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Near miss .... but who had the right of way?


Joelsanders

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Probably that you were negligent in not sounding the horn & that even if you had sounded the horn it was not 'fit for purpose'.

 

Its not difficult, or expensive, to fit a pair of loud air-horns which are considerably better than an old car horn.

An aerosol operated horn may be another option / alternative.

 

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Almost exactly what happened to me some years ago, but on the cut, not a river.

I agree with Bottle, long blast of horn approach as slowly as possible.

Because of situations like this, a friend of mine who sails single handed fitted one of those cameras on the front end that transmits to a small lcd screen at the tiller.

I guess either of those strategies would be a solution. However, I'm beginning to think reversing out is the simple answer

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Why can't a single handed boater go forward and give the correct horn signal? I'm unclear

 

 

What gets me is boats that exit marinas like that and there IS crew all on the stern chatting. If you are single handed you cant go forward and give the correct sound signal for entering the tideway

 

Sound signals on the Thames

Most of these are standard in ColRegs. Some are extra sound signals peculiar to navigation on the Thames. You may never have cause to use them – but it’s as well to understand the signals of other vessels, as they are used a lot on the Thames.

. I am altering my course to starboard

.. I am altering my course to port

… My engines are going astern

…. . I am turning fully around to starboard

…. .. I am turning fully around to port

….. I do not understand your intentions

_ About to get underway / enter tideway / Approaching a blind bend

_ .. I am unable to manoeuvre (not under command)

_ _ . I intend to overtake you on your starboard side

_ _ .. I intend to overtake you on your port side

_ . _ . I agree to be overtaken

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Very interesting!

So let's say there had been a collision and it went to court

The stand on vessel had not seen me. I was "blind" . He was not.

The key act of negligence on my part was thar I had not sounded my horn but - even if I had - it's debatable whether he would have heard it.

What would the law decide?

 

 

I obviously have no way of knowing his exact speed but it was fast - more than 8 mph.

 

From you later description - I guess you were coming out of Shepperton marina (not that point is important - but the sight lines are zilch and in normal river conditions the stream will carry you downriver onto moored boats. I digress)

 

Folks will just NOT use sound signals on the Thames - that's a pain in one's fundament. I do and My Management objects strongly...

 

As to fault-

You did not sound your horn

By your own admission it would not have bee audible anyway

So that's two demerits to you...

 

The other boat (you say) was speeding.

Probably more serious in a dispute than yours

 

There are relatively few serious collision incidents on the River which results in most boaters treating good practice with contempt.

 

my rule is -

If in doubt whether my navigation actions (turning off, turning round, entering the main channel) can't be seen, or I can't see clearly -

Then I sound my horn with the appropriate signal.

it may disturb the peace (and deafen The Management - who is usually on the front deck) but it could save any hassle.

 

FWIW from my mooring I have to execute a 180 degree turn upstream to join the main channel (4 + 1) blasts on the horn because I can't see any boats coming downstream out of the lock cut. Apart from the safety aspect, the lockie hears my distinctive horn and gets the gates open.....

A win-win for me.

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Not a lot to add - I have a similar situation where I moor in Ely. It's only really practicable to exit the marina forwards, due to wind, current in the main channel, and lots of plastic boats either side of the marina exit.

 

The extra hazard is rowing eights which use that bit of river and are quite fast, hard to see, and easy to sink. On the other hand they usually have a coach in a launch with them. So I come out v slowly and stick the bows out a bit where they can be seen. I probably should use one of my (four) horns a bit more...

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I'm impressed . It was Shepperton marina. What did I write to give you that indication? Do you have special powers ?

 

From you later description - I guess you were coming out of Shepperton marina (not that point is important - but the sight lines are zilch and in normal river conditions the stream will carry you downriver onto moored boats. I digress)

 

Folks will just NOT use sound signals on the Thames - that's a pain in one's fundament. I do and My Management objects strongly...

 

As to fault-

You did not sound your horn

By your own admission it would not have bee audible anyway

So that's two demerits to you...

 

The other boat (you say) was speeding.

Probably more serious in a dispute than yours

 

There are relatively few serious collision incidents on the River which results in most boaters treating good practice with contempt.

 

my rule is -

If in doubt whether my navigation actions (turning off, turning round, entering the main channel) can't be seen, or I can't see clearly -

Then I sound my horn with the appropriate signal.

it may disturb the peace (and deafen The Management - who is usually on the front deck) but it could save any hassle.

 

FWIW from my mooring I have to execute a 180 degree turn upstream to join the main channel (4 + 1) blasts on the horn because I can't see any boats coming downstream out of the lock cut. Apart from the safety aspect, the lockie hears my distinctive horn and gets the gates open.....

A win-win for me.

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just one thing to add; yes to the horn signal but there is a Thames bye law ( and the canal bye laws if I remember correctly ) that you must have sufficient crew ( the implication being at least one ) so if you can't keep a proper lookout you should have had one extra.

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Just to clarify, the speed limits on the Thames are 8kph above Teddington (the relevant one here), 8 knots per hour from there to Wandsworth Bridge, and 12 knots per hour (formerly 24 up to about 2008) from there to Greenwich.

 

On my one trip on a narrowboat on the Thames, going down from Oxford to Reading in July, I got the impression that some of the plastic boats were doing over 8kph; even though there was only a slow flow helping us, we must have been not far short of that speed, but it didn't take them long to overtake us. It wasn't a problem for us, they weren't going mad.

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I'm impressed . It was Shepperton marina. What did I write to give you that indication? Do you have special powers ?

 

 

Yes, indeedy - I'm a Thames Boater!! (haha)

'Born' a canal boater - but the Thames is between us and the narrow stuff. Intended to keep the boat on the Oxford canal, but soon found out that a 2 hour + journey by car was 'not much fun', so suffered the expense and keep the boat on the River.

 

There are few fuelling points and most are 'bankside'. Only three are inside the marina and of which only Shepperton has a footbridge on the way in. (The other two are Penton Hook and TingDene). Easy really.

Shepperton used to have the best prices so in the past we used it frequently.

 

Although an astronomically expensive place to moor the River has a special charm which you only discover through continued use. Most of the lockies do the job because they love it and as such have a wealth of local knowledge, so well worth having a short chat while waiting for the lock to fill / empty. They 'respect' narrow boaters because most can handle their boats - unlike all sorts of cruisers who don't.

 

Sadly most visitors treat it as a way to get from Brentford / Oxford to the K&A and just use it as a corridor - so I take any opportunity to plug its features.

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I always get nervous when heading to llangollen because I am almost always singlehanding, and there is no way you can then tell if there's a string of boats coming at you round the corners in the narrow bits. Which is why i tend to approach (and leave) it at five in the morning (slowly, as well)... hearing horn signals isn't a lot of use as I'm standing on top of an air-cooled Lister, added to which half the people I meet round blind corners are older and deafer than I am. I just tend to do everything where i can't see what's coming extremely slowly, but that's easier on canals than rivers.

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I've cruised the Thames a few times times and I do love it but the perils are very different to the canals. I'm continuing to learn that I have so much more to learn . On this recent trip, I also managed to get grounded on a sandbank. It was an hour before sunset with no one else around. I even called the fire brigade (no one picking up at the EA) but managed to free myself before they arrived. It was the most stressful boating incident I've experienced to date.... but I still love the Thames .

 

 

Yes, indeedy - I'm a Thames Boater!! (haha)

'Born' a canal boater - but the Thames is between us and the narrow stuff. Intended to keep the boat on the Oxford canal, but soon found out that a 2 hour + journey by car was 'not much fun', so suffered the expense and keep the boat on the River.

 

There are few fuelling points and most are 'bankside'. Only three are inside the marina and of which only Shepperton has a footbridge on the way in. (The other two are Penton Hook and TingDene). Easy really.

Shepperton used to have the best prices so in the past we used it frequently.

 

Although an astronomically expensive place to moor the River has a special charm which you only discover through continued use. Most of the lockies do the job because they love it and as such have a wealth of local knowledge, so well worth having a short chat while waiting for the lock to fill / empty. They 'respect' narrow boaters because most can handle their boats - unlike all sorts of cruisers who don't.

 

Sadly most visitors treat it as a way to get from Brentford / Oxford to the K&A and just use it as a corridor - so I take any opportunity to plug its features.

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Very interesting!

So let's say there had been a collision and it went to court

The stand on vessel had not seen me. I was "blind" . He was not.

The key act of negligence on my part was thar I had not sounded my horn but - even if I had - it's debatable whether he would have heard it.

What would the law decide?

Since both of you are required to have insurance, it is very unlikely that it would reach court as they would rather reach a settlement between themselves, even if it is not necessarily what the insured boaters wished for. Unless there was death or serious injury, it would not be a criminal matter.

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We've all done it, but I suspect that in law you weould be deemed to have inadequate crew for the type of boat.

 

 

What law is that ?

 

I know this happened on the Thames, but on the canal the following:

 

BW Bylaw 9: "Every vessel navigated on any canal shall have in attendance an adequate and competent crew.

 

Bylaw 20 would also seem to be relevant to this situation: "Vessels turning in or into any canal shall do so in such a manner as not to cause obstruction or interference to any other vessel using the canal."

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Interesting thread you've started here Joel! Your own predicament emerging from the marina shows exactly why the 'Stand On Vessel' should also be prepared to alter course or speed to avoid a collision. To be fair, the COLREGs were perhaps not written with canal navigation at their core, but they do normally allow the 'blind' vessel to be Stand On Vessel (which rather makes sense!). In your case that's not quite the case perhaps, but it is still incumbent on the vessel in the main channel to avoid colliding with you too. If he can't see that it's safe to proceed, even if he has 'right of way' as it were, he should be navigating accordingly - i.e. he should slow down at bends, bridges and junctions (or whatever the potential hazard might be); be prepared to stop; be alert for sound signals; and, as always, maintain a good all round lookout.

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Why can't a single handed boater go forward and give the correct horn signal? I'm unclear

 

 

My bad wording again. I meant he cant go forward on his boat and look to see whats coming as he goes out if he is single handed. The best he can do is go slow and give the sound signal.

To be fair, the COLREGs were perhaps not written with canal navigation at their core, but they do normally allow the 'blind' vessel to be Stand On Vessel (which rather makes sense!).

He wasn't on the canals he was on the River Thames

 

Then I sound my horn with the appropriate signal.

it may disturb the peace (and deafen The Management - who is usually on the front deck) but it could save any hassle.

 

 

I have management, who is at the bows check.

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My bad wording again. I meant he cant go forward on his boat and look to see whats coming as he goes out if he is single handed. The best he can do is go slow and give the sound signal.

He wasn't on the canals he was on the River Thames

Well he can but then wouldn't be classed as being in control of his vessel biggrin.png

 

I know that colregs cover up to Teddington lock but what rules cover the river above?

I think that colregs do but I've had that argument discussed this at length before without proper resolution.cool.png

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I believe that :

 

1) Colregs apply on all waterways unless local rules / byelaws have been issued and / or are overriding the Colregs.

2) In case where local regs have been issued, but where the local regs do not cover the 'incident' then Colregs apply

3) If no local 'regs' have been issued then Colregs apply

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There are several Thames byelaws very relevant to this situation.

 

29. The master of every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.

 

30 (a) to (d). advise how such risk may be minimised.

 

but 32b. puts additional responsibility on one party:

 

32b. . The master of a vessel nearing a bend or an area of narrow channel, fairway, bridge or place where other vessels may be obscured by an intervening obstruction shall navigate with particular alertness and caution and may sound the appropriate signal prescribed in Byelaw 18. (one prolonged blast to be answered with a prolonged blast by the other vessel).

 

There is no Thames byelaw stipulating any minimum crew number for any vessel other than when towing or under tow.

Edited by erivers
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And..... It's daft to blindly assume that the other vessel either knows or will abide by COLREGS at sea, on rivers, or on canals - which is precisely why the Stand On Vessel should also be prepared to avoid a collision. Collisions are at best unpleasant for both parties involved.

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There are several Thames byelaws very relevant to this situation.

 

29. The master of every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.

 

30 (a) to (d). advise how such risk may be minimised.

 

but 32b. puts additional responsibility on one party:

 

32b. . The master of a vessel nearing a bend or an area of narrow channel, fairway, bridge or place where other vessels may be obscured by an intervening obstruction shall navigate with particular alertness and caution and may sound the appropriate signal prescribed in Byelaw 18. (one prolonged blast to be answered with a prolonged blast by the other vessel).

 

There is no Thames byelaw stipulating any minimum crew number for any vessel other than when towing or under tow.

 

But they do say this

 

"The master of every vessel shall keep or cause to be kept a proper look-out by sight and hearing and shall observe any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen or watermen or by the special circumstances of the case particularly in times of high flow or by other dangerous conditions of navigation."

 

1993 rules

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There are several Thames byelaws very relevant to this situation.

 

29. The master of every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.

 

30 (a) to (d). advise how such risk may be minimised.

 

but 32b. puts additional responsibility on one party:

 

32b. . The master of a vessel nearing a bend or an area of narrow channel, fairway, bridge or place where other vessels may be obscured by an intervening obstruction shall navigate with particular alertness and caution and may sound the appropriate signal prescribed in Byelaw 18. (one prolonged blast to be answered with a prolonged blast by the other vessel).

 

There is no Thames byelaw stipulating any minimum crew number for any vessel other than when towing or under tow.

An interesting implication from this is that you may go single handed, but if you do have crew you must tell one of them to go and keep a look out from the bow at any blind corner where the steerer has an inadequate view. This makes sense to me on any waterway; as crew it's something I routinely do without being asked if I know there's a tight corner or bridge hole coming.

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There are several Thames byelaws very relevant to this situation.

 

 

I've not checked but almost certainly the byelaws will include definitions which specify how loud your horn must be. If you think yours would not have been heard it is probably not up to par.

 

In the UK people tend to associate horns with road rage. On our courses in France we have great difficulty getting English people to do more than give a very tentative 1/2 second toot on their horn when they are supposed to be giving 1 long blast lasting 4 seconds. They are signals - they are what you are supposed to sound to inform others of your intentions.

 

One L - O - N - G blast is what you should have sounded here ((followed by the 'imminent danger of collison" signal (five very short blasts) if he failed to respond).

 

Tam

Edited by Tam & Di
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