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Lessons CRT could learn


Phoenix_V

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Our travels take us to the River Wey this week, a lovely river run by the National Trust.

Interesting to note - not in any particular order;

Their annual licence fee is about half what I pay for a river licence from CRT and similarly less than an EA licence, yet they receive no subsidy and are apparently entirely funded by licence fees and mooring revenue.

The locks all seem to be in reasonable condition apart from a few gate leaks as are the towpaths - there are a few overhanging trees that need attention but not as badly as parts of the cRT system or upper Thames.

They do their own maintenance without subcontractors and employ lengthsmen to do the more basic work and presumably keep an eye on boats, the management offices and workshops are on the waterway and not miles away on another waterway

There are taps every couple of miles.

The paddle gear is well maintained and of a design were you simply wind up or down as required, i.e. does not require a dangerous and soon to be made more dangerous so called safety catch as on CRT waterways

The structures, lock bridges, walkways etc are simple sturdy designs obviously fabricated in house and not bought in at vast cost

 

 

I have not been there lately but have no reason to believe the other independant waterways (Avon/Chelmer/Middle Level) are not similar.

 

My point is CRT have a boating buddy scheme for members of staff (who for some inexplicable reason have found themselves looking after rivers and canals when they have never been on a boat) to be taken out with boaters and find out what it is really like. Perhaps they should extend the scheme and have managers visit these independent waterways to see how it should be done.

 

 

 

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so 50% of your CRT licence fee to cover 19 miles and 16 locks.....

 

The National Trust took a very different attitude to the Stratford Canal when it was under their stewardship....

 

As for paddle gear - are you seriously suggesting CRT should replace all their paddle gear?

Edited by StephenA
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so 50% of your CRT licence fee to cover 19 miles and 16 locks.....

 

The National Trust took a very different attitude to the Stratford Canal when it was under their stewardship....

 

As for paddle gear - are you seriously suggesting CRT should replace all their paddle gear?

 

My CRT river licence covers not much more as I am only able to use it on the Lee and Stort, in any event assuming a similar boat density the income per mile for CRT is probably twice that of the Wey.

 

The National Trust did bite off more than it could chew 30 years ago on the Stratford but without them the Stratford would be dead now.

 

Just saying that Wey bought a sensible design of paddle gear in years ago and CRT didnt

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Ask yourself how many miles and locks is the National Trust licence fee covering?

 

I would agree though that the National trust (overall not just this small part) as a management body is leaner than CRT and as a Trust just like CRT looking after resources on behalf of the nation with a remit to provide access to all it has much to offer CRT in how to do it. Mind you it is not without its own issues.

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Ask yourself how many miles and locks is the National Trust licence fee covering?

 

I would agree though that the National trust (overall not just this small part) as a management body is leaner than CRT and as a Trust just like CRT looking after resources on behalf of the nation with a remit to provide access to all it has much to offer CRT in how to do it. Mind you it is not without its own issues.

My CRT river licence covers not much more as I am only able to use it on the Lee and Stort, in any event assuming a similar boat density the income per mile for CRT is probably twice that of the Wey. Plus they get a subsidy.

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Not so sure the River Wey is entirely funded by licence and mooring fees. Surely the River Wey is but one of hundreds of national historically important sites they fund from revenue from visitors to their sites, annual Trust membership etc., a revenue stream they been building for donkeys years. The advantage they have is that much of their estate has a wall round it and a gate where you charge everyone for access. Unless someone's got about 4500 miles of very good fencing that's where C&RT are disadvantaged and have to look to alternatives like 'Friends' and raising awareness via modern media like the website currently being vilified elsewhere.

 

Critical apostrophe edit .. see, I correct my own grammar too.

Edited by twbm
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Not so sure the River Wey is entirely funded by licence and mooring fees.

I have been told by several people here that the River does cover it's costs, be that as it may, the other independents are not part of any larger organization and certainly do cover their costs.

 

The NT may have existed longer than CRT but not much longer than CRT's predecessors BW BTC etc, it has run the Wey since about 1964.

The advantage they have is that much of their estate has a wall round it and a gate where you charge everyone for access. Unless someone's got about 4500 miles of very good fencing that's where C&RT are disadvantaged a

 

Access to the Wey towpath is free for walkers and cyclists, as is the Chelmer, the Avon do not own the towpath.

 

They do have a good visitor centre which charges about £4 for entry, I don't know if that makes money but if it does just another idea CRT could copy

Edited by Phoenix_V
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My CRT river licence covers not much more as I am only able to use it on the Lee and Stort, in any event assuming a similar boat density the income per mile for CRT is probably twice that of the Wey. Plus they get a subsidy.

You may not like this but your licence is the same as all the other river licences and goes into a big pot not one reserved for the Lee & Stort. It would be very inefficient to have a management and Admin structure for each isolated waterway replicating many jobs although CRT probably do that a bit.

 

Also your licence for Rivers only covers all of the CRT rivers it is just that you don't use it and have chosen a location for your boat that is more isolated. Perhaps if there were just a Lee & Stort licence it would be cheaper?

Edited by churchward
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Big difference between a charity and a business...

I have not personally noticed a big difference between CRT (Charity) and BW (business (was BW ever a business?)

Why should one be apprently 3 times as efficient as the other?

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Not so sure the River Wey is entirely funded by licence and mooring fees. Surely the River Wey is but one of hundreds of national historically important sites they fund from revenue from visitors to their sites, annual Trust membership etc., a revenue stream they been building for donkeys years. The advantage they have is that much of their estate has a wall round it and a gate where you charge everyone for access. Unless someone's got about 4500 miles of very good fencing that's where C&RT are disadvantaged and have to look to alternatives like 'Friends' and raising awareness via modern media like the website currently being vilified elsewhere.

 

Critical apostrophe edit .. see, I correct my own grammar too.

True they can charge admission (and they have a membership scheme) at many properties but they also run many farms and have many miles of coastline to look after. There is a large amount of land on the Lleyn Peninsula in North Wales for example owned by the National trust and although they can charge for car parks etc there is no admission fee to the land.

Edited by churchward
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Being on the Avon at the moment I am impressed by the Avon Navigation Trust. The locks are in good order and tidy, moorings decent and facilities pretty plentiful.

I don't think a value for money comparison is of any merit but I do also like the presence of the ANT - the information boat in Stratford Basin, signage and phone numbers on frequent information panels etc. All quite adult in style and not this goofy either childish or officious style of CART's

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so 50% of your CRT licence fee to cover 19 miles and 16 locks.....

 

 

Another way to look at it is that you could explore the entire CRT system if you wanted to for just double the cost of the Wey NT licence.

 

Also if you go up and down the same stretch of canal many times you are still using a lot of the facilities, it's just that it's the same ones.

 

Is CRT ripping us off? How many pay the Wey NT licence fee? (maybe a few hundred). How many pay for a CRT licence? (around 35,000). I don"t know how many times more CRT waters and facilies there are than the Wey but the maths could be done.

Edited by bassplayer
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Not so sure the River Wey is entirely funded by licence and mooring fees. Surely the River Wey is but one of hundreds of national historically important sites they fund from revenue from visitors to their sites, annual Trust membership etc., a revenue stream they been building for donkeys years. The advantage they have is that much of their estate has a wall round it and a gate where you charge everyone for access. Unless someone's got about 4500 miles of very good fencing that's where C&RT are disadvantaged and have to look to alternatives like 'Friends' and raising awareness via modern media like the website currently being vilified elsewhere.

 

Critical apostrophe edit .. see, I correct my own grammar too.

 

 

The National Trust doesn't receive a government grant. It can charge for access to its properties and it also runs a membership scheme. Because CRT cannot close access off to the public, CRT is at a disadvantage and can't profit in similar ways by charging all users. CRT need to continue to receive a government grant in support of its requirements to meet the demands being made upon it to include the general public.

 

For such a big demand, the £39 million is not massive. The Royal Opera House gets £24 million.

Edited by Higgs
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Maybe the Wey is a model for a future breakup and selloff of the system currently managed by CRT?

 

Not sure what their exact policy is but I don't think they give the option to have a yearly license without a mooring or storage for the boat. I know it is a relatively guarded waterway in general and a bit 'precious' so I don't really see it as a good model personally.

 

I got agro from a boater there once because I was towing a dinghy which was licensed as a visitor as was the boat towing it.

I am looking forward to the reaction if and when I take my scruffy 57ftx12ft barge up there :rolleyes:

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Being on the Avon at the moment I am impressed by the Avon Navigation Trust. The locks are in good order and tidy, moorings decent and facilities pretty plentiful.

I don't think a value for money comparison is of any merit but I do also like the presence of the ANT - the information boat in Stratford Basin, signage and phone numbers on frequent information panels etc. All quite adult in style and not this goofy either childish or officious style of CART's

 

 

Combined licence for a 50 foot boat for a year on the Avon is £266 (paid in Jan), £271 (paid in Feb), £542 (if you are on their waters and don't have a licence) and £217 if you have a CRT licence.

 

So 1/3 of the cost of a CRT Canal and River licence for a year (£775) to do just the Avon.....

Edited by StephenA
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You may not like this but your licence is the same as all the other river licences and goes into a big pot not one reserved for the Lee & Stort. It would be very inefficient to have a management and Admin structure for each isolated waterway replicating many jobs although CRT probably do that a

That was mainly in reply to this -"so 50% of your CRT licence fee to cover 19 miles and 16 locks...."

I appreciate that a heavily locked canal will always cost more to run than the average river and there needs to be a cross subsidy but it still appears that despite having a stand alone admin and keeping lengthsmen and doing maintenance in house the Wey and other independants are more efficient.

Perhaps a better comparison of apples with apples would be with the EA waterways who are busy selling off their lock houses wheras they are all retained here.

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I am not sure what the fencing off comments are about - isn't the Wey towpath a public right of way?

And boats have to be licensed as they do on CRT waters. I know old NT houses are fenced but not the River Wey ??

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Combined licence for a 50 foot boat for a year on the Avon is £266 (paid in Jan), £271 (paid in Feb), £542 (if you are on their waters and don't have a licence) and £217 if you have a CRT licence.

 

So 1/3 of the cost of a CRT Canal and River licence for a year (£775) to do just the Avon.....

Pretty good value really then compared to a licence just to do the Lee and Stort

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I have not been there lately but have no reason to believe the other independant waterways (Avon/Chelmer/Middle Level) are not similar.

 

 

 

Well, you'd be wrong about the Middle Level. They don't charge a license fee at all (because they can't legally do so). There are no water taps provided. Maintenance (lock repairs etc) tend to be done be contractors, and it's normal for stoppages to take months. The paddle gear is awful.

Mooring facilities are sparse.

 

Is the Wey license more or less expensive per km of waterway than the Cam Conservators? Either way it looks pretty expensive given the length of usable water it gives you access to.

 

MP.

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That was mainly in reply to this -"so 50% of your CRT licence fee to cover 19 miles and 16 locks...."

I appreciate that a heavily locked canal will always cost more to run than the average river and there needs to be a cross subsidy but it still appears that despite having a stand alone admin and keeping lengthsmen and doing maintenance in house the Wey and other independants are more efficient.

Perhaps a better comparison of apples with apples would be with the EA waterways who are busy selling off their lock houses wheras they are all retained here.

 

 

You'd stated that it was half of what you paid just to cruise the Lee and Stort ( 48 miles and 33 locks ). A River Wey licence covers just those 19 miles where as the CRT licences cover a lot more. Is there any proof that the Wey is more efficient when it comes to maintenance ?

 

 

Pretty good value really then compared to a licence just to do the Lee and Stort

 

But as has been pointed out the River Licence doesn't just cover the River Stort - it is part of a bigger licence. If you split the costs of keeping the L&S running only across the boats registered as moored on it I suspect it might be a lot more.

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I cant find anything for the Wey on a quick search but the Chelmer's operating costs are out there at about £280000 for 14 miles so £20,000 per mile, On the CRT website it says that they spend £140,000,000 looking after 2000 miles so £70,000 per mile.

 

Its not just the apparent increased monetary efficency though, as said in my original post there are other things they seem to do better.

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Combined licence for a 50 foot boat for a year on the Avon is £266 (paid in Jan), £271 (paid in Feb), £542 (if you are on their waters and don't have a licence) and £217 if you have a CRT licence.

 

So 1/3 of the cost of a CRT Canal and River licence for a year (£775) to do just the Avon.....

As I did say, I wasn't making cost or value comparisons. Like building one car rather than thousands, the economics are quite different.

I just think CART could learn lessons in presentation.

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