Down the Tidal Trent ~~~ Why not do it the easier way ?

[Tony Dunkley]

An article in WW from a few years ago stuck in my mind and was resurrected by this thread.

 

It was an account of the former editor Richard Fairhurst's attempt to navigate the Trent down to Keadby which resulted in a nerve jangling moment when it appeared they had arrived at the lock too late to clear the cill. In fact they were well over an hour adrift of their estimated passage time. He put this down to a combination of a "calm river and a small engine" but it's not the first time I've heard this story. Does make you wonder if they would have fared better using Tony's suggested strategy, though retrospectively RF concluded they should have done the trip in three stages (from Cromwell).

 

It's for certain that this fellow didn't set off from Cromwell when he should have, and it's equally certain he should have timed the journey to meet the flood no sooner than somewhere between Torksey and Gainsborough.

Presumably, when speaking later of a ''calm'' river, what he meant was that the ebb wasn't running out very fast and so didn't help them along very much. If this was the case, then it can only mean that the journey was made at a time of very small Neap tides. This being so, if he had timed the journey to meet the flood around Littleborough or Knaith, then the incoming tide would have also been relatively sluggish.

In the event of any boat being so slow that it can't make any headway at all against an incoming tide, even by making as much use as possible of all the slacks near the nesses and the slacker water to the sides on the straight racks, there is always the option to get out of the deep channel, where the flow will be swiftest, and anchor for about an hour over the period when the flood is running up at it's greatest rate.

The idea that the 43 miles from Cromwell to Keadby may need breaking up into three is utterly ridiculous, and it has it roots in this flawed doctrine that has accompanied the increased use of the river by pleasure craft, that departure from Cromwell should be timed to coincide with the higher water levels in the upper reaches.

Just so that it's clear to everyone, leaving Cromwell, or Torksey, and meeting the flood well downriver isn't something I've thought up, it was regularly done by commercial vessels, light or loaded, occasionally planned for the sole purpose of getting out of the Trent on one tide, but often as not, because it simply happened that way.

In practice, barges would generally get underway downriver as soon as they had finished loading / unloading, and tide times wouldn't enter into the reckoning at all. If it did happen to work out that leaving Cromwell coincided with LW, or flood, at Hull, then the flood in the Trent wasn't met until well below Gainsborough, and it was possible for loaded barges to make Hull on one tide, without running out of water and depth around Whitton, in the Humber.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[Wanderer Vagabond]

Last week's big tides have washed a load of rubbish off the river banks which is currently milling around in Torksey Lock cut.

 

 

Might not look too bad in the picture but there are some big lumps of tree in there. This mess stretches at least half way along the cut.

When we came through there on Thursday it didn't stretch halfway along the cut, it was all piled up against the lock gate!!! (Lockie said that a westerly had been blowing for about 3 days and had pushed it there). With a solid narrow-boat to hit it with we managed to push the trees (yes there were proper trees in amongst that) out of the way, although the second narrow boat following me became jammed for a bit on the approach wall. I don't know what you'd do with this sort of stuff with a 'yoghurt pot' though.

[TheBiscuits]

I don't know what you'd do with this sort of stuff with a 'yoghurt pot' though.

"Damn the torpedoes; Full speed ahead!"

 

But it is a Nauticus!

Edited September 6, 2015 by TheBiscuits

[Tony Dunkley]

When we came through there on Thursday it didn't stretch halfway along the cut, it was all piled up against the lock gate!!! (Lockie said that a westerly had been blowing for about 3 days and had pushed it there). With a solid narrow-boat to hit it with we managed to push the trees (yes there were proper trees in amongst that) out of the way, although the second narrow boat following me became jammed for a bit on the approach wall. I don't know what you'd do with this sort of stuff with a 'yoghurt pot' though.

 

The floating rubbish and wood should have been flushed out of the lock tail before any boat started in. Either the boats didn't wait long enough for that to be done, or the lock keeper didn't do what he should have done.

There's nothing new about Torksey Cut being full of floating rubbish and timber at this time of year. The stuff that accumulates along the banks around the HW levels during the Summer gets floated off by bigger than normal tides, caught in the slack at the cut end, and then the direction the prevailing wind blows from pushes it into the cut. A day or so of a good breeze with some East in it will see all of it gone.

It was a potential problem in the days of commercial traffic because of chunks of wood getting into the small gap between the lock walls and the barge's sides and causing them to get jammed. Nowadays with much narrower beam boats as the normal traffic, it's just a minor inconvenience which will get removed and taken away by the same things that put it there, . . . wind and tide.

[Naughty Cal]

When we came through there on Thursday it didn't stretch halfway along the cut, it was all piled up against the lock gate!!! (Lockie said that a westerly had been blowing for about 3 days and had pushed it there). With a solid narrow-boat to hit it with we managed to push the trees (yes there were proper trees in amongst that) out of the way, although the second narrow boat following me became jammed for a bit on the approach wall. I don't know what you'd do with this sort of stuff with a 'yoghurt pot' though.

We came through it on Tuesday on our way back to Burton Waters.

 

We took a run up at it then knocked it into neutral and drifted through it into the lock.

 

Some of the boats that came through on Saturday afternoon were struggling a bit as there was a fair bit more debris.

[Neil2]

 

It's for certain that this fellow didn't set off from Cromwell when he should have, and it's equally certain he should have timed the journey to meet the flood no sooner than somewhere between Torksey and Gainsborough.

Presumably, when speaking later of a ''calm'' river, what he meant was that the ebb wasn't running out very fast and so didn't help them along very much. If this was the case, then it can only mean that the journey was made at a time of very small Neap tides. This being so, if he had timed the journey to meet the flood around Littleborough or Knaith, then the incoming tide would have also been relatively sluggish.

In the event of any boat being so slow that it can't make any headway at all against an incoming tide, even by making as much use as possible of all the slacks near the nesses and the slacker water to the sides on the straight racks, there is always the option to get out of the deep channel, where the flow will be swiftest, and anchor for about an hour over the period when the flood is running up at it's greatest rate.

The idea that the 43 miles from Cromwell to Keadby may need breaking up into three is utterly ridiculous, and it has it roots in this flawed doctrine that has accompanied the increased use of the river by pleasure craft, that departure from Cromwell should be timed to coincide with the higher water levels in the upper reaches.

Just so that it's clear to everyone, leaving Cromwell, or Torksey, and meeting the flood well downriver isn't something I've thought up, it was regularly done by commercial vessels, light or loaded, occasionally planned for the sole purpose of getting out of the Trent on one tide, but often as not, because it simply happened that way.

In practice, barges would generally get underway downriver as soon as they had finished loading / unloading, and tide times wouldn't enter into the reckoning at all. If it did happen to work out that leaving Cromwell coincided with LW, or flood, at Hull, then the flood in the Trent wasn't met until well below Gainsborough, and it was possible for loaded barges to make Hull on one tide, without running out of water and depth around Whitton, in the Humber.

 

It's worth pointing out that Richard Fairhurst was acting strictly on the advice of the lock keepers who advised leaving Keadby half an hour before high water. Also, though he concluded part of the problem was lack of power, another boat leaving at the same time only made it 20 minutes ahead of them.

 

I've never done the tidal Trent but I know folk that have and based on that I concur with what Tony says about the effect of the tide, - as you are meeting it effectively you are only pushing it for an hour or so. An old account from the Tuesday Night Club archives reveals they did Cromwell to West Stockwith in 6 hours, meeting the flood tide en route, so why can't a narrowboat get to Keadby in one shift?

 

I suspect it's less to do with speed and more the apprehensiveness of boat owners and lock keepers concerned about the ability of the typical narrowboat to go "flat stick" for extended periods. But surely owners should be able to make a judgement based on what they know about their boat and its capabilities rather than adopting a one size fits all solution.

[Naughty Cal]

 

It's worth pointing out that Richard Fairhurst was acting strictly on the advice of the lock keepers who advised leaving Keadby half an hour before high water. Also, though he concluded part of the problem was lack of power, another boat leaving at the same time only made it 20 minutes ahead of them.

 

I've never done the tidal Trent but I know folk that have and based on that I concur with what Tony says about the effect of the tide, - as you are meeting it effectively you are only pushing it for an hour or so. An old account from the Tuesday Night Club archives reveals they did Cromwell to West Stockwith in 6 hours, meeting the flood tide en route, so why can't a narrowboat get to Keadby in one shift?

 

I suspect it's less to do with speed and more the apprehensiveness of boat owners and lock keepers concerned about the ability of the typical narrowboat to go "flat stick" for extended periods. But surely owners should be able to make a judgement based on what they know about their boat and its capabilities rather than adopting a one size fits all solution.

They are. You are under no obligation to use the lockies timings. You can use your own.

[Tony Dunkley]

They are. You are under no obligation to use the lockies timings. You can use your own.

 

This is not the first time you've suggested that someone with no previous experience of the Trent could work out and use their own timings for penning and passage making. Again now, as on the previous occasions, you've left out the most important proviso that should go with the suggestion . . . that, under no circumstances should this be attempted by anyone without sufficient knowledge and experience of the river and it's tides.

 

Although it's quite unlikely that anyone would be foolish enough to take up your suggestion, it is an unhelpful and highly irresponsible piece of advice, the value and worth of which is well illustrated by a post of your own made in CWDF Topic " First river boat" on 25 August 2015, when you said : ~

 

"We have grounded the boat on Torksey Lock cill when there wasn't enough water to clear the cill and had to be flushed off"

 

You have subsequently claimed that this happened at (Torksey) HW, that it was not because you were trying to get out at the wrong time, before the tide had 'made' enough, and was due entirely to a long dry spell preceeding a very small Neap tide, with no prospect of any more depth over the sill at HW for a few days.

I did ask if you could give the date and time of this extraordinarily small tide which made less than 2' over the sill at HW, followed by several more exceptionally small tides of the same height, or less, over the next few days, but you were unable to do so.

It is a great pity that you didn't make a note of what surely must be a unique event. I'm fairly certain that never before in recorded history has the influence of the Moon been switched off for a few days and the usual 7 to 8 day cycle from Neaps to Springs been temporarily suspended in order to produce a succession of record breaking small tides, all of the same height, or less, in comparison with the preceeding ones.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[Naughty Cal]

Read the post again in context.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

 

The floating rubbish and wood should have been flushed out of the lock tail before any boat started in. Either the boats didn't wait long enough for that to be done, or the lock keeper didn't do what he should have done.

There's nothing new about Torksey Cut being full of floating rubbish and timber at this time of year. The stuff that accumulates along the banks around the HW levels during the Summer gets floated off by bigger than normal tides, caught in the slack at the cut end, and then the direction the prevailing wind blows from pushes it into the cut. A day or so of a good breeze with some East in it will see all of it gone.

It was a potential problem in the days of commercial traffic because of chunks of wood getting into the small gap between the lock walls and the barge's sides and causing them to get jammed. Nowadays with much narrower beam boats as the normal traffic, it's just a minor inconvenience which will get removed and taken away by the same things that put it there, . . . wind and tide.

Since I'd come up from West Stockwith on the tide we only locked up about 3 feet (tides just beyond springs and the day after the Aegir had passed through) so the water that came out when the lockie opened the paddles wouldn't have flushed a rubber dinghy out of the way, never mind a whole tree! Rather than flushing it out when the lockie opened the outer lock gates the rubbish began to drift into the lock such that once we were in the lock he couldn't shut the outer gates and had to lock us up by just closing the inner gates.

 

I didn't suggest that the situation was either unusual or permanent I merely questioned how a fibre glass boat would get on pushing a whole tree out of the way given how twitchy they get when in close proximity to a steel narrowboat .

[Tony Dunkley]

Since I'd come up from West Stockwith on the tide we only locked up about 3 feet (tides just beyond springs and the day after the Aegir had passed through) so the water that came out when the lockie opened the paddles wouldn't have flushed a rubber dinghy out of the way, never mind a whole tree! Rather than flushing it out when the lockie opened the outer lock gates the rubbish began to drift into the lock such that once we were in the lock he couldn't shut the outer gates and had to lock us up by just closing the inner gates.

 

I didn't suggest that the situation was either unusual or permanent I merely questioned how a fibre glass boat would get on pushing a whole tree out of the way given how twitchy they get when in close proximity to a steel narrowboat .

 

With everything up on the top end gates and the other five pairs of gates open there wouldn't have been enough water running out of the chamber to wash anything down the cut, but there would have been sufficient to clear the stuff out of the lock tail. The top end sluices should have been left up while the boats were entering the lock, to prevent the situation you describe with the bottom gates.

The lock keeper on that day may have been the new chap who's only been doing the job for 4 weeks.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[Kieron G]

I made my first trip on the Trent in June , Went from Barmby barrage via Trent falls to Keadby and then again at the end of the month made the journey in reverse. I worked out my times from the ABP tide tables for Goole and followed the channels marked on the ' Boating Association ' charts. I also found the ' Richlow ' guide for the Trent really informative.

[peterboat]

We have just come from Torksey to Keadby the lock keeper at Cromwell advised us to leave Torksey at 0530 which we did we only just made it in over the cill our friends are tied to the wall outside.

 

The lock keeper was blaming us for leaving to late I just told him we had followed Cromwells instructions as nobody bothers taking phone numbers to contact you anymore it all seems a game of chance nowdays.

 

At he end of the day it is up to us to decide the timings but this is the first time for me that I have been given bad timings so next time I will be checking myself as we really did struggle to get in, thank goodness I have had the prop repitched as I needed that power to clear the accumulated mud banks that block the entrance to Keadby lock.

 

In true Top gear fashion we are now leaving our friends behind as we make our way to Thorne

 

Peter

[Tony Dunkley]

Read the post again in context.

 

Why are you so reluctant to reveal, the time and date(s) of the tidal miracles spoken of in your Post #19 ? . . . . . an event such as this should be made known to the world, being, it would seem, Lincolnshire's equivalent of the parting of the Red Sea.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[Scholar Gypsy]

We have just come from Torksey to Keadby the lock keeper at Cromwell advised us to leave Torksey at 0530 which we did we only just made it in over the cill our friends are tied to the wall outside.

 

The lock keeper was blaming us for leaving to late I just told him we had followed Cromwells instructions as nobody bothers taking phone numbers to contact you anymore it all seems a game of chance nowdays.

 

At he end of the day it is up to us to decide the timings but this is the first time for me that I have been given bad timings so next time I will be checking myself as we really did struggle to get in, thank goodness I have had the prop repitched as I needed that power to clear the accumulated mud banks that block the entrance to Keadby lock.

 

In true Top gear fashion we are now leaving our friends behind as we make our way to Thorne

 

Peter

 

Interesting. If I have got the sums right HW Hull was at 0300 this morning, a 6m tide. So HW Torksey at 0645, and thus 0530 would be the "normal" advice.

 

But it does depend on how fast your boat goes - I am a great believer in running the engine at a nice comfortable cruising speed, not thrashing it!

[Naughty Cal]

 

Interesting. If I have got the sums right HW Hull was at 0300 this morning, a 6m tide. So HW Torksey at 0645, and thus 0530 would be the "normal" advice.

 

But it does depend on how fast your boat goes - I am a great believer in running the engine at a nice comfortable cruising speed, not thrashing it!

There would be bugger all help from the tide today. Very small tides.

[Tony Dunkley]

We have just come from Torksey to Keadby the lock keeper at Cromwell advised us to leave Torksey at 0530 which we did we only just made it in over the cill our friends are tied to the wall outside.

 

The lock keeper was blaming us for leaving to late I just told him we had followed Cromwells instructions as nobody bothers taking phone numbers to contact you anymore it all seems a game of chance nowdays.

 

At he end of the day it is up to us to decide the timings but this is the first time for me that I have been given bad timings so next time I will be checking myself as we really did struggle to get in, thank goodness I have had the prop repitched as I needed that power to clear the accumulated mud banks that block the entrance to Keadby lock.

 

 

Interesting. If I have got the sums right HW Hull was at 0300 this morning, a 6m tide. So HW Torksey at 0645, and thus 0530 would be the "normal" advice.

 

But it does depend on how fast your boat goes - I am a great believer in running the engine at a nice comfortable cruising speed, not thrashing it!

 

The predicted time in ABP's tide book for Keadby HW this morning was 0400 BST. A little earlier in relation to Hull HW than usual for the bottom of Neaps, but it does occasionally happen.

The predicted height at Hull was only 6.1m. above CD (7.3m. over the Fish Dock sill), so not much of a tide, even if it made predicted height.

Because low water Neaps at Keadby runs down to exactly the same river level as low water Springs, the period of time after Keadby HW Neaps before the river level drops too low to get into the lock is a bit shorter than after a bigger tide, due mainly to the much reduced volume of water than that which has to run back out of the river after HW Springs.

Given the poor tide predicted for this morning, setting off from Torksey after an hour and half of ebb at Keadby (HW 0400) following a tide that wouldn't have put a lot of water into the river anyway, there was never going to be much depth over the mud in Keadby lock tail by the time the boats had covered the 27 miles to get there.

A better plan would have been to wait at Torksey for the afternoon tide at Hull and get underway from there about 45 to 50 minutes before Hull HW (1538 BST) on the last of the ebb.

With no fresh coming down river and such small tides the shallow banks of marl and sand/gravel down Marton Rack would have been starting to show, presenting a far better opportunity to see exactly where the deep channel is than can be had from any map or chart. There would then have been about an hour at most of a fairly gentle flood to stem from around Knaith to just topside of Gainsborough, and then ebb the rest of the way to Keadby, arriving there no more than 3 hours after HW and probably around 1930' ish, depending on what speed the boat(s) can make.

There was also the option to leave Torksey up to three to three and a half hours before Hull HW, meet the flood further downriver and make Keadby correspondingly earlier too, up to and including arriving there at high water with the river slack and not far off canal level, but that wouldn't have provided the same chance to have a good look at where the deep water is at Marton. It also means passing Marton when the shallows will definitely still be covered and in the event of getting it wrong and grounding on them, there's longer to wait for the next tide to lift you off and you could be perched a bit precariously on the edge of the deep channel, with the water level still to drop a lot more. The best and safest time for pleasure craft to be passing Marton on the ebb is shortly before the time of HW at Hull, because if you do happen to ground then the river level will not drop significantly more, and you'll only have to wait a few minutes before you're on your way again.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[peterboat]

Cheers Tony it would have been better however we had a dinner appointment at Thorne at 6 so it wasnt an option for us. The problem was the lock keeper who was being an arse, the second boat could have made it into the lock and we could have gone up together but we wernt given that option. We have both been in that lock together before so we know we would fit, its just life I suppose and as its his toy their is nothing much other than a complaint I can do about it

 

Peter

Last week's big tides have washed a load of rubbish off the river banks which is currently milling around in Torksey Lock cut.



Might not look too bad in the picture but there are some big lumps of tree in there. This mess stretches at least half way along the cut.

We watched them cleaning this lot out it was a right mess and took all day they had closed the lock for a day earlier as it was to bad for passage. Us steel boats are ok but anything with a leg would risk damage and restricted cooling not good

 

Peter

[Tony Dunkley]

Cheers Tony it would have been better however we had a dinner appointment at Thorne at 6 so it wasnt an option for us. The problem was the lock keeper who was being an arse, the second boat could have made it into the lock and we could have gone up together but we wernt given that option. We have both been in that lock together before so we know we would fit, its just life I suppose and as its his toy their is nothing much other than a complaint I can do about it

 

Peter

 

 

On the few occasions I've had to use Keadby Lock in recent years there has been quite a variety of so-called lock keepers, one who did know what he was doing and several others who really didn't have a clue.

When Dunston's yard at Thorne was in operation they had a barge that was used for routinely moving prefabricated steel sections and other gear between there and the yard at Hessle. It was 21' beam and far too long to pen in the lock so it had to go in and out on a level. I wonder how the comedians in charge at Keadby now would react if something like that turned up these days.

I used to know the width of the chamber at Keadby, but I can't recall the exact figure just now, although I do remember once penning a Sheffield boat at about 15' 6'' with two roughly 8' 6'' beam Bantam Tugs alongside and still with a bit of width to spare, so it's got to be in the region of 24' wide.

If you do complain about yesterday's performance, and I think you should, the man to speak to directly at C&RT's Leeds office is Stuart McKenzie.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[peterboat]

Cheers Tony will give him a call

 

Peter

[Naughty Cal]

Peterboat. Can I ask what you will complain to CRT about?

 

ETA: Extract from CRT dimensions document:

"Passage from River Trent To Thorne is limited by Keadby Lock 77ft x 22ft 6ins (23.67m x 6.86m)"

Edited September 9, 2015 by Naughty Cal

[nicknorman]

Peterboat. Can I ask what you will complain to CRT about?

As I understand it, the lockie refused to allow the second boat to enter the lock due to concerns about having enough room in the lock, as a consequence the level had dropped further by the time the lock had been cycled and it was too late.

[peterboat]

We would have both fitted in the lock as I said before we have both been in the lock together so their was no problem also he was abrupt to the point of rudeness.

 

Peter

[Tony Dunkley]

 

Peterboat. Can I ask what you will complain to CRT about?

 

ETA: Extract from CRT dimensions document:

"Passage from River Trent To Thorne is limited by Keadby Lock 77ft x 22ft 6ins (23.67m x 6.86m)"

 

 

Those dimensions are just another example of BW / C&RT twaddle.

The width figure of 22' 6'' is definitely wrong, it's wider than that, and the 77' length is between the flood gates. A 'Trent size' barge will pen on the other set of gates at 81' 6'', but on a level the length is unlimited.

[Naughty Cal]

"Through passage is limited by Thorne Lock. For the Bramwith to Thorne section, dimensions

are as for the main line to Rotherham. Passage from River Trent To Thorne is limited by Keadby

Lock 77ft x 22ft 6ins (23.67m x 6.86m) although longer Craft can be admitted when the tide

makes a level..Narrowboats up to about 18.79m (61ft 8ins) can pass through Thorne Lock

diagonally"