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Near miss .... but who had the right of way?


Joelsanders

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I was on the Thames in September and had an incident which could have been catastrophic. No harm was done but it's something I want to avoid a repeat of and I'm uncertain of the correct procedure. I wonder if anyone can advise?

 

I was exiting a narrow side channel (a marina) onto the Thanes and could not see if any boats were approaching to my left (or right). I have a 60 ft narrowboat and had no crew on hand to stand on the bow and advise me of oncoming traffic. I figured that if a boat was approaching, it would see me edging out of the marina and sound a horn, slow down or drive around me. As it turned out, a mid-sized cruiser was approaching at top speed . The rear section of my boat was still in the side channel as it went past and I could see that the pilot / captain was looking behind him, talking to one of his passengers. It missed me (or I missed it ), probably by about 2 feet. The 2 of us exchanged looks of horror / blame and that was that. I understand that the guy in the cruiser should have paid attention to the channel but are there any other precautions I could have taken? Looking back, it would have been safer - although extremely difficult - if I'd reversed out of the marina and onto the main channel . I also could have sounded my horn as I was exiting. What's the protocol?

Edited by Joelsanders
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And thank you Tidal,... Although a strategy for ensuring that I could see would be useful.. Reversing out is the only option I can think of

We've all done it, but I suspect that in law you weould be deemed to have inadequate crew for the type of boat.

What law is that ?

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Somewhere in the back of my mind i remember a little ditti about a man just about to go under the water for the third time, Raising his arms and shouting, " But i had the right of way!

 

I think the collision regs state that all boats must adhere the rules of the road, untill, such time as it is plain that there will be a collision, then it is your duty to prevent it!

 

Nipper

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And thank you Tidal,... Although a strategy for ensuring that I could see would be useful.. Reversing out is the only option I can think of

 

What law is that ?

 

On a canal it's relatively easy there's no current (or every little) and you can stop with you nose just out of the entrance and run up to the bows pointy end front and check.

Not so easy when entering a river though.

Single-handed you often rely on a bit of mutual co-operation and courtesy

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Somewhere in the back of my mind i remember a little ditti about a man just about to go under the water for the third time, Raising his arms and shouting, " But i had the right of way!

 

I think the collision regs state that all boats must adhere the rules of the road, untill, such time as it is plain that there will be a collision, then it is your duty to prevent it!

 

Nipper

Since the incident, I've been having nightmares that it ended up on a "when boating goes bad" YouTube compilation.

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Since the incident, I've been having nightmares that it ended up on a "when boating goes bad" YouTube compilation.

That's a good idea.rolleyes.gif

I've seen many a near miss (and some good solid hits) when boats leave side channels

Might be fun to set up a camera at a known hot spot

 

biggrin.png

 

Don't worry overly much. You missed each other after all

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Since the incident, I've been having nightmares that it ended up on a "when boating goes bad" YouTube compilation.

Yes, well, it happens to the big boys as well!

 

Just think of all the oil that have been spilled due to not obeying the Collision regs! And that is what it all boils down too, Not obeying the rules!

 

Wether your in a small cruiser or a large steamer, those rules are there to prevent such things, they were also written a long time ago!

 

Also those rules will be used in a court of law should one have an incident! Be it in a Narrow Boat or Super Tanker.

 

Of coarse, those rules are are quite minor on the rivers and Canals, but they are still apt!

 

Nipper

Edited by nipper
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I would say in answer to the original question, the boat in the main channel had right of way.

 

The boat entering the channel should have given a single long blast on the horn, but would a typical Narrowboat horn been loud enough for the other boat to hear.

 

As to the boat in the main channel he should have been looking where he was going. You also say he was going at top speed, given the speed limit is 8kph (assuming this was non-tidal Thames) then clearly he should not have been going very fast at all.

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I would say in answer to the original question, the boat in the main channel had right of way.

The boat entering the channel should have given a single long blast on the horn, but would a typical Narrowboat horn been loud enough for the other boat to hear.

As to the boat in the main channel he should have been looking where he was going. You also say he was going at top speed, given the speed limit is 8kph (assuming this was non-tidal Thames) then clearly he should not have been going very fast at all.

 

Even at 8 mph, a direct hit would have caused significant damage (to the cruiser).

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Somewhere in the back of my mind i remember a little ditti about a man just about to go under the water for the third time, Raising his arms and shouting, " But i had the right of way!

 

I think the collision regs state that all boats must adhere the rules of the road, untill, such time as it is plain that there will be a collision, then it is your duty to prevent it!

 

Nipper

Correct.

 

There's no such thing as right of way (RoW ) in navigation. Instead, the vessel we would associate with having RoW in a traffic situation becomes the Stand On Vessel. This ensures both parties know what to expect and, if they both do what's expected, all will be well. If you're Stand On Vessel and it becomes clear that there will be a collision if you both keep doing what your doing, the Stand On Vessel is also expected to alter course and/or speed to avoid it.

 

Far more sensible really and a lot of road accidents could be avoided if no-one thought Right of Way was an inalienable right they should fight and, if necessary, die for.

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Even at 8 mph, a direct hit would have caused significant damage (to the cruiser).

The non-tidal Thames is 8kph ie approx 5mph speed limit. Of course a collision would still cause damage and be dangerous but I would not describe it as top speed for a cruiser. They should have had time to react from the time they saw you bow emerging at that speed, had they been looking of course. Of course he may well have been going significantly faster, it which case combined with not looking where he is going is an accident waiting to happen.
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Correct.

 

There's no such thing as right of way (RoW ) in navigation. Instead, the vessel we would associate with having RoW in a traffic situation becomes the Stand On Vessel. This ensures both parties know what to expect and, if they both do what's expected, all will be well. If you're Stand On Vessel and it becomes clear that there will be a collision if you both keep doing what your doing, the Stand On Vessel is also expected to alter course and/or speed to avoid it.

 

Far more sensible really and a lot of road accidents could be avoided if no-one thought Right of Way was an inalienable right they should fight and, if necessary, die for.

 

Indeed!

 

Also, when i take yachts to foreign places, France, Spain etc. I always instruct the crew that will be on watch, that there will be no hiding behind the spray hood, and that I require an all round lookout at all times and that includes looking behind us, wether the boat has radar, AIS or whatever else they have invented, there is no better system invented than a pair or two of eyes.

 

Most fishing boats in the Biscay or anywhere else for that matter don't have AIS and don't come up on the radar either!

 

Far to many small boats have been sunk by not looking behind them!

 

Now i will stop being a Captain Bligh and get this Narrow boat under way, complete with lookouts , of coarse! biggrin.png

 

Nipper

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Correct.

There's no such thing as right of way (RoW ) in navigation. Instead, the vessel we would associate with having RoW in a traffic situation becomes the Stand On Vessel. This ensures both parties know what to expect and, if they both do what's expected, all will be well. If you're Stand On Vessel and it becomes clear that there will be a collision if you both keep doing what your doing, the Stand On Vessel is also expected to alter course and/or speed to avoid it.

Far more sensible really and a lot of road accidents could be avoided if no-one thought Right of Way was an inalienable right they should fight and, if necessary, die for.

Very interesting!

So let's say there had been a collision and it went to court

The stand on vessel had not seen me. I was "blind" . He was not.

The key act of negligence on my part was thar I had not sounded my horn but - even if I had - it's debatable whether he would have heard it.

What would the law decide?

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I was on the Thames in September and had an incident which could have been catastrophic. No harm was done but it's something I want to avoid a repeat of and I'm uncertain of the correct procedure. I wonder if anyone can advise?

 

I was exiting a narrow side channel (a marina) onto the Thanes and could not see if any boats were approaching to my left (or right). I have a 60 ft narrowboat and had no crew on hand to stand on the bow and advise me of oncoming traffic. I figured that if a boat was approaching, it would see me edging out of the marina and sound a horn, slow down or drive around me. As it turned out, a mid-sized cruiser was approaching at top speed . The rear section of my boat was still in the side channel as it went past and I could see that the pilot / captain was looking behind him, talking to one of his passengers. It missed me (or I missed it ), probably by about 2 feet. The 2 of us exchanged looks of horror / blame and that was that. I understand that the guy in the cruiser should have paid attention to the channel but are there any other precautions I could have taken? Looking back, it would have been safer - although extremely difficult - if I'd reversed out of the marina and onto the main channel . I also could have sounded my horn as I was exiting. What's the protocol?

 

The visibility out of one marina we moored in was quite poor, caused by a footbridge that passed over the entrance, I got into the habit of reversing into the main channel so that I could see I wasn't going to impede anyone else, particularly one of the large commercial boats that used to pass the marina entrance. (But it was a very easy manoeuvre as we moored directly opposite the entrance so it might not work for everyone)

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The non-tidal Thames is 8kph ie approx 5mph speed limit. Of course a collision would still cause damage and be dangerous but I would not describe it as top speed for a cruiser. They should have had time to react from the time they saw you bow emerging at that speed, had they been looking of course. Of course he may well have been going significantly faster, it which case combined with not looking where he is going is an accident waiting to happen.

I obviously have no way of knowing his exact speed but it was fast - more than 8 mph.

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Very interesting!

So let's say there had been a collision and it went to court

The stand on vessel had not seen me. I was "blind" . He was not.

The key act of negligence on my part was thar I had not sounded my horn but - even if I had - it's debatable whether he would have heard it.

What would the law decide?

I'd suggest that not sounding your horn wasn't your only act of negligence, it was running into someone you (not the Stand On Vessel) had a duty to avoid.

 

However, don't shoot the messenger: I've been subject to these rules, but I didn't write them! :)

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The visibility out of one marina we moored in was quite poor, caused by a footbridge that passed over the entrance, I got into the habit of reversing into the main channel so that I could see I wasn't going to impede anyone else, particularly one of the large commercial boats that used to pass the marina entrance. (But it was a very easy manoeuvre as we moored directly opposite the entrance so it might not work for everyone)

It's a side issue but I was visiting the marina to get diesel. Had I been more familiar with the location , I'm sure I'd have developed a similar habit to what you describe. It was a one off visit though

I'd suggest that not sounding your horn wasn't your only act of negligence, it was running into someone you (not the Stand On Vessel) had a duty to avoid.

However, don't shoot the messenger: I've been subject to these rules, but I didn't write them! :)

I accept that which is the main reason for my post. Given that I was single handed and edging out slowly, are there any other strategies I could have deployed to maximise safety for myself and others ? Edited by Joelsanders
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I don't have a fixed car type horn on Percy, I do use a air horn which it quite loud and maybe something to carry when on the river. Lots have posted with much more experience but think you were right when you suggested you should have sounded the horn

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The key act of negligence on my part was thar I had not sounded my horn but - even if I had - it's debatable whether he would have heard it.

What would the law decide?

 

Probably that you were negligent in not sounding the horn & that even if you had sounded the horn it was not 'fit for purpose'.

 

Its not difficult, or expensive, to fit a pair of loud air-horns which are considerably better than an old car horn.

An aerosol operated horn may be another option / alternative.

 

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I was on the Thames in September and had an incident which could have been catastrophic. No harm was done but it's something I want to avoid a repeat of and I'm uncertain of the correct procedure. I wonder if anyone can advise?

 

I was exiting a narrow side channel (a marina) onto the Thanes and could not see if any boats were approaching to my left (or right). I have a 60 ft narrowboat and had no crew on hand to stand on the bow and advise me of oncoming traffic. I figured that if a boat was approaching, it would see me edging out of the marina and sound a horn, slow down or drive around me. As it turned out, a mid-sized cruiser was approaching at top speed . The rear section of my boat was still in the side channel as it went past and I could see that the pilot / captain was looking behind him, talking to one of his passengers. It missed me (or I missed it ), probably by about 2 feet. The 2 of us exchanged looks of horror / blame and that was that. I understand that the guy in the cruiser should have paid attention to the channel but are there any other precautions I could have taken? Looking back, it would have been safer - although extremely difficult - if I'd reversed out of the marina and onto the main channel . I also could have sounded my horn as I was exiting. What's the protocol?

Almost exactly what happened to me some years ago, but on the cut, not a river.

I agree with Bottle, long blast of horn approach as slowly as possible.

Because of situations like this, a friend of mine who sails single handed fitted one of those cameras on the front end that transmits to a small lcd screen at the tiller.

It's a side issue but I was visiting the marina to get diesel. Had I been more familiar with the location , I'm sure I'd have developed a similar habit to what you describe. It was a one off visit though

I accept that which is the main reason for my post. Given that I was single handed and edging out slowly, are there any other strategies I could have deployed to maximise safety for myself and others ?

That is half the problem with such incidents; if we are familiar with a location it is much easier to act accordingly, but the unfamiliar can catch us out very easily.

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I was on the Thames in September and had an incident which could have been catastrophic. No harm was done but it's something I want to avoid a repeat of and I'm uncertain of the correct procedure. I wonder if anyone can advise?

 

I was exiting a narrow side channel (a marina) onto the Thanes and could not see if any boats were approaching to my left (or right). I have a 60 ft narrowboat and had no crew on hand to stand on the bow and advise me of oncoming traffic. I figured that if a boat was approaching, it would see me edging out of the marina and sound a horn, slow down or drive around me. As it turned out, a mid-sized cruiser was approaching at top speed . The rear section of my boat was still in the side channel as it went past and I could see that the pilot / captain was looking behind him, talking to one of his passengers. It missed me (or I missed it ), probably by about 2 feet. The 2 of us exchanged looks of horror / blame and that was that. I understand that the guy in the cruiser should have paid attention to the channel but are there any other precautions I could have taken? Looking back, it would have been safer - although extremely difficult - if I'd reversed out of the marina and onto the main channel . I also could have sounded my horn as I was exiting. What's the protocol?

What gets me is boats that exit marinas like that and there IS crew all on the stern chatting. If you are single handed you cant go forward and give the correct sound signal for entering the tideway

 

Sound signals on the Thames

Most of these are standard in ColRegs. Some are extra sound signals peculiar to navigation on the Thames. You may never have cause to use them – but it’s as well to understand the signals of other vessels, as they are used a lot on the Thames.

. I am altering my course to starboard

.. I am altering my course to port

… My engines are going astern

…. . I am turning fully around to starboard

…. .. I am turning fully around to port

….. I do not understand your intentions

_ About to get underway / enter tideway / Approaching a blind bend

_ .. I am unable to manoeuvre (not under command)

_ _ . I intend to overtake you on your starboard side

_ _ .. I intend to overtake you on your port side

_ . _ . I agree to be overtaken

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