I am beginning to be concerned

[chubby]

I imagine that the best reason to keep a record , regardless of whether one is obliged to or not is so that if / when CRT send you the letter stating your movements are insufficient you have to hand 100% accurate records of where you were and when .

They are highly likely to be far more accurate than thier records . You can then informCRT of thier inaccuracies , again , politely & without emotion etc .

 

Again , at the same time you can quote the relevant laws etc & you re awareness of your obligations that you have met & demonstrated that you have met .

 

All of this is of course total crap . Who wants to be doing this ? No one . But CRT appear to be too inept to organise themselves to go about things properly & consistently . Therefore its perhaps prudent to keep a record , it needn t be too onerous , so that the moment they make an error you can respond - accurately .

 

Grim really isn t it

[cotswoldsman]

I imagine that the best reason to keep a record , regardless of whether one is obliged to or not is so that if / when CRT send you the letter stating your movements are insufficient you have to hand 100% accurate records of where you were and when .

They are highly likely to be far more accurate than thier records . You can then informCRT of thier inaccuracies , again , politely & without emotion etc .

 

Again , at the same time you can quote the relevant laws etc & you re awareness of your obligations that you have met & demonstrated that you have met .

 

All of this is of course total crap . Who wants to be doing this ? No one . But CRT appear to be too inept to organise themselves to go about things properly & consistently . Therefore its perhaps prudent to keep a record , it needn t be too onerous , so that the moment they make an error you can respond - accurately .

 

Grim really isn t it

Rule by fear think I will move to North Korea for a quite life.

Enjoy making your logs if you want me to make one up for you let me know

[DeanS]

Dean just out of interest what is the point of this thread? Why did you not just scuttle back to your mooring apologise to CRT for breaking all the rules and get on with your life.

 

the point of this thread was to let you know I got an enforcement letter ;-) Nothing more than that really. I spend a lot of time on here..and I find peoples comments interesting and helpful.

[Woodsy]

My intent in post 92 above is that if a person is on the receiving end of a nasty 'you do not appear to be moving enough' email with out having your own record of your movements it can be hard to recall exactly where and when you were in a place or moving between two different places if god forbid it ends up in a court room.

If as indicated above some don't think this is a problem fair enough.☺☺☺☺

[MtB]

I imagine that the best reason to keep a record , regardless of whether one is obliged to or not is so that if / when CRT send you the letter stating your movements are insufficient you have to hand 100% accurate records of where you were and when .

 

 

I disagree. I think the best response is to quote the regulation under which you applied for your licence, pointing out you chose the option which does not require you to move around in the first place. Offering evidence of your movements tacitly implies you accept you are obliged to move, even though you aren't.

 

Remember, Dean is a home moorer so CC rules don't apply.

[cotswoldsman]

My intent in post 92 above is that if a person is on the receiving end of a nasty 'you do not appear to be moving enough' email with out having your own record of your movements it can be hard to recall exactly where and when you were in a place or moving between two different places if god forbid it ends up in a court room.

If as indicated above some don't think this is a problem fair enough.☺☺☺☺

Read the law. Please please CRT take me to court. When I get my home mooring you better send someone to log me every day can't wait for my first email

 

 

I disagree. I think the best response is to quote the regulation under which you applied for your licence, pointing out you chose the option which does not require you to move around in the first place. Offering evidence of your movements tacitly implies you accept you are obliged to move, even though you aren't.

 

Remember, Dean is a home moorer so CC rules don't apply.

Well said.

 

(I am getting worried)

[DeanS]

Dean no disrespect we all.live through your problems on the Bridgewater, your terrible moorings, now your problems with CRT on the Rochdale. What is it you are looking for from the people on this forum?

 

What problems on the Bridgewater. That thread was to highlight a change in their enforcement regime. It wasn't about me at all. I left the Bridgewater to it's own devices and on forum members advice, moved my widebeam up the Rochdale. Now I'm sharing a letter I've received on the Rochdale. The issues in my marina aren't my issues...I'm not there. I enjoy sharing the good and the bad of boating on the forum, and reading peoples comments. Without the people on this forum, I wouldn't have come up the Pennines, so being on the forum always has great value.

[MtB]

My intent in post 92 above is that if a person is on the receiving end of a nasty 'you do not appear to be moving enough' email with out having your own record of your movements it can be hard to recall exactly where and when you were in a place or moving between two different places if god forbid it ends up in a court room.

 

 

But Woodsy, if it ends up in a court room the boater's 'defence' will be they are not obliged to move at all being a home moorer (other than short distances so as to comply with individual mooring time limits).

 

So how does having a detailed record of movements help? I suggest it just confuses things.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Mike the Boilerman

[cotswoldsman]

 

What problems on the Bridgewater. That thread was to highlight a change in their enforcement regime. It wasn't about me at all. I left the Bridgewater to it's own devices and on forum members advice, moved my widebeam up the Rochdale. Now I'm sharing a letter I've received on the Rochdale. The issues in my marina aren't my issues...I'm not there. I enjoy sharing the good and the bad of boating on the forum, and reading peoples comments. Without the people on this forum, I wouldn't have come up the Pennines, so being on the forum always has great value.

Dean you did more than just publish an email. What is all the stuff in red about then?

[system 4-50]

What a kerfuffle over nothing. You get a bog-standard routine warning letter churned out by a computer. You ring up whoever and explain what you're at. They say fine in a bored voice and ring off, and life goes on. There's more to worry about what's hiding under the bed than this.

[cotswoldsman]

What a kerfuffle over nothing. You get a bog-standard routine warning letter churned out by a computer. You ring up whoever and explain what you're at. They say fine in a bored voice and ring off, and life goes on. There's more to worry about what's hiding under the bed than this.

Ah good another who endorses harassment. I do disspare at times anyway must check those flights to North Korea

[Woodsy]

But Woodsy, if it ends up in a court room the boater's 'defence' will be they are not obliged to move at all being a home moorer (other than short distances so as to comply with individual mooring time limits).

 

So how does having a detailed record of movements help? I suggest it just confuses things.

Ok Mike & Cotswoldsman, my mistake & I apologise to all - I will bow out of posting further to this thread.

Once again apologies to all.

[MtB]

No need to apologise or bow out, just a mistake.

 

Just get that this is a 'home moorer' issue, and the rules are completely different!

[DeanS]

Dean you did more than just publish an email. What is all the stuff in red about then?

 

I've just re-read my original post.

Yes, I stand by it. I despair

[chubby]

Youre absolutlely right Cotswoldsman not to keep a log . You shouldn t have to . Crt should be competent enough to not require you to keep a record because thier record keeping is sufficient .

 

But it often isnt .

 

MtB is absolutely correct too .

 

I guess its about what brings peace of mind to individual . I expect there are those who are confident enough to tell CRT " up yours , im fully complying with the license requirements & the law " . Fair play & entirely correct .

 

Others may not feel so confident in doing that . So perhaps consider keeping a record of your movements thats accurate .& compliant so that you can , if necessary , show that CRT are incorrect .

 

Thats all i suggest really . Its a terrible situation & i fear its going to continue because CRTs ability to collate the data on which these letters are based is suspect & more & more will receive letters they ought not to .

 

Anyway , im going to have a cuppa now . Over 3 years i ve been reading the " political " threads , lurking only & this is the first time ive contributed to one , so please forgive me if my attitudes are naive in any way .

 

We all love these waterways . I expect those running them do not . We each need to find , or continue , our way of enjoying the lifestyle whether we live aboard , are leisure users , fat boat , thin boat , marina based or whatever & i feel its high time that CRT are told , when they get things wrong & thats all of our responsability .

 

cheers

[DeanS]

No need to apologise or bow out, just a mistake.

 

Just get that this is a 'home moorer' issue, and the rules are completely different!

 

actually you're all wrong, because you don't end up in court having to fight about the law, but the fact that you dont have a licence, because CRT didn't give you one.......as far as I understand it....and to prevent that happening, you need to take CRT court before they stop your licence....from what I've read on other threads...not that I aim to be the guinea pig....although some may wish it..lol

[cotswoldsman]

Youre absolutlely right Cotswoldsman not to keep a log . You shouldn t have to . Crt should be competent enough to not require you to keep a record because thier record keeping is sufficient .

 

But it often isnt .

 

MtB is absolutely correct too .

 

I guess its about what brings peace of mind to individual . I expect there are those who are confident enough to tell CRT " up yours , im fully complying with the license requirements & the law " . Fair play & entirely correct .

 

Others may not feel so confident in doing that . So perhaps consider keeping a record of your movements thats accurate .& compliant so that you can , if necessary , show that CRT are incorrect .

 

Thats all i suggest really . Its a terrible situation & i fear its going to continue because CRTs ability to collate the data on which these letters are based is suspect & more & more will receive letters they ought not to .

 

Anyway , im going to have a cuppa now . Over 3 years i ve been reading the " political " threads , lurking only & this is the first time ive contributed to one , so please forgive me if my attitudes are naive in any way .

 

We all love these waterways . I expect those running them do not . We each need to find , or continue , our way of enjoying the lifestyle whether we live aboard , are leisure users , fat boat , thin boat , marina based or whatever & i feel its high time that CRT are told , when they get things wrong & thats all of our responsability .

 

cheers

Your contributions have been fine and well worth reading

[jenlyn]

Apathy.

[abraxus]

C&RT seem to tell us what they like. There is no requirement in the act for a home moorer to move on after 14 days the way I read it.

 

Whilst that is true, and possibly a worthy case to fight, it may not be helpful to Dean in his partcular circumstance. In applying for a licence, one signs the application on the basis that one has read, understood and accepted the licence terms and conditions. One of those conditions reads:

 

"General Licence Condition 2.1 (Mooring) explains that the maximum period that boaters can moor in one location away from their home moorings is 14 days. Where notices indicate a shorter period boaters must comply with these local restrictions."

 

Any such challenge around the 14 day ruling would therefore involve challenging licence conditions that one has already read and accepted, rather than interpretation of the act.

 

However, Dean doesn't need to fight that point, as he has been moving every 14 days, and so is compliant in that regard, and so should defend his position on that basis, rather than muddying it with wider issues that don't affect him. Essentially he seems to be a victim of CRT incompetence in logging his movements, and so his simplest course would therefore appear to be to correct them of their mistake and be done with.

 

If Dean wants to fight the validity of the licence terms, then he's entirely free to do so, but it's not something he needs to do in order to address the matter at hand.

[MtB]

 

actually you're all wrong, because you don't end up in court having to fight about the law, but the fact that you dont have a licence, because CRT didn't give you one.......as far as I understand it....and to prevent that happening, you need to take CRT court before they stop your licence....from what I've read on other threads...not that I aim to be the guinea pig....although some may wish it..lol

 

 

No I'm not! You must have missed what I wrote in post 54...

[cotswoldsman]

 

actually you're all wrong, because you don't end up in court having to fight about the law, but the fact that you dont have a licence, because CRT didn't give you one.......as far as I understand it....and to prevent that happening, you need to take CRT court before they stop your licence....from what I've read on other threads...not that I aim to be the guinea pig....although some may wish it..lol

Dean not worth explaining again how it works plenty of threads on the subject maybe you need to do some research. You just continue with your posts in your own world

[MtB]

(pretty much the same as you just said.)

[DeanS]

Dean not worth explaining again how it works plenty of threads on the subject maybe you need to do some research. You just continue with your posts in your own world

 

sometimes you confuse me

One minute you bite into this info I share on the forum...and it fuels your current anger at CRT, and next minute you turn your anger at me, because I refuse to take CRT to task, while I've quite clearly said I may do, once I have log records etc. This thread is a part of my own world...it's all real life stuff..it happened just this afternoon...only a few hours ago...it's all very real...but forgive me for sharing that I received such an email..I thought it would be of interest to some...and to you.

[MtB]

I guess its about what brings peace of mind to individual . I expect there are those who are confident enough to tell CRT " up yours , im fully complying with the license requirements & the law " . Fair play & entirely correct .

 

Others may not feel so confident in doing that . So perhaps consider keeping a record of your movements thats accurate .& compliant so that you can , if necessary , show that CRT are incorrect .

 

 

 

You illustrate there are two separate levels to this.

 

1) My view that a licence must be issued if the terms of 17, 3, C, (i) are met, even if the standard T&Cs are not met. The harder line. A judicial review may be necessary to force a licence to be issued.

 

2) Acceptance of the CRT licence T&Cs, in which case the squabble is over whether or not Dean is meeting them. The softer line. In this case a record of Dean's movements will be essential in his effort to convince CRT his data is right and theirs is wrong.

 

Telling them he's going on holiday, his job is local, there are lots of locks simply won't cut it!

Edited August 11, 2015 by Mike the Boilerman

[jenlyn]

Dean, you knew you were going to take the pee this summer. You even did a thread on it. You played a game and lost. If your not prepared to continue the game, then stop playing.

 

Admittedly, CRT are taking the pee, and they will continue to do so.