really seem to be getting it. If you can't see the channel you're entering then sound your horn.

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I understood the point clearly the first time it was made. I can, however, see that more than one person has quoted my original comment and referenced the single long blast. In your world, is the originator of a post responsible for everyone else's posts and the direction that the thread takes? I've been boating for most of the day and haven't been able to check or contribute again until now.

 

Soooo .. you are sorry for being blunt? And I am not getting what exactly? The only post I'm not getting in this thread is yours. Everyone else has made sense, been informative & contributed to what's been an interesting read.... even if there was some repetition.

 

A peculiar little tantrum. If I am also being a bit blunt, I'm not sorry. It's intentional.

 

 

Yes. What part of "one long blast on your horn" mentioned several times previously in this thread didn't you understand?

If you think your horn isn't loud enough to be heard then sort it out, or buy a hand held horn.

Sorry if I'm being a bit blunt here but you don't really seem to be getting it. If you can't see the channel you're entering then sound your horn.

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I understood the point clearly the first time it was made. I can, however, see that more than one person has quoted my original comment and referenced the single long blast. In your world, is the originator of a post responsible for everyone else's posts and the direction that the thread takes? I've been boating for most of the day and haven't been able to check or contribute again until now.

 

Soooo .. you are sorry for being blunt? And I am not getting what exactly? The only post I'm not getting in this thread is yours. Everyone else has made sense, been informative & contributed to what's been an interesting read.... even if there was some repetition.

 

A peculiar little tantrum. If I am also being a bit blunt, I'm not sorry. It's intentional.

 

 

you seem to be very concerned about any litigation regarding a incident when boating[ie, when entering a river or waterway singlehanded], whilst not making light of possible incidents which are sometime's going to happen, why not just use every caution and use common sense and above all remember boating is supposed to be a leisure occupation and with just a little bit of give and take boating is the best, please don't look to the right's and wrong's or who is to blame, the speeding boater[you can not verify] did not hit or obstruct you, so put it down to experience and be ready next time, don't let it spoil your day there are a lot more important issues out there smilebiggrin.png

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Actually I've had a look around and if anyone can find me a regulation that defines how loud a sound signalling device should be I'd be most grateful.

From the 'Colregs':

Part D - Sound and Light Signals 33 Equipment states "Vessels of 12 metres (39.4 ft) or more in length should carry a whistle and a bell and vessels 100 metres.........."

 

ANNEX III Technical details of sound signal appliances

1. Whistle ( a ) Frequencies and range of audibility The fundamental frequency of the signal shall lie within the range 70-700 Hz

( c ) A whistle fitted in a vessel shall provide, in the direction of maximum intensity of the whistle and at a distance of 1 metre from it, a sound pressure level in at least one 1/3-octave band..........

this is followed by a table which shows the following:

Length of vessel in metres

20 but less than 75 "1/3rd-octave band level at 1 metre......" 130 "Audibility range in nautical miles" 1

Less than 20 "1/3rd-octave band level at 1 metre......" 120 "Audibility range in nautical miles" 0.5

 

The annex then further states after this table "The range of audibility in the table above is for information and is approximately the range at which a whistle may be heard on its forward axis with 90 percent probability in conditions of of still air on board a vessel having average background noise level at the listening posts (taken to be 68dB......."

 

The next paragraph states "In practice the range at which a whistle may be heard is extremely variable and depends critically on weather conditions; the values given can be regarded as typical but under conditions of strong wind or high ambient noise level at the listening post the range may be much reduced"

 

As noted in other threads Part A General ( b ) "Nothing in these rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads, harbours, rivers, lakes, or inland waterways connected with the high seas ........ such special rules shall conform as closely as possible to these rules".

 

So unless C&RT or other appropriate authorties providing bylaws, regulations etc for inland waterways etc have any "special rules" for sound appliances the above would apply.

.

Edited by Woodsy
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In a way, it was a good job he was “speeding.”

Had he been going slower and still not paying attention, he may have got there a

few seconds later and “T” boned you.

 

Or you even going a tad faster, arrived a couple of seconds earlier and you would have got him.

Then you could have been in trouble.

 

Rob….

Edited by ROBDEN
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Thanks Woodsy
I knew the specs were in Colregs and like you I believe that they should apply across all waterways but I know that many disagree.
I was looking in the various bylaws

 

Most narrowboats would probably require a 130Db horn or whistle if they did and I doubt that many do have that level. **

Many salty water leisure craft don't either.

 

**

Yes I know some of you do. I've prepared to pull right out of the channel on a couple of semi-commercial waterways after hearing what sounded like the Queen Mary approaching only to see that it was emanating from a smallish narrowboat clapping.gif

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I'm impressed . It was Shepperton marina. What did I write to give you that indication? Do you have special powers ?

 

 

Only been there a few times but what I can remember that river is fairly wide (more than 200m?) there and IMHO the other boater should have given the marina enterance wide berth.

Edited by Robbo
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I once gave a blast on my Westinghouse train horn (loud thing attached by hose to An empty fire extinguisher pumped up to 100psi with a car tyre pump :rolleyes: ) to advise someone that I was approaching a lock which they were closing in front of me. They closed the lock and when they saw me they said "I thought that was a train"

 

So a very loud horn can have disadvantages :huh: I often thought one of those rotating sirens might be the best thing - like the air raid things.

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So a very loud horn can have disadvantages :huh: I often thought one of those rotating sirens might be the best thing - like the air raid things.

Dear forum, I've just signalled my intentions on my new air raid siren. As well as the intended long blast, there was a horrid screeching noise from beneath my feet which I think may have been my alternator and now there's a strong smell of battery acid. Does anyone have any rubber gloves?

 

On a more positive note, the Luftwaffe, sorry Lufthansa, aircraft approaching from the south turned away and headed back over the channel.

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As per previous comments it's best to send someone (if available) to the bow.

 

It didn't work at Great Haywood junction yesterday.

 

We were cruising north up the Trent & Mersey, and were approaching the unusually quiet junction. We were at tickover and when a couple of boat lengths from the junction, a bow appeared under the bridge.

 

The boat was flying, a chap at the bow spotted us, turned to give his wife a thumbs up. I had to slam our boat in reverse, we stopped and watched them try to turn right across our bow. They just managed to not run aground opposite, but they certainly weren't in full control.

 

No point sending someone to the bow, if you're going to fast to stop or they ignore an approaching boat.

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I always go boating without any crew anyway so what I would do in that sort of situation would be put the front of the boat out a little bit, stop the boat then go to the front and check then go back to the helm and go forward if safe to do so.

 

I like being able to move about on the boat but its personal and leaving the helm even for 30 seconds could be deemed unsafe as could walking through the cabin or round the side decks while not tied up.

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Dear forum, I've just signalled my intentions on my new air raid siren. As well as the intended long blast, there was a horrid screeching noise from beneath my feet which I think may have been my alternator and now there's a strong smell of battery acid. Does anyone have any rubber gloves?

On a more positive note, the Luftwaffe, sorry Lufthansa, aircraft approaching from the south turned away and headed back over the channel.

How bout one of these until you sort your alternator out

 

http://www.klaxonsignals.com/industrial/products/product/hand-operated-sirens-heavy-duty-hand-operated-siren/

 

Might be a bit difficult to distinguish between your 'short' and 'long' blasts though:)

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Only been there a few times but what I can remember that river is fairly wide (more than 200m?) there and IMHO the other boater should have given the marina enterance wide berth.

I would agree with your suggestion that the other boater should have given the marina entrance a wide berth although your guess of the Thames width at that point is a bit out (unless you really meant 200 FEET),Google gives the width between Shepperton Marina entrance and Walton Marina (directly opposite) as about 87 metres or nearly 5 times the length of the OP's boat. I think in the same situation I would have come out of the marina entrance as slowly as I could make the boat go (pretty much drifting) until I had a clear view out onto the river. If you get carried a bit by the current then so be it, with 280 feet of river width there is plenty of room to turn around afterwards. If hit by the oncoming cruiser my position would be that I was stationary and given that he had 220 feet of river to use without hitting me the fault was (hypothetically) entirely his. and in the competition between my 18 tons of steel and his 6 tons of yoghurt pot (if it was a decent sized cruiser) he would probably come off worst.

 

As an afterthought, all of these ideas of having louder horns or additional crew is all very well but ultimately the helm holds the final responsibility. Just because the person you have put at the bow says it is clear for you to go doesn't transfer the responsibility to them. If you were able to say what actions you had taken to avoid a collision (steering away from the oncoming boat, putting the engine in hard astern) I think an insurer (and this is after all what we are talking about isn't it?) would agree that a boat running into a stationary narrow boat either wasn't taking sufficient care in navigation or was unable to stop in the distance he could see to be clear.

Edited by Wanderer Vagabond
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Thanks Woodsy

I knew the specs were in Colregs and like you I believe that they should apply across all waterways but I know that many disagree.

I was looking in the various bylaws

 

Most narrowboats would probably require a 130Db horn or whistle if they did and I doubt that many do have that level. **

Many salty water leisure craft don't either.

 

**

Yes I know some of you do. I've prepared to pull right out of the channel on a couple of semi-commercial waterways after hearing what sounded like the Queen Mary approaching only to see that it was emanating from a smallish narrowboat clapping.gif

You need one like these,http://www.safety-marine.co.uk/horns-bells-and-signal-shapes/p4117s19/ongaro-stainless-steel-twin-electric-trumpet-horn-5-yr-warranty.htm

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I was on the Thames in September and had an incident which could have been catastrophic. No harm was done but it's something I want to avoid a repeat of and I'm uncertain of the correct procedure. I wonder if anyone can advise?

 

I was exiting a narrow side channel (a marina) onto the Thanes and could not see if any boats were approaching to my left (or right). I have a 60 ft narrowboat and had no crew on hand to stand on the bow and advise me of oncoming traffic. I figured that if a boat was approaching, it would see me edging out of the marina and sound a horn, slow down or drive around me. As it turned out, a mid-sized cruiser was approaching at top speed . The rear section of my boat was still in the side channel as it went past and I could see that the pilot / captain was looking behind him, talking to one of his passengers. It missed me (or I missed it ), probably by about 2 feet. The 2 of us exchanged looks of horror / blame and that was that. I understand that the guy in the cruiser should have paid attention to the channel but are there any other precautions I could have taken? Looking back, it would have been safer - although extremely difficult - if I'd reversed out of the marina and onto the main channel . I also could have sounded my horn as I was exiting. What's the protocol?

 

OK, I would say that there are three things that where wrong here, on your account;

 

On Your Part;

  • You failed to mount an adequate watch
  • You failed to give an appropriate signal

On his part;

  • He failed to mount an adequate watch

 

Had any of those 3 been rectified, it is less likely that the near miss would have occurred.

 

Looking at what you could have done differently;

 

  • You absolutely should have signalled with a long blast on the horn. You were the stand-off vessel, emerging into the main channel. You KNEW that it was highly likely that other vessels would be passing, and that you had no visibility of them. Edging out, in the hope that they would see you, without signalling was not a responsible course of action.
  • As a single hander, keeping a watch was clearly more difficult. However, it is up to you to ensure that you have an adequate crew on board. Saying that you couldn't keep an adequate watch is effectively a tacit admission that you didn't have adequate crew on board. You have acknowledged that you could possibly have reversed out, which would have been tricky, but would have solved the problem. You could also (perhaps) have slowed right down just at the entrance, and walked to the front yourself to take an observation.

Looking at what he could have done differently;

  • On your account, he could have kept a better watch. However, at the time he was the stand-on vessel, and had no immediate reason to suspect that a vessel was likely to emerge (you had more reason to expect to encounter him than he had reason to expect to encounter you).

My view is that as the stand-off vessel, you ought to have been more alert to the possibility of a conflicting movement, and taken all possible steps to avoid it.

  • Primarily, you should have signalled. There was no good reason not to do so, and I would hope that in future you would signal every time.
  • Secondly, you should have made a greater effort to take an observation, rather than taking the view that it was too difficult. That relies on everybody else making up for your failure.
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  • 3 weeks later...

Colregs may be a guide, but they don't apply on the UK canals! International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea 1972 (Colregs) says it all.

 

"1. Application

(a) These rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels."

 

"Nothing in these Rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads, harbours, rivers, lakes, or inland waterways connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessels. Such special rules shall conform as closely as possible to these Rules." "Although rules for navigating vessels inland may differ, the international rules specify that they should be as closely in line with the international rules as possible. In most of continental Europe, the Code Européen des Voies de la Navigation Intérieure (CEVNI, or the European Code for Navigation on Inland Waters) apply. In the United States, the rules for vessels navigating inland are published alongside the international rules." I'm quoting Wikipedia

Edited by mross
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