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Origin of winding hole?


Ian B

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Without wishing to enter the fray as regards the actual, practical derivation of the term, I'd suggest that if it *is* derived from the same root as wind-as-in-clock, then the different pronunciation is not necessarily a corruption and is not that big a deal. It might reflect the fact of different regional pronunciations at the time the meanings diverged (although they're not actually that divergent, which is why I'm inclined on lingusitic grounds alone to favour this theory and think that the wind-as-in-blowing similarity is a coincidence).

 

Don't forget that Shakespeare had no problem rhyming ' blow, blow thou winter wind' with 'unkind' though I suppose we'll never know which way round he did it.

Strangely though off the top of my head wind (that blows or as in turning a boat) is the only example I can think of of a single syllable -ind word with a short i

(The only multi-syllable one I can think of is rescind ...)

 

But I don't think the pronunciation is actually significant at all; English pronunciation has always been very flexible, not to say frequently eccentric. Bill Bryson's book Mother Tongue is very good on the reasons for this.

 

Now, what about bow-hauling?

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Now, what about bow-hauling?

 

 

Its either 1, bow (as in & arrow) derived from the Anglo-Saxon boga, an arch or bow, referring to the loop of rope you put over your shoulder or round your waist, or

 

2, bow (the pointy end of yer boat) from German dialect boog or Dutch boeg, a ship's bow, or a shoulder.

 

Then again it could be bow as in genuflect, the attitude you adopt while doing it, oddly enough pronounced like 2 but derived from 1.

 

Tricky things, words!

 

Rick :lol:

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If Rose Whitlock told you, and I am assuming that is who you are referring to, then it almost certainly correct. As you will know, she came from a long line of Working Boat families and was a stickler for getting the traditions and terminology correct. Furthermore she knew how to work horse boats and would have been familiar with the winding techniques using a horse to pull the boat round. I am not sure that it was her who told me the origins of the term Winding, but it would almost certainly have been one of the ex Barlows crews.

It was Laura Carter. I never got the opportunity to meet Rose.

 

 

Now, what about bow-hauling?

The funny thing about bow-hauling is that if you pull from the bow, the boat just goes straight for the tow-path. The best way of doing it is to pull the stern rope and use the bow rope to keep the bows in the middle of the cut.

 

Of course if the wind is blowing the boat off the tow path you can pull from the luby pin. Perhaps, as this is wind assisted it should be correctly called 'winding'? :lol:

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It was Laura Carter. I never got the opportunity to meet Rose.

That's just as good. From recollection Laura was Rose's cousin (or second cousin) and also comes from a long line of boating families. You certainly missed a memorable character. Rose was not universally poular within the boating community, as some thought she was living too far back into the past. Nevertheless she was friendly enough to outsiders, but was not unwilling to release her sharp wit on anyone she met. I can well remember one occassion, when I was making an early attempt to paint roses on a can, her comment as they went past was "Eee look, he can paint daisys" which was a fair comment, but a bit unkind.

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Oh, and just to wind :lol: the purists up, I talk about front and back, and left and right, especially in a loud voice with people about at a lock.............

 

I'm sure the old boaters never used port and starboard and other such nautical terms.......Astern for example....it was holding back from what I've been led to believe...

 

Just to confuse matters they used the term 'back end', not for the stern of the boat but the back end of the hold.....

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I've trawled the Internet and can find little in the way of definate explanation, maybe there isnt one. There are web sites which go on to explain all kinds of theories, the main one though is the wind assisting theory.

 

The term wind or winding (as in blow), is frequently refered to in sailing circles not just for turning the boat but for manouvering the boat in certain conditions. Of course its fairly obvious if you think about it for a large ship or sailing vessel to use the wind in order to help turn it, no-one can get out and pull a rope. Big sailing ships of years ago had no other method of manouvering.

 

Its entirely possible, even probable that when the canal boats first appeared, they were crewed by experienced "sailors" or boatman from coastal waters.

 

With this in mind I find it hard to beleive that two types of boating(?) would use two completely different interpretations of the same term.

 

However, what do I know, I haven't been around narrowboats very long and I've never met any old boaty people to ask.

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Alythough I do not have first hand experience, I understand that many of the people that worked narrowboats had difficulty with the pronunciation of numerous terms and place names. For example did they mean Newbold when they said "Newb 'ole", or Helm when they said "Elum" . . .

 

Perhaps the "Winding" was just another mis-pronunciation - which is why I said in an earlier post that we need hard facts . . .

Can`t resist............

I always understood that the "wind assisted " definition is the right one . I have no hard facts other than that whoever told me years ago would have been either a retired working boatman/woman or someone like Ian Kemp ( who is now well known as a restorer - President for instance ) who formerly worked a pair of boats properly , carrying loose coal . He was the last boatman to take a loaded pair up the Anderton Lift before it closed in the 70`s or whenever. He was , and remains , very much steeped in the "lore". In my learning years on the canal there was never any doubt why it was known as "winding" - the definition was never questioned. Nowadays there are very few of the old working boaters left . Someone really ought to make sure that we learn all we can from them while there is still chance. They didn`t need "facts" or any other proof about things that to them were just a part of their daily lives/language.

Cheers

Phil

Edited by Phil Speight
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I've trawled the Internet and can find little in the way of definate explanation, maybe there isnt one. There are web sites which go on to explain all kinds of theories, the main one though is the wind assisting theory.

 

The term wind or winding (as in blow), is frequently refered to in sailing circles not just for turning the boat but for manouvering the boat in certain conditions. Of course its fairly obvious if you think about it for a large ship or sailing vessel to use the wind in order to help turn it, no-one can get out and pull a rope. Big sailing ships of years ago had no other method of manouvering.

 

Its entirely possible, even probable that when the canal boats first appeared, they were crewed by experienced "sailors" or boatman from coastal waters.

 

With this in mind I find it hard to beleive that two types of boating(?) would use two completely different interpretations of the same term.

 

However, what do I know, I haven't been around narrowboats very long and I've never met any old boaty people to ask.

A nautical definition:-

 

Term: wind (v)

Definition: 1) To haul up using a capstan 2) To move a ship by hauling on ropes.

See Also: kedge

 

kedge (v)

Definition: To move a ship using an anchor and winch. To kedge off, or to wind. The small anchor is rowed out in the desired direction and let go. The crew on board ship then hauls in the rode drawing the ship toward the anchor.

See Also: wind

 

I started off my boating under sail but I haven't heard it used before, I did know what kedging was though and it is usually done in the absence of wind.

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The term wind or winding (as in blow), is frequently refered to in sailing circles not just for turning the boat but for manouvering the boat in certain conditions. Of course its fairly obvious if you think about it for a large ship or sailing vessel to use the wind in order to help turn it, no-one can get out and pull a rope. Big sailing ships of years ago had no other method of manouvering.

 

they used to swing boat out and with some of the lusty lads from before the mast they would tow her around.

 

Nick

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Can I respectfully suggest a decent helping of common sense is necessary here. The old boating folk would have turned their boats when and where necessary, with or without the wind.

They couldn't afford to sit around waiting for the wind to blow before they could move (and earn their keep!) They would have had their techniques for any and every set of circumstances whatever they were and wherever they were.

If the wind was blowing they would have had to do what they were doing with every consideration for the wind and its direction. I suggest they would have put it to good use whenever they could and would have had a way of dealing with it if it wasn't convenient.

What verb they used to describe what they were doing would have depended on their dialect and their education, the latter of which was probably very limited and often non-existent.

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Can I respectfully suggest a decent helping of common sense is necessary here. The old boating folk would have turned their boats when and where necessary, with or without the wind.

They couldn't afford to sit around waiting for the wind to blow before they could move (and earn their keep!) They would have had their techniques for any and every set of circumstances whatever they were and wherever they were.

If the wind was blowing they would have had to do what they were doing with every consideration for the wind and its direction. I suggest they would have put it to good use whenever they could and would have had a way of dealing with it if it wasn't convenient.

What verb they used to describe what they were doing would have depended on their dialect and their education, the latter of which was probably very limited and often non-existent.

 

It's odd, I've got an old book (can't remember which one) that states "winding (pronounced as in the thing that blows)", but, although I know it's "winding" (as in the thing that blows) I still call it "winding" (as in winding a watch) because people understand it better. Why is a lock called a lock? Why is a windlass called a windlass, should it not be windlass (as in winding a watch) because you're winding a paddle up? (or down)?

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It's odd, I've got an old book (can't remember which one) that states "winding (pronounced as in the thing that blows)", but, although I know it's "winding" (as in the thing that blows) I still call it "winding" (as in winding a watch) because people understand it better. Why is a lock called a lock? Why is a windlass called a windlass, should it not be windlass (as in winding a watch) because you're winding a paddle up? (or down)?

Windlass is a very old word pre-dating the Canals, and is derived from the Viking word Vindass, Vinda (meaning to turn), and Ass (meaning a stick or pole), so it basicly it means Turning Stick.

 

The modern pronounciation of windlass, as we all know, includes wind, as in the wind blowing, despite the meaning being to turn. Words do change in pronounciation over the years, and It is my understanding that Winding as in turning a boat has ecxactly the same derivation, and is nothing to do with the wind blowing a ship round.

 

I will now await a posting from John Orentas explaing how a Windlass can be turned using the wind :lol:

Edited by David Schweizer
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Windlass is a very old word pre-dating the Canals, and is derived from the Viking word Vindass, Vinda (meaning to turn), and Ass (meaning a stick or pole), so it basicly it means Turning Stick.

 

The modern pronounciation of windlass, as we all know, includes wind, as in the wind blowing, despite the meaning being to turn. Words do change in pronounciation over the years, and It is my understanding that Winding as in turning a boat has ecxactly the same derivation, and is nothing to do with the wind blowing a ship round.

Excellent, that's the best explanation I've heard for it and will do for me!

 

Good work!

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Excellent, that's the best explanation I've heard for it and will do for me!

 

Good work!

Yes,

The only corresponding nautical term I can find is defined as moving the boat in shallow waters using a winch and anchor. No mention of weather but what do you turn your anchor winch with?

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  • 11 years later...

Winding [definition]

Use the adjective winding to describe something with twists and turns, like a winding country road or a little winding mountain stream.

A path through the woods that has plenty of bends and curves in it is winding, and a river that curls and meanders down to the sea is also winding. The Beatles song "The Long and Winding Road" describes a twisting, indirect road. Winding has an Old English root, the word windan, which means "to turn, twist, or wind." Similar words such as ‘windlass’ have the same root.

Definitions of winding

[noun] the act of winding or twisting

Synonyms:

twisting, meandering, torturous

Type of:

rotary motion, rotation

the act of rotating as if on an axis

[adjective] marked by repeated turns and bends

Synonyms:

tortuous, twisting, twisty, crooked

having or marked by bends or angles; not straight or aligned

A winding hole is unlikely to have anything to do with the wind. It is simply the turning of a boat marked by repeated turns and bends.

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On 21/03/2007 at 12:04, John Orentas said:

I'm am amazed this question keeps coming up. Winding a boat whether on a canal or on the sea meant to rotate the boat or ship using the action of the wind, it's that simple.

Edited as tme expired

Edited by X Alan W
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