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I am beginning to be concerned


DeanS

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Are they?

 

We often visit churches when we are out on the boat as we like to see the architecture. Can't remember the last one we visited that was locked!

 

I can't remember the last one we visited that was open!

Apart from Macclesfield (town centre) and that was a Saturday morning with various activities going on inside - one being a class for Polish immigrants to learn English - so that doesn't really count.

This Summer: Slaithwaite - locked. Newbold-on-Avon - locked. Huddersfield - locked. Upperthong (Holmfirth) - locked. Congleton - locked. Brighouse - locked. Elland - locked.

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CaRT were very specific that they had not requested a transcript.

 

In that instance at least, they were probably telling the truth. At times they DO pay for transcripts, but that will be in ongoing cases where they need to be certain of exactly what was said by whom – whether to trip an opponent up with it come the next round, or to check whether their own witnesses made any dangerous disclosures. There needs to be a reason for them to cough up the necessary.

 

They spent around a thousand pounds following my first major case over land ownership, in getting transcripts of all the cross-examinations. I have never worked out why, because that case ended there – and I only discovered that, because I had applied for a different portion of the same hearing [for reasons I now forget], only to be told by the court that the recordings were elsewhere, being transcribed. I successfully asked for a copy much later, and they are invaluable to me for certain reasons.

 

In the Wingfield case I daresay there was nothing of interest for them, nor anything of any potential future use, especially given their settlement. It is perfectly understandable that they would prefer to just forget the whole thing.

 

Currently they are clamouring for a copy of the transcript Leigh paid for, of his last court appearance over costs on discontinuing his injunction in the County Court, in favour of his main claim in the High Court. Why they are so anxious for it at this stage I don't know; they will get a copy soon enough if his appeal is granted permission.

Apparently another case was withdrawn/lost by CRT only yesterday? Or so I read

 

Read where?

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I can't remember the last one we visited that was open!

 

 

Nor can I. I regularly stop to look at churches and I always try the door.

 

Actually on reflection I can remember the last one I found unlocked, it was the church in Braunston, about two years ago!

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Some bad news here for Dean, it looks as if they're still out to get him.

This latest Boaters Update appeared in my E-mail this afternoon.

 

 

Boaters' Update 14 August 2015

Hi Anthony,

So, here we are, slap bang in the middle of nowhere in the Pennines and I find myself looking at some ghastly purple boat that somebody has dumped here and spoiled the view. That’s not to say it’s stopping any number of other boats mooring here, but we are simply not going to tolerate this kind of harmless and reasonable behaviour.

Earlier this week I was on the banks of the Shroppie and was told by more than one boater that an ever increasing number of the boating fraternity are sick to death of us, so that's another success for us in this, our best year so far. Judging by this edition’s contents list, below, it seems that, here at the Trust, we are now managing at least one more unscheduled stoppage on most days

If you wish you can follow this link to a Suggestions Box about which waterway we should close next to cause the maximum possible inconvenience to those still out on holiday.

I hope you enjoy the edition and, as always, please come and tell us about anybody you see enjoying using their boats so that we can put a stop to it, then come and say ‘hi’ on our Faceache Boating page.

Have a great weekend on your home mooring in the Marina.
Damien Hemp
Boating Curtailment Manager

Edited by Tony Dunkley
  • Greenie 4
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Some bad news here for Dean, it looks as if they're still out to get him.

This latest Boaters Update appeared in my E-mail this afternoon.

 

 

Boaters' Update 14 August 2015

Hi Anthony,

So, here we are, slap bang in the middle of nowhere in the Pennines and I find myself looking at some ghastly purple boat that somebody has dumped here and spoiled the view. That’s not to say it’s stopping any number of other boats mooring here, but we are simply not going to tolerate this kind of harmless and reasonable behaviour.

 

Earlier this week I was on the banks of the Shroppie and was told by more than one boater that an ever increasing number of the boating fraternity are sick to death of us, so that's another success for us in this, our best year so far. Judging by this edition’s contents list, below, it seems that, here at the Trust, we are now managing at least one more unscheduled stoppage on most days

 

If you wish you can follow this link to a Suggestions Box about which waterway we should close next to cause the maximum possible inconvenience to those still out on holiday.

 

I hope you enjoy the edition and, as always, please come and tell us about anybody you see enjoying using their boats so that we can put a stop to it, then come and say ‘hi’ on our Faceache Boating page.

 

Have a great weekend on your home mooring in the Marina.

Damien Hemp

Boating Curtailment Manager

 

Lol lol. Greenie

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It matters if someone never moves. But if you are trying to split hairs then carry on with your game. Certainly a few days does no harm

 

Big difference between 3 days and forever :) I agree that a few days in a not busy location does no harm... but does 7 days, or 14 days, or a month, or a year? I'd guess there would be a different point at which each of us would say it was unreasonable, (staying forever probably does no "harm", but would be unreasonable), and there has to be some kind of cut off point. CRT are obviously entitled to take some kind of action once a boater has overstayed, so you are at their mercy at 15 days.

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It matters if someone never moves. But if you are trying to split hairs then carry on with your game. Certainly a few days does no harm

Splitting hairs?

 

I was simply asking where Emerald Fox would set the limit at which enforcement mattered.

 

I agree that one boat staying 17 consecutive days on one occasion on a quiet stretch of canal causes no harm at all.

 

On the other hand, unless you allow boats to be moored indefinitely, some arbitrary limit needs to be set. And once a limit is set, to be fair, it needs to be applied to all boats on all occasions unless there are good reasons why the boat cannot be moved.

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Big difference between 3 days and forever :) I agree that a few days in a not busy location does no harm... but does 7 days, or 14 days, or a month, or a year? I'd guess there would be a different point at which each of us would say it was unreasonable, (staying forever probably does no "harm", but would be unreasonable), and there has to be some kind of cut off point. CRT are obviously entitled to take some kind of action once a boater has overstayed, so you are at their mercy at 15 days.

I guess it depends on how much respect they have for their customers.

Splitting hairs?

 

I was simply asking where Emerald Fox would set the limit at which enforcement mattered.

 

I agree that one boat staying 17 consecutive days on one occasion on a quiet stretch of canal causes no harm at all.

 

On the other hand, unless you allow boats to be moored indefinitely, some arbitrary limit needs to be set. And once a limit is set, to be fair, it needs to be applied to all boats on all occasions unless there are good reasons why the boat cannot be moved.

But Dean has a good reason he will not be in the country. I never move in heavy rain for example. I contacted the Avon Trust yesterday as I did not want to move in the rain they just said we don't expect anyone to move in heavy rain so no need to contact us and then finished with as the river is very quite at present don't worry to much about mooring time limits

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The boaters who don't overstay are also CRT's customers, of course.

 

CRT may feel they are respecting them and their compliance with their licence conditions by logging the overstayers.

We are all customers and those that have a reason to overstay in the middle of nowhere deserve just as much respect. I have always supported enforcement against boaters that do not move, that is a lot different to boaters that might overstay once in a while on non visitor moorings

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and the answer from CRT..

 

 

 

Hi Dean

 

We accept your explanation of the situation and I would like to reiterate that our reminders are sent as a customer service message, they are not an enforcement action.

I can confirm that I have flagged this reminder as withdrawn and I apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused you.

Also we are happy to approve the 3 day overstay that you have requested.

Kind regards

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and the answer from CRT..

 

 

 

Hi Dean

 

 

We accept your explanation of the situation and I would like to reiterate that our reminders are sent as a customer service message, they are not an enforcement action.

I can confirm that I have flagged this reminder as withdrawn and I apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused you.

Also we are happy to approve the 3 day overstay that you have requested.

Kind regards

Oh no cart are being complicit in disrespecting those other customers.

 

Anyway Dean you can now rest in peace and enjoy your trip

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We are all customers and those that have a reason to overstay in the middle of nowhere deserve just as much respect. I have always supported enforcement against boaters that do not move, that is a lot different to boaters that might overstay once in a while on non visitor moorings

I agree that the occasional overstay or an agreed overstay shouldn't be cause for enforcement action.

 

However I'm still not clear where you would draw the line. Other than taking enforcement action against boats which never move, doesn't overstaying for months on end or persistently overstaying at the same location without a good reason also warrant warnings and ultimately the non-renewal of the boat's licence?

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I agree that the occasional overstay or an agreed overstay shouldn't be cause for enforcement action.

 

However I'm still not clear where you would draw the line. Other than taking enforcement action against boats which never move, doesn't overstaying for months on end or persistently overstaying at the same location without a good reason also warrant warnings and ultimately the non-renewal of the boat's licence?

I will leave you to your enforcement problems. When you have sorted thar out can you help me the "the meaning of life" Edited by cotswoldsman
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and the answer from CRT..

 

 

 

Hi Dean

 

We accept your explanation of the situation and I would like to reiterate that our reminders are sent as a customer service message, they are not an enforcement action.

 

I can confirm that I have flagged this reminder as withdrawn and I apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused you.

Also we are happy to approve the 3 day overstay that you have requested.

 

Kind regards

So all in all perfectly reasonable behaviour by CRT

  • Greenie 1
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Just out of interest, how many days would matter, or should boats be able to be moored up indefinitely?

 

Case by case basis. If a boat is moored where it's disturbing no-one else, I don't see that a month or 2 months is bad. 2 weeks (as per usual) is also quite long for 'continuous cruisers' - that gives time to look at the local area, make a couple of bicycle trips and a train trip - or even time to jump on a plane and go to a Bluegrass Festival in West Virginia.

If there are complaints, then the local lockie - and I do think it would be a good thing to have these back and living in their lock keepers' houses - would pop around and have a go at sorting it out amicably.

 

(It's a scandal that so many lock keepers' cottages are abandoned/in ruins - and there's a housing shortage???!!!)

 

Let's say 2 months maximum, because after that it's beginning to feel like loitering. If the boater is 'genuinely cruising' and exploring England, then they're bringing money into that area. 2 months flies by.

 

I don't agree with piles of junk all over the towpath beside the boat - some items, yes, if neat and out of the way. (Discuss - how many items should there be? Is two-too-few and nine-just-fine but eleven-like-heaven?!)

 

I agree with a short-sharp-shock legal approach from the/us boaters if it really is necessary - a big corporation waving its (or Cousin It's!) power-stick around is not what we want. I should also expect transparency in all records of such an organisation that has such a weighty responsibility - in charge of the British Canals on behalf the British Nation no less.

 

As I've said earlier, Dean doesn't have a case to even consider - off he ventures away from his marina to have a look at his local canal. A canal that more people should be visiting, and of which more people should be demanding CRT fix those water taps and dredge the canal to a decent standard! He has committed no crime or act of indecency - if you want to stumble across things like that look no further than your local County Councillors' junkets and expenses and taxi fares.

 

'Deangate' has had the merit of keeping many entertained here - 31 pages so far! I didn't know who Tony Dunkley was, although have come across his name muttered darkly here & there - yet to me he seems like a clear-headed straightforward, intelligent and sensible chap.

 

Also, as I've pointed out a few times - this logging is just plain daft when there are so many boats glaring at you with their well-out-of-date licences (or none displayed) (and stop bickering about this - you show the tax disc on your car, don't you?). Many of these boats are downright scruffy, neglected, half-sunk, abandoned or burnt-out hulks - are these not taking up room? I suppose they add to the charm of the British waterways, though, I wouldn't like everything to be forced to be spotless and regimented.

 

Anyway, as Mr Dawg House often says, I "do talk a lot of nonsense"!

 

(Saturday morning - edited because to-few had too-few oos in it!)

Edited by Emerald Fox
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So all in all perfectly reasonable behaviour by CRT

Of course, what did you expect? After reading through this thread, I would imagine they filled a meeting room for two days working on damage limitation. cool.png

 

Naturally, next time is just around the corner.

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I will leave you to your enforcement problems. When you have sorted thar out can you help me the "the meaning of life"

 

I had a quick look:

 

On the first day, God created the dog and said: "Sit all day by the door of your house and bark at anyone who comes in or walks past. For this, I will give you a life span of 20 years."

 

The dog said: "That's a long time to be barking. How about only 10 years and I'll give you back the other 10?'

 

So God agreed.

 

On the second day, God created the monkey and said: "Entertain people, do tricks, and make them laugh. For this, I'll give you a 20-year life span."

 

The monkey said: "Monkey tricks for 20 years? That's a pretty long time to perform. How about I give you back 10 like the Dog did?"

 

And God agreed.

 

On the third day, God created the cow and said:

 

"You must go into the field with the farmer all day long and suffer under the sun, have calves and give milk to support the farmer's family. For this, I will give you a life span of 60 years."

 

The cow said: "That's kind of a tough life you want me to live for 60 years. How about 20 and I'll give back the other 40?"

 

And God agreed again.

 

On the fourth day, God created man and said: "Eat, sleep, play, marry and enjoy your life. For this, I'll give you 20 years."

 

But man said: "Only 20 years? Could you possibly give me my 20, the 40 the cow gave back, the 10 the monkey gave back, and the 10 the dog gave back -- that makes 80, OK?"

 

"OK," God said. "As long as you're sure."

 

So that is why for our first 20 years we eat, sleep, play and enjoy ourselves. For the next 40 years we slave in the sun to support our family. For the next 10 years we do monkey tricks to entertain the grandchildren. And for the last 10 years we sit on the front porch and bark at everyone.

 

And that, my friends, is the meaning of life. Now you know.

  • Greenie 2
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Oh no cart are being complicit in disrespecting those other customers.

 

Anyway Dean you can now rest in peace and enjoy your trip

With regard to 'respect', a year ago BDRC Continental carried out a survey on behalf of CaRT.

 

One of the findings of that survey was that only one in four boaters felt that the Trust respected them.

 

Not really surprising ...

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So all in all perfectly reasonable behaviour by CRT

 

To be more precise, an adaptation to reasonable behaviour.

The tone and wording of C&RT's latest communication is very different from that of the letter in the OP. They are known to monitor and read this Forum, so maybe the reaction to the threatening content of the first letter has had an effect.

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With regard to 'respect', a year ago BDRC Continental carried out a survey on behalf of CaRT.

 

One of the findings of that survey was that only one in four boaters felt that the Trust respected them.

 

Not really surprising ...

25% would be about the same as the people I meet. I am on the Avon at present and have only spoken to one boater today due to weather and the first thing the lady said to me "it has been so nice to be off CRT waters and with a Trust that enjoy having boaters using their waters" Edited by cotswoldsman
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To be more precise, an adaptation to reasonable behaviour.

The tone and wording of C&RT's latest communication is very different from that of the letter in the OP. They are known to monitor and read this Forum, so maybe the reaction to the threatening content of the first letter has had an effect.

I did not read anything threatening in the letter in the OP. It may be that some think CRT should not be asking a HMer what they were as it exceeds what the law requires. But I think the letter was simply seeking clarification or explaination in relation to their incorrect assumption.

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As I'm preparing to go to France, my mind isn't really on the CRT issues, however, one observation is as follows:

 

In the "letter", I am told to contact my enforcement officer.

In the latest email, I am told the letter has nothing to do with enforcement.

 

cross messages.

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