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Buying boat this week - need advice re mooring etc


Happydays66

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Hi

 

I recently asked advice on compression testing and received some great advice which helped me have a good discussion with the boatyard and ask the right questions. I have now decided to purchase the boat and was hoping you would be able to give me some pointers.

 

I am looking to moor the boat as near to the wirral merseyside as possible. Does anybody know of safe mooring at reasonable prices? I am thinking of mooring at a marina initially until I can get into a boat club (if possible) as I have heard mooring can be cheaper.

 

Is there a good insurance company I can use that again has reasonable costs and includes canal side recovery.

 

Is there a good company that offers good recovery packages that I could take up separate to insurance.

 

I realise there is a fixed licence fee that I have to pay and my boat has 2 years bsc to run and has had a full survey. Will the insurance company want to see the survey report which has reported good hull but needs exhaust outlet raising 7 inches as 3 inches above waterline at the moment (I expect due to recent fit out). Could that prevent me getting insurance until remedied?

 

Thanks in advance for any tips.

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There's some boats permanently moored at Ellesmere Port boat museum, but I don't know the arrangements here. Failing that the next nearest is top farm moorings in/near Stoak.


Next is Chester (Dee branch) but I don't think they can offer any there, not sure? Then its Christleton but there's no moorings there (I think they're no longer doing moorings or something??) then its Golden Nook.

 

Are you after residential or leisure mooring?

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Hi,

 

I'm afraid I don't know much about moorings in that part of the world but with regards insurance there's quite a few companie,s one such is Nautical Insurance Services http://www.nautical-insurance.co.uk, O17O2 47O811, and if you want an inland waterways breakdown call-out service, RCR (http://rivercanalrescue.co.uk) are the company that many people use.

 

LCx

Edited by Lady Cassandra
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Most insurance companies will request (demand) to see a copy of the survey if the boat is over a certain age - each company will have its own 'age requirements' and will vary between 15 and 30 years old.

If your boat is on the elderly side and has had 'issues' highlighted then there will be problems in obtaining insurance - having said that my Brother in Law has just bought a 1979 boat and obtained insurance with a survey with 'issues' on the proviso that if anything happens which could in the slightest way be attributable to those issues he has no insurance, until he has the issues fixed and proves / notifies the insurers they have been done.

If you have hull openings 3" above the water - irrespective of the insurance - you need to get them fixed immediately for your own safety & peace of mind.

 

Online insurer "Craftinsure" is reasonably priced and has a fair reputation for paying out.

 

A company called RCR (try google) is the "AA of the waterways" and gives various levels of cover starting ( I think) at about £80 per annum

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Thanks for the tips. Answers to questions below.

The narrowboat was built in 1980, is 35foot, and I am looking for leisure moorings.

I will be getting the exhaust raised as a priority and that will also qualify me a new bsc as part of the full survey package for an additional £35 when the work is done. Hopefully I can get insurance so I can move the boat to get it done. The boatyard selling the boat is a bit pricey in general for repairs but I will get a quote from them too.

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Thanks for the tips. Answers to questions below.

The narrowboat was built in 1980, is 35foot, and I am looking for leisure moorings.

I will be getting the exhaust raised as a priority and that will also qualify me a new bsc as part of the full survey package for an additional £35 when the work is done. Hopefully I can get insurance so I can move the boat to get it done. The boatyard selling the boat is a bit pricey in general for repairs but I will get a quote from them too.

 

At over 30 years old you will definitely need to produce a survey to get insurance - however - you do not need to have "fully comprehensive" insurance and legally (like with a car) can just have 3rd Party, you then do not need a survey, but you fund your own 'risks'

 

Like a car - as soon as you buy a boat any time left on the existing licence is cancelled and YOU are then responsible for licencing it from the day you take ownership.

 

In order to get the boat licenced you will need insurance, so, I would suggest that you initially go with 3rd party insurance ( or get agreement from the insurers that you can use the boat until getting the repairs done), then notify C&RT that you are moving the boat to get work done, and once you have a new BSS you will apply for a licence. That stops any risk of enforcement due to not having a licence.

 

This is allowed for in the legislation but you do need to seek C&RT approval (which shall not be withheld) BEFORE you do it. - a bit like you can use an untaxed car if you are taking it for a pre-booked MOT.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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At over 30 years old you will definitely need to produce a survey to get insurance - however - you do not need to have "fully comprehensive" insurance and legally (like with a car) can just have 3rd Party, you then do not need a survey, but you fund your own 'risks'

 

Like a car - as soon as you buy a boat any time left on the existing licence is cancelled and YOU are then responsible for licencing it from the day you take ownership.

 

In order to get the boat licenced you will need insurance, so, I would suggest that you initially go with 3rd party insurance ( or get agreement from the insurers that you can use the boat until getting the repairs done), then notify C&RT that you are moving the boat to get work done, and once you have a new BSS you will apply for a licence. That stops any risk of enforcement due to not having a licence.

 

This is allowed for in the legislation but you do need to seek C&RT approval (which shall not be withheld) BEFORE you do it. - a bit like you can use an untaxed car if you are taking it for a pre-booked MOT.

 

AIUI the boat has 2 years BSC to run, from reading the original post.

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AIUI the boat has 2 years BSC to run, from reading the original post.

 

Indeed, but he needs to get repairs done elsewhere, the survey has said there are 'problems' will the 'old' BSS be still valid with only 3" of 'freeboard' for the skin fittings ?

 

Its a way of moving the boat without having to worry about getting the licence "now".

If he applies for a licence next week, not only will it be back dated to 1st September so he will only get 11 months, but he will not get his early payment discount - loss of £131.00

 

By waiting until next week, , then licencing it from 1st October he saves £71 in early payment bonus and £60 by not losing 1 months licence.

Money needs to be saved where it can.

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You can't be exempt from a licence by saying you need work done and need to move the boat, if the boat already has BSC. It has one, and it is valid, because there is no official mechanism by which they're invalidated (I guess there's some kind of way if the examiner makes an admin error etc but this is not the case here).

 

The seaworthiness is a different matter - particularly regarding the exhaust. I don't understand why the exhaust would have been lowered so much during a refit, unless someone fitted another engine or exhaust and inadvertently (on unknowing of the consequences...) lowered it. Possibly it was marginal beforehand anyway, and the refit has lowered it an inch or so?

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Yes the boat has a 2 year bsc left to run.

Re the question about replating. The boat has not been replated. Plate thickness was between 4 and 6mm. The lower readings were taken at the outer edge of the base plate at the turn of the aft swim. The boat was blacked in July this year and surveyor has recommended I attach shoe plates at the turn of the aft swim on both port and starboard sides to minimise any wear in these areas (6ft by 10inches) at the next blacking in 2 years.

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You can't be exempt from a licence by saying you need work done and need to move the boat, if the boat already has BSC. It has one, and it is valid, because there is no official mechanism by which they're invalidated (I guess there's some kind of way if the examiner makes an admin error etc but this is not the case here).

 

The seaworthiness is a different matter - particularly regarding the exhaust. I don't understand why the exhaust would have been lowered so much during a refit, unless someone fitted another engine or exhaust and inadvertently (on unknowing of the consequences...) lowered it. Possibly it was marginal beforehand anyway, and the refit has lowered it an inch or so?

 

This was the section to which I was referring

Having read it again it appears to say that they will not withhold their consent if the vessel requires repair to bring it up to 'scratch' (BSS)

 

Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (a) above, the Board shall not withhold their consent under this subsection to the movement or use of a vessel for the purpose of taking it to a place where it may be repaired or modified so as to comply with the standards applicable to it, or for the purpose of taking the vessel to be destroyed, unless such movement or use would give rise to the risk of obstruction or danger to navigation or to persons or property.

 

ON the subject of BSS validity, it is surely only valid at the instant of the vessel being tested - the following day you could rip out your gas cooker leaving uncapped pipes, smash the sight glass in your petrol tank and puncture the fuel pipes allowing petrol to drip onto your spark plugs and exhaust.

In fact on looking at my BSS it specifically states :

 

"This certificate relates only to the facts observed at the time of the examination. It is not evidence of compliance with the navigation authorities' requirements at any other time.

The validity of this certificate may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained and/or changes are made."

 

So you fit an ebespacher diesel fire heater using flexible piping from your tank and your BSS in invalid ?

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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This was the section to which I was referring

Having read it again it appears to say that they will not withhold their consent (licence) if the vessel requires repair to bring it up to 'scratch' (BSS)

 

Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (a) above, the Board shall not withhold their consent under this subsection to the movement or use of a vessel for the purpose of taking it to a place where it may be repaired or modified so as to comply with the standards applicable to it, or for the purpose of taking the vessel to be destroyed, unless such movement or use would give rise to the risk of obstruction or danger to navigation or to persons or property.

 

ON the subject of BSS validity, it is surely only valid at the instant of the vessel being tested - the following day you could rip out your gas cooker leaving uncapped pipes, smash the sight glass in your petrol tank and puncture the fuel pipes allowing petrol to drip onto your spark plugs and exhaust.

In fact on looking at my BSS it specifically states :

 

"This certificate relates only to the facts observed at the time of the examination. It is not evidence of compliance with the navigation authorities' requirements at any other time.

The validity of this certificate may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained and/or changes are made."

 

So you fit an ebespacher diesel fire heater using flexible piping from your tank and your BSS in invalid ?

 

I think you're reading or interpreting the rules wrongly. If not, then in theory someone could obtain a BSS, then immediately change something, then head off on a very gradual, 4 year long, epic voyage from repair yard to repair yard, candlers etc slowly renovating a boat, without a licence.

 

The exemption is clearly intended for the case where a boat doesn't already have a valid BSS and doesn't have a licence, as a pragmatic measure to allow the boat to use the canal network to move to a place of repair - which I think's fair enough, within these boundaries.

 

BSS are valid for 4 years. Yes, there's an interesting debate about whether major or safety-affecting modifications should invalidate a BSS, but currently as the scheme and the law stands, it doesn't.

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Happydays66.

 

Remember as soon as you have bought the boat, it is your responsibility to insure the boat whether for third party or more.

 

Arrange for your insurance to start at the time and date you expect to buy it.

 

Of course there may be a delay if they need sight of the survey.

 

Then apply for the licence to start on the 1 st October, it will probably take that time to arrange insurance, buy the boat and get a licence..

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I think you're reading or interpreting the rules wrongly. If not, then in theory someone could obtain a BSS, then immediately change something, then head off on a very gradual, 4 year long, epic voyage from repair yard to repair yard, candlers etc slowly renovating a boat, without a licence.

But you have to apply to C&RT agree a timescale and get their acceptance - which should net be unreasonably withheld. Just the same as taking your untaxed car for a pre-arranged MOT

 

The exemption is clearly intended for the case where a boat doesn't already have a valid BSS and doesn't have a licence, as a pragmatic measure to allow the boat to use the canal network to move to a place of repair - which I think's fair enough, within these boundaries.

 

BSS are valid for 4 years. Yes, there's an interesting debate about whether major or safety-affecting modifications should invalidate a BSS, but currently as the scheme and the law stands, it doesn't. I think we will just have to disagree on that point as the BSS certificate clearly states that the BSS can be cancelled - how they find out about is a different matter.

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Do you have any further info (a link?) on BSS cancellation? I've never heard of BSS certificates being cancelled.

 

I have just quoted from my certificate - I would guess there will be something on their website - I found this after a very quick search :

 

If any works have affected or disturbed previously compliant items; or if modification to any boat system is made known by the owner (or owner's representative); or if modifications are identified during the re-examination, then a full examination of the particular modified system (e.g. gas, electric, diesel etc.), must be carried out, irrespective of the interval since the previous full examination.

 

Doesn't cover withdrawl of the certificate, but that maybe elsewhere.

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Exactly - we're not talking about the airline industry here, where aircraft maintenance is strictly administered and there is a comprehensive audit trail and oversight by aviation authorities etc. The fact is, owners, boatyards, "engineers", tradesmen etc are simply allowed to work on boats, and they get looked at every 4 years. The fact that its a 4 year gap between inspections (compare to MoTs, which are 1 year - and AREN'T 2 years like some EU countries....etc) illustrates that its not a massively critical, concerning or high risk area, its simply a piece of admin which the vast majority of boat owners grudgingly accept and the navigation authorities (and others) jumped on because it ticks a boc for them and props up their business model.

 

I suppose in theory there is a case to be made for the withdrawal of a certificate where a seller/broker clearly offers a boat which has been massively modified since its BSS, for example I've heard a scam where small GRP boaters have removed the door, then the boat is classed as an "open" boat and subject to a much lesser test. Or, things are removed for the BSS then replaced afterwards; or subsequently fitted. But how on earth would it be administered? Would BSS or another body be able to do a spot check on a boat? Would some kind of person, possibly with qualifications (and I know there aren't any needed...) such as surveyors be able to withdraw a certificate? etc etc. Completely unworkable IMHO.

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My surveyor won't give me a new BSC without this repair. It was top of his list as was capping off an unused outlet 10 inches above the waterline.

Maybe sometimes the boater is reliant on the surveyors views and interpretations of the BSS.

 

To me that implies that the boat 'as is' is unable to meet the requirements of the BSS and therefore something has changed since the last BSS (or the individual surveyors opinions are opposed).

 

That to me would mean that the boat is unable to meet the criteria for the issue of the licence as it no longer "meets the standards for the construction and equipment of vessels prescribed under section 17 and Part II of Schedule 2.of the 1995 Act"

 

(Not saying that the surveyor is correct as I believe that the height of hull fittings above the waterline is advisory only unless it is a 'commercial' boat.)

From the BSS regulations :-

 

The provisions of this section of Part 10 in the 2002 BSS Standards are mandatory for non-private boats where applicable.

To reduce the risk of your boat sinking if it keels over or is excessively weighed down, it's a good idea for privately owned boats to only have openings which are at a height of at least 250mm (10ins) above the waterline. Where openings are necessary below this level this risk can be reduced by ensuring that these openings are permanently and securely connected to ducts or pipes, which are watertight up to that level.

Self-draining cockpits may not be able to meet the 250mm (10ins) recommendation but, for privately owned boats, it's a good idea to stop water getting into other parts of the hull by incorporating non-return valves in the drains and/or having bulkheads or cills up to a height of 150mm (6ins).

A weed hatch, if not properly secured, can allow water into the bilges of a boat, which could ultimately cause it to sink. It's advisable for privately owned boats to have a secure and watertight weed hatch which reaches to at least 150mm (6ins) above the waterline, when the boat is loaded up as normal. [10.3]

 

The provisions of this section of Part 10 in the 2002 BSS Standards are mandatory for non-private boats where applicable.

An effective valve or cock fitted in water intake pipes can reduce the risk of the boat sinking if the pipe is damaged in some way. It's a good idea to fit these to all skin hull fittings that are below the water line when the boat is normally loaded, since they allow you to quickly isolate any water intakes. [10.4]

 

info.gifAny openings in the hull must be at least 250mm above the normal laden water line. However, if this cannot be achieved for, say, a sink outlet, you should ensure that the outlet pipe within the vessel is watertight to that height inside the vessel. This will achieve the same objective of preventing water seeping into the boat. The pipe joints need to be clipped to remain watertight - push-fit plumbing is not recommended in case it comes apart under pressure. [10.4]

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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