Seriously scary moment at Hillmorton - And another volunteer lock-keeper concern.

[billS]

 

 

This is especially poor etiquette, and a Volly really ought to know better.

 

I still suspect it's down to their training giving them the impression they are 'in charge' at a lock, hence they make the decisions.

 

Correct. It was a volley at Fradley that needed to be reminded that he was there to assist boaters - not to take charge of the operation. He stalked off to grumble to his colleague - but he did comply.

[Leo No2]

This is especially poor etiquette, and a Volly really ought to know better.

 

I still suspect it's down to their training giving them the impression they are 'in charge' at a lock, hence they make the decisions.

The training includes advice to ask the 'master' (i.e. The one one the tiller) if they would like some help along the lines of 'May I offer you some assistance'. If the answer is No then just stand back and be ready to help if something goes wrong otherwise help where you can and always get the OK from the skipper to raise a paddle. As has been said the boat is the responsibility of the 'master'. There's no reason why local advice can't be given e.g. Please close the gates as you leave, please ensure the locks are left empty because (and give the reason).

 

Some boaters will welcome the assistance others, as we know, prefer to manage the locking themselves - everyone has their own preferences.

[TheBiscuits]

Hopefully i wasn't one of them Dave.

 

My suspicion is that if you volunteer to be a locky you get sent on a one day training course, where the trainer explains a bit about dealing with the public, kids on bikes, grannies with sticks near locks etc... Then they get down to how a lock works in the afternoon.

 

After an hour or two of explaining and playing with a model of a lock, I suspect they then go outside to see a real one in action and maybe work a paddle or two. After that, it's back into the workshop for a final cup of tea and they leave having been pumped up by the trainer and given to believe they now know all there is to know about supervising a lock.

 

And I bet the word 'supervising' is used a lot, which is why there is a problem.

The ones we saw getting their training in Middlewich had precisely that, but there were a dozen of them being shown at the same time, and a couple of them were stood at the back of the group chatting instead of watching.

 

Of course they could have been highly experienced boaters who just needed the paperwork to be volockies. I didn't ask.

[churchward]

 

The thing that I will remark upon is that when they first introduced volunteers, I spoke out stridently (yes, I know, don't I always) against them, and made it clear that I wanted nothing to do with them, and that the only help that I required is that they leave me alone to work the lock.

 

I predicted that the role would bring some people who wanted to play their way, and would use their position to assert their right to do so

 

At the time, I was roundly criticised by many.

 

I was being precious about my boat. Volunteers would be trained. I should be delighted about this. Who the hell did I think I was with this "my lock" nonsense?

 

It would seem that experience has proved that we are ending up with too many people who aren't going to do it right.

Isn't your insistence than you want no assistance evidence of you wanting to play your way? I am not saying you must accept help though it's your choice and everyone should be able to choose to have the help or not.

 

I strongly disagree that volunteers at the locks are by their nature a bad thing. Some I have met have been boaters themselves. It is good to get people involved in the canals and there is no reason at all that a volunteer should not take a position of responsibility. It happens in many instances outside of the canal world.

 

I certainly do not think that just because you pay someone they will do a better job. Pay or volunteer the crux of the matter is proper training and procedures then making sure that folk are doing the job right when deployed. Get that right and their will be few issues. A professional C&RT person messed up at Grindley Brook staircase the last time we went through probably due to him not being there before as he admitted when he apologised.

[Tony Dunkley]

 

Normally accepted "good practice" when working a nominally 71' 6" through locks like these is to raise the fender out of use onto the deck, so that the metal stem of the boat is in contact with the gate, and should slide freely down it. The stems of working boats are usually to a design that freely allows and anticipates this, (though I accept Pete Harrison's point that he has been involved in "hangs" with a GUCCC Northwich stem).

 

Leaving the fender deployed introduces many other risks, not the least of which are that they regularly get caught on the many projections that modern gates often have, and also you end up with the back end maybe 6" closer to the cill than it needs be. (In fact were the button down you would struggle to get the gates open without reversing tight against the cill in some locks).

 

The lock-keeper didn't question that the fender was "up" and seemed to realise it is normal practice to let the metal stem slide down the gates.

 

The volunteer certainly should have dropped the paddle immediately and without querying why, but the root cause of the fore-end hanging up lays with what you've said about the stem bar 'sliding' down the gates. This only happens if locks are being worked too slowly and hesitantly, instead of drawing a bit of paddle at the bottom end first, before the boat is all the way in, causing the top gate to slam shut behind it and create a small 'flush' which then runs back and forth along the lock chamber making the boat repeatedly pull back and forth a few inches from the gates for the first two or three feet of the drop.

If boats aren't given time to settle and become static against the bottom gates then they're not in contact with anything to hang up on.

The same principles apply in double (wide) locks.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[Dharl]

Even highly experienced boaters should be paying attention. They might just be going through the motions, however should pay attention as a matter of courtesy to other people on the course who are not as experienced and certainly to who ever is giving the presentation.

[mayalld]

Isn't your insistence than you want no assistance evidence of you wanting to play your way? I am not saying you must accept help though it's your choice and everyone should be able to choose to have the help or not.

 

I strongly disagree that volunteers at the locks are by their nature a bad thing. Some I have met have been boaters themselves. It is good to get people involved in the canals and there is no reason at all that a volunteer should not take a position of responsibility. It happens in many instances outside of the canal world.

 

I certainly do not think that just because you pay someone they will do a better job. Pay or volunteer the crux of the matter is proper training and procedures then making sure that folk are doing the job right when deployed. Get that right and their will be few issues. A professional C&RT person messed up at Grindley Brook staircase the last time we went through probably due to him not being there before as he admitted when he apologised.

 

Yes, it certainly is evidence that I want to play my way, and as it is my boat, that is as it should be. Bev is steering and is in charge. By and large, we require no actual signals or instructions. Just the briefest nod to say "start", and a confidence that I can read what the boat is doing from the lockside (I can tell by whether the nose is up or down whether she is riding the gate, riding it hard, or about to back away).

 

That means that I can control the paddles to effect a rapid transit with no issues.

 

Volunteers would be fine, if they clearly understood what they should and should be doing, and stuck to it.

 

Unfortunately, many that I see give an impression of enjoying a bit of authority, and wanting to do the fun bits.

 

Volunteers could actually be useful if the stuck to opening and closing gates, reducing the time it takes to embark and disembark crew, and facilitating more inytensive use of the locks, but avoided actually interfering in the operation with boats in the lock.

 

I have never been asked by a volunteer if I want his help. I have been TOLD "stay on the boat, we're operating the lock"

 

The problem is that even with training that says "ask", if most people say "yes" they eventually start to assume that as the answer.

[Tam & Di]

Glad you emerged relatively unscathed and hope Odin forgets it quickly.

Your wine waiter needs a warning letter and a lot more practise.

 

I agree. I was just thinking that all the responses were about getting the boat hung up and not about the really important accident. I'm sure you don't drink cheap plonk, but I hope it was not one you've had in your cellars just waiting for the day to celebrate or commiserate with each other about some minor mishap.

 

Tam

[Hawthorn]

As there seem to be an increasing number of concerns regarding volunteer lock keepers, and none of us really know what training they are given, or what experience that have, it really is time that we boaters are given more information regarding their role. In the days of paid lock keepers such as used to be the case at Foxton Locks for example, boaters knew that the Lockie's job was to manage the flight, and we probably all deferred. It seems to me that the command/request, 'lower/drop the paddle' is one that should be acted on at once, whoever it comes from, and questions asked afterwards. The worst that can happen is a delay of a minute or so, whereas that same minutes delay in acting can have disastrous consequences, as a good few boaters have discovered this year.

[MEPitt]

Scary stuff! Im glad all are ok for their ordeal.

I am a novice when it comes to locks, Ive always been with a seasoned boater when handling them. I was always under the impression the boats skipper had the call when boats in the lock even with experienced full time lock keepers.

 

It does worry me slightly as when the Stroller is on the K&A I will be effectively solo going through locks.

[David Mack]

Who is legally liable for the action (or inaction) of a volunteer lock keeper? Is it CRT, which has recruited and trained the volunteer? Or the individual volunteer? Or even the boat owner/steerer? Sooner or later an insurance company, or worse the prosecuting authorities, is going to be asking that question.

 

My guess is that, although volunteers and unpaid, CRT has the same legal responsibility for their actions as it does for paid staff, and hence the same responsibility for training them to do the job, and for addressing any issues of competence and safety and disciplinary matters which may arise. Hence CRT should take very seriously any reports of incidents such as this one. But does anybody know if they do?

[churchward]

 

Yes, it certainly is evidence that I want to play my way, and as it is my boat, that is as it should be. Bev is steering and is in charge. By and large, we require no actual signals or instructions. Just the briefest nod to say "start", and a confidence that I can read what the boat is doing from the lockside (I can tell by whether the nose is up or down whether she is riding the gate, riding it hard, or about to back away).

 

That means that I can control the paddles to effect a rapid transit with no issues.

 

Volunteers would be fine, if they clearly understood what they should and should be doing, and stuck to it.

 

Unfortunately, many that I see give an impression of enjoying a bit of authority, and wanting to do the fun bits.

 

Volunteers could actually be useful if the stuck to opening and closing gates, reducing the time it takes to embark and disembark crew, and facilitating more inytensive use of the locks, but avoided actually interfering in the operation with boats in the lock.

 

I have never been asked by a volunteer if I want his help. I have been TOLD "stay on the boat, we're operating the lock"

 

The problem is that even with training that says "ask", if most people say "yes" they eventually start to assume that as the answer.

In the large majority of cases my experience of lockeepers volunteer or paid is a good one and I have often been asked if I want help or not also have been asked if I minded if they helped someone else as we knew what we were doing.

 

The issue with forums like this it concentrates on bad news stories and they can to the observer seem like they are the norm when there are many more times when the assistance has been satisfactory or at least uneventful.

 

I do think (and hope they are) CRT need to take notice of reported incidents and look to their training and supervision processes to make sure the volunteers are on an improvement curve. It is certainly what is done on Heritage Railways and in my own experience as a volunteer signalman. All incidents (from around the country not just our own railway) are looked at to see if we need to do something different and over time our procedures and rules are updated and the 2 yearly retests for signalling rules are changed too.

Who is legally liable for the action (or inaction) of a volunteer lock keeper? Is it CRT, which has recruited and trained the volunteer? Or the individual volunteer? Or even the boat owner/steerer? Sooner or later an insurance company, or worse the prosecuting authorities, is going to be asking that question.

 

My guess is that, although volunteers and unpaid, CRT has the same legal responsibility for their actions as it does for paid staff, and hence the same responsibility for training them to do the job, and for addressing any issues of competence and safety and disciplinary matters which may arise. Hence CRT should take very seriously any reports of incidents such as this one. But does anybody know if they do?

Liability is not really altered depending on who is being paid or not. There will be a hierarchy of individual and corporate responsibility in either case.

 

An example of individual and corporate responsibility could be a train crash. If the cause is due to an over tired alcohol fuelled driver who disregarded safety procedures they would individually responsible. However, if the crash was caused say by badly maintained track work or signal equipment then it would be a clear corporate responsibility.

Edited August 26, 2015 by churchward

[David Mack]

Here is the form to report an accident or near miss.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/1180.pdf

 

 

 

Yes, but I'm on a boat without a printer, and no access to any software that allows me to edit a PDF document..........

 

If they would only provide documents that people might be able to edit end email to them, but they don't seem to think these things through......

 

Here you are. Adobe Acrobat has a handy feature to save a pdf as a Word file (in Word 907-2003 format for those who may only have an older version of Word):

1180.doc

[KenK]

Who is legally liable for the action (or inaction) of a volunteer lock keeper? Is it CRT, which has recruited and trained the volunteer? Or the individual volunteer? Or even the boat owner/steerer? Sooner or later an insurance company, or worse the prosecuting authorities, is going to be asking that question.

 

My guess is that, although volunteers and unpaid, CRT has the same legal responsibility for their actions as it does for paid staff, and hence the same responsibility for training them to do the job, and for addressing any issues of competence and safety and disciplinary matters which may arise. Hence CRT should take very seriously any reports of incidents such as this one. But does anybody know if they do?

I can't speak for C&RT but the K&A Trust volunteers are covered under the Trust's insurance. Whomever is in charge of the volunteer group is responsible for the actions of the group and must be a K&A Trust member. Obviously everyone taking part should and would have had training. The trip boats for example work under MCA rules and are subject to the same regulations.

 

Ken

[c c]

Sorry but the captain is in charge! I'm sure there are many well meaning volunteers but it's your boat.

 

As others have said please report it so the guy can get retrained. Next time it could get serious, people start falling in the cut when panic strikes...

That particular volunteer, who is possibly the most experienced of all the volunteer lock-keepers, was on duty at that particular lock with a certain CRT ChX Mr Parry on 15th August - when you were also there.

[Mike Tee]

That particular volunteer, who is possibly the most experienced of all the volunteer lock-keepers, was on duty at that particular lock with a certain CRT ChX Mr Parry on 15th August - when you were also there.

If this 'most experienced' volocky is the one involved in Alan F's incident, and to be scrupulously fair we have only heard one side of it - well if he acted as described then he has become dangerously complacent and needs a rethink on his actions around locks.

[mango]

I've had a bollocking for having no fender from a BW employee at Audlem .

 

All the things Pete says are an issue with big boats and that's why the fender gets parked on the deck or just not bothered with.

 

Funnily enough I was made to hang a fender on Halsall while on my mooring because somebody bust their window on the stem post.

 

Northwich stem posts are good at sticking in the gate going down hill.

 

From the BW General Canal Bye-laws:

 

Every vessel navigated on any canal shall have ready for immediate use proper fenders of suitable material and in good

condition and the master of such vessel shall use such fenders whenever there is a risk of the vessel striking against any other vessel or against any wall, lockgate, bridge or other thing.

[c c]

to be scrupulously fair we have only heard one side of it -

Since when did this forum want to give the accused a hearing before passing judgement and rushing in to hurl the first ton of stone?

One reason I have always liked this forum is the knowledge that I am in company with so many other beings who are as perfect in every way as am I.

[pete harrison]

 

 

From the BW General Canal Bye-laws:

 

Every vessel navigated on any canal shall have ready for immediate use proper fenders of suitable material and in good

condition and the master of such vessel shall use such fenders whenever there is a risk of the vessel striking against any other vessel or against any wall, lockgate, bridge or other thing.

 

Yes I am aware of the 'rules' which is why I stated that a fender is available but kept on the fore deck - "ready for immediate use".

 

edit - interestingly the above Bye-Law states a fender is specifically required on any canal. Does this then mean a fender is not required on a river ? (its O.K., I know the answer).

Edited August 26, 2015 by pete harrison

[FadeToScarlet]

 

 

 

 

 

From the BW General Canal Bye-laws:

 

Every vessel navigated on any canal shall have ready for immediate use proper fenders of suitable material and in good

 

 

condition and the master of such vessel shall use such fenders whenever there is a risk of the vessel striking against any other vessel or against any wall, lockgate, bridge or other thing.

So you'll have Minworth and Curdworth locks lengthened, so I can fit my boat in them with a fender on? Got to lift all the front and back fenders, or the gates won't close or open.

[Mike Tee]

Since when did this forum want to give the accused a hearing before passing judgement and rushing in to hurl the first ton of stone?

One reason I have always liked this forum is the knowledge that I am in company with so many other beings who are as perfect in every way as am I.

I assume from your posts that you know the volocky concerned.

Perhaps you could ask him for his side, and whether or not he has anything to say to the Fincher family. Doesn't need to be made public.

[mango]

 

Yes, but I'm on a boat without a printer, and no access to any software that allows me to edit a PDF document..........

 

If they would only provide documents that people might be able to edit end email to them, but they don't seem to think these things through......

CRT don't know what software you are using, but most computers will oped a PDF file these days. Just copy and paste the file into an email.

 

If you paste it into a word processor document, make sure you save the file in PDF format so that CRT can open your file.

[bassplayer]

That particular volunteer, who is possibly the most experienced of all the volunteer lock-keepers, was on duty at that particular lock with a certain CRT ChX Mr Parry on 15th August - when you were also there.

I don't really remember the guy but it would have been interesting if Parry was there if something like that happened.

 

What's your angle on it? I can't see another option other than some kind of retraining or at least a chat from someone. Having said that, he was probably shocked enough to be a bit more careful next time.

 

Have there been other reports with that lock? Maybe it needs reporting to CRT to have some improvements made.

[bassplayer]

Since when did this forum want to give the accused a hearing before passing judgement and rushing in to hurl the first ton of stone?

One reason I have always liked this forum is the knowledge that I am in company with so many other beings who are as perfect in every way as am I.

Point taken..

[cariad]

We were in the adjoining lock while this happened and noticed the dog was quite distressed, but didn't realise what had happened.

The lockie that assisted us seemed to know what he was doing and we were happy to accept his help.