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I am beginning to be concerned


DeanS

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My Thoughts

 

I suspect that someone , somewhere , in some office is duty bound to send a letter - a " standardised " letter based upon the info received from the data loggers . This info is unlikely to be complete & therefore its inaccurate .

But the letter has probably got to be sent as as a manager of some sort has said so .

It seems to me that CRT haven t got a clue what they re doing and thier management structure is loaded with people just attempting to justify thier seat on the gravy train .

I imagine meetings with someone saying " Well this month weve sent xxxx number of enforcement letters to xxxx number of boaters & so therefore we must be getting on top of things and blah blah blah " Then another manager will give an indication of how efficiently thier department is performing etc . Then they all go off from thier meetings and begin working on next weeks bullshit in order to continue the " mirage " that things are getting better & that each manager is making a difference whereas in reality its all just nonsense to keep themselves in a cushy job .

The person sending the letter has done so as its now " standard " practice as dictated from above . They receive the data & send the letter .

 

My belief is that Dean should respond to CRT in a cold , matter of fact , non emotional way . No references to broken waterpoints , no references to harassment , no " im trying to be good etc " .

 

MtB s point about the Law is the way to go . My suggestion (& its purely an idea ) would be to draw up a reply explaining & corroborating the boat movements for EVERY day off of home mooring . This makes it comprehensive . Include links to blogs & photographic evidence . Then quote your home mooring references / id numbers etc to ENFORCE the fact that uou do indeed have one . Then quote the law above that stipulates no need to " navigate bona fide etcetc "

 

Keep to the facts : where ive been . The dates - all of them , the mooring location , the law pertaining to my mooring status .

Cold , hard , fact . No emotion , no excuses , just fact - accurate facts . Likely to be more accurate than thiers .

Then send it to Parry , head of boating , head of enforcement , local enforcement officer ( if poss ) . Print it out . Begin a paper trail , a file in which your documentary evidence is far more accurate & far more well presented than thiers .

They are relying on you to brick it & scurry back to your mooring . Try not to , go cruising further , see how they respond .

They do not have any legitimate reason to condemn your boat movements & they MUST be shown why they are incorrect & shown how thier enforcement / data logging system is flawed .

You shouldn t have to do this Dean , but CRT seem unable to establish what theyre doing & how to do it . Fight fire with fire . Tell them where you ve been ,& tell them that thier complaint has no basis in law or common sense

 

Yup. If I had nothing else to do in life, I would certainly do all that. Unfortunately I'm off to EuroDisney and father in law is boat sitting for a bit. I might do as you've described if it gets any worse, but I didn't become a boater to have to deal with that rubbish....

 

eta...although I do think your analysis is excellent, and a guideline I'll probably follow if needed...so thank you.

Edited by DeanS
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Because I work in Manchester, I had to follow the railway stations (until I bought a car), so stopped at Mills Hill (Rose of Lancaster), ...Castleton...Smithy Bridge....Littleborough....Walsden...turned at Walsden...now back at Littleborough.... I lasted with water from Manchester...to Littleborough...refilled at Walsden...refilled again at Littleborough...and will have to get back to Manchester on one tank of water...via Smithy Bridge...Castleton...Mills Hill.....couldn't go past Walsden, because the trains are only once per hour from there..and double the price....so Todmorden would be a lot more...and further by car...and reports of no water on that side of the hill ;-)

There's water at Todmorden Wharf, and probably also at Baltimore Marina. Todmorden used to have more trains than Walsden, but I haven't checked the timetable lately. Fare from Tod should also be little more than from Walsden. Littleborough will be cheaper as the trip is wholly within Greater Manchester.

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Bang on the money Chubby.

 

Especially the first half. This is standard management method these days instead of giving staff the authority to make judgements based on experience and common sense.

 

And especially the second half too! CRT aren't planning to engage with Dean in a long convo about how unfair they are being, or not, their letters are telling him what is going to happen if he does this, or if he does that. Now Dean is firmly under enforcement, he needs to respond in a manner that will stand up in court. Facts are what holds sway and he needs to get recording and presenting them now. Or go back to his mooring.

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I think many more boaters will be receiving this form of letter from CRT. It seems to be automatically generated when there are sightings of the same boat at or near the same place, the dates of the sightings being 14 or more days apart.

 

The letter carefully avoids making a specific accusation that the boat has overstayed. It does not even mention the place where CRT thinks the boat may have overstayed.

 

If I recieved one, I would not simply phone the enforcement officer "for a chat". Neither would I attempt to give chapter and verse of my actual movements, as I might, unwittingly, incriminate myself by "admitting" doing something to which CRT objects or, if my version of events is not compatible with their sightings data, I could even be accused of telling lies.

 

I would respond in writing, simply stating that my movements are at all times in complete compliance with my licence T&C ( without actually saying what those movements were) and that without further clarification about the "general area" and the dates of the sightings to which their letter alludes, I cannot possibly comment.

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No Dean

 

I dont imagine you did become a boater in order to have to such stuff as i mention . But unfortunately those running CRT appear not give a monkeys about any of that . Were talking about corporate types , not concerned with your lifestyle choices .

But you are .

So , whether you want to , is becoming irrelevant because thier mismanagement of your situation is affecting your quality of life . & they don t care .

So , im suggesting you make it clear to them why you disagree with thier assessment of the situation .

Very factually demostrating where you were everyday outside your marina , with proof , reminding them you have a mooring ( incase thier records are incorrect ) , & reminding them of the legal requirements for your boat movements & then sending it to all the relevant people .

Anyway , thats how i see it . Is it crap ? Yes it is but i suspect more people will have to do it until theres some sort of legal showdown

 

When uour at Disneyland , Ask Mickey if he wears a Richard Parry watch

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Any more of this Dean and I think your response should be along the lines of "I have a home mooring and applied for my licence on the basis of with 17, 3, C (i), under which there is no obligation for me to move between general areas when out cruising."

 

That would seem to make sense. However, he should be careful about jumping out of the frying pan into the fire when mentioning that he's going on holiday to France for a week. One point of a home mooring is to have somewhere to leave the boat when not in use, and so CRT may consider that going on holiday means that the boat is effectively not being used, and so should be returned to its mooring for the duration. So personally I wouldn't mention the holday part if I were Dean.

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it's a lovely spot...very close to a big lake...that sells ice creams...I took the kids up a few times to throw stones on the water...;-)

Hollingworth Lake. Built as a reservoir for the canal, but along with other reservoirs sold to Rochdale Corporation for water supply when the canal was closed, hence some of the water supply problems the canal has. The lakeside has family pub, fish and chip shop, ice creams, souvenir shops selling kiss-me-quick hats etc. Like a small inland version of Blackpool really.

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if they are going to treat people who have a home mooring, with the same enforcement as someone who doesn't, there really is less of a reason to be forking out all that money for a mooring is there? The whole reason I have a residential mooring, is to be a good boy. Now it seems their system has marked me as a bad boy anyway. If it's their logging system (I've asked for the logs), I'll be a little mad. If it is there definition of "general area", I'll be even more mad...because if they are going to make me cruise further due to the latter, then the marina isn't needed any longer anyway.

 

 

eta - their not there

You seem to be playing some kind of victim card in order to grandstand.

 

The only proper response to such threats is to tell them to do one and that you will see them in court. Furthermore, that their letter amounts to harassment, is unlawful and will form the basis for a counter claim should they be foolish enough to take this any further.

 

You will be deafened by the silence of their retreat. This is inane box-ticking by people who can't see beyond their computers, nothing more.

 

I don't understand why you are playing games with this, it's your family's home and life. They are acting illegally and you, in my opinion, are encouraging them to do so.

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You seem to be playing some kind of victim card in order to grandstand.

 

The only proper response to such threats is to tell them to do one and that you will see them in court. Furthermore, that their letter amounts to harassment, is unlawful and will form the basis for a counter claim should they be foolish enough to take this any further.

 

You will be deafened by the silence of their retreat. This is inane box-ticking by people who can't see beyond their computers, nothing more.

 

I don't understand why you are playing games with this, it's your family's home and life. They are acting illegally and you, in my opinion, are encouraging them to do so.

Yes I agree just posting on here is pointless wish it was me who had received the letter,still time for that when I get to my mooring.

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You seem to be playing some kind of victim card in order to grandstand.

 

The only proper response to such threats is to tell them to do one and that you will see them in court. Furthermore, that their letter amounts to harassment, is unlawful and will form the basis for a counter claim should they be foolish enough to take this any further.

 

You will be deafened by the silence of their retreat. This is inane box-ticking by people who can't see beyond their computers, nothing more.

 

I don't understand why you are playing games with this, it's your family's home and life. They are acting illegally and you, in my opinion, are encouraging them to do so.

 

I have no hunger for court cases, grandstanding etc. All I've done is leave my marina, gone cruising, and on my way back...at a leisurely pace. No more. No less. I don't see it going any further. I am a victim however........I bought a boat to be able to enjoy a certain "freedom from red tape" feeling. It's becoming hard to hold on to that feeling....

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I have no hunger for court cases, grandstanding etc. All I've done is leave my marina, gone cruising, and on my way back...at a leisurely pace. No more. No less. I don't see it going any further. I am a victim however........I bought a boat to be able to enjoy a certain "freedom from red tape" feeling. It's becoming hard to hold on to that feeling....

Well then fight it and make sure you can hang on to it

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Dave Clinton is spot on Dean . As is Cotswoldman - Fight It .

 

I would go further and say i believe you are obligated to fight it . Yes, you do want to ensure your lifestyle choices are retained but i feel that theres a bigger picture now . If u return to your home mooring soon then all will be well ..... for you .... for now .

Next summer you ll face the same BS . If everybody just continues doing this then its tantamount to keeping the enforcement program going ? Why ? Because the suits at CRT can demonstrate thier tactics are working - They send the illegal letters & everyone goes back to to base .

 

CRT need to be shown that thier " ideas " are illegal . I therefore feel that those receiving these letters should be responding as suggested by myself & Dave above in doing so demonstrate that you are 100% aware of the law , the obligations that law imposes on your boating movements & documentary evidence that you have complied with it . Every email you send with this evidence needs to be backed up with paper copies to the relevant management & for your own records .

 

You often suggest " it ain t fair " Dean etc . So ... fight ! Throw shit back at them , but in a very professional , unemotive way .

 

Its time for all boaters to begin doing this , collectively , because theres a bigger picture here now . It s not about YOUR cruising pattern & YOUR lifestyle choices . Its about OUR choices & its OUR responsibility to show those in charge .

If everybody meekly just ignores the total illegality of thier practices , concerned only with thier own situation , then this sort of thing will not only continue but will increase .

 

Take up the challenge Dean . Not just for yourself but for the lifestyle itself & if more & more people do it maybe , just maybe the message will get thru

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Rather than go in all guns blazing perhaps a quick call or email in deans case might get the desired result.....or do you hanker after a fight for the sake of it?

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

I hanker to stop the hounding of boaters. Yes I guess I am different I would go all the way not for me but because I care about all boaters and that they should be able to go about what they are doing without being bullied. If Dean had broken the law I would just leave him to it.

I just wish people could see what is happening CRT are just completely obbsed with bringing in new T&C that make boating more and more difficult. Some of us have been trying to ring the warning bells for over a year now. Seems people still want to keep the blinkers on. Well I for one think there is a time to stop all this nonsense

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If not done so already DeanS (and possibly everyone else who ventures out on the system) I think you should document / log all the pertinent facts of his trip /voyage / cruise as per Chubby's points in post 73 while they are still fresh in your memory, even if at this stage you don't think you will need to present them to defend your movements. If they are required at a latter date to defend your case it may well be hard to remember all the pertinent dates and times if they are not already recorded.

Definitely a pain, but going on the general feeling of some posts above and in other threads, I suspect this is something boats with home moorings are going to have to do when they venture out off their mooring, as well as the CC fraternity.

Maybe a modification to Canalplan to be able to record date and time of actual stopping places and traversing locks or a similar offline logging program / app would make this chore somewhat less onerous?

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Dean, I suggest you follow this link and read section 17. As Mike says you should point them to the relevant parts of section 17.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1995/1/enacted/data.pdf

C&RT seem to tell us what they like. There is no requirement in the act for a home moorer to move on after 14 days the way I read it.

(3) Notwithstanding anything in any enactment but subject to subsection (7) below, the Board may refuse a relevant consent in respect of any vessel unless—

(a) the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board that the vessel complies with the standards applicable to that vessel;

(B) an insurance policy is in force in respect of the vessel and a copy of the policy, or evidence that it exists and is in force, has been produced to the Board; and

© either—

(i) the Board are satisfied that a mooring or other place where the vessel can reasonably be kept and may lawfully be left will be available for the vessel, whether on an inland waterway or elsewhere; or

(ii) the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board that the vessel to which the application relates will be used bona fide for navigation throughout the period for which the consent is valid without remaining continuously in any one place for more than 14 days or such longer period as is reasonable in the circumstances.

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If not done so already DeanS (and possibly everyone else who ventures out on the system) I think you should document / log all the pertinent facts of his trip /voyage / cruise as per Chubby's points in post 73 while they are still fresh in your memory, even if at this stage you don't think you will need to present them to defend your movements. If they are required at a latter date to defend your case it may well be hard to remember all the pertinent dates and times if they are not already recorded.

Definitely a pain, but going on the general feeling of some posts above and in other threads, I suspect this is something boats with home moorings are going to have to do when they venture out off their mooring, as well as the CC fraternity.

Maybe a modification to Canalplan to be able to record date and time of actual stopping places and traversing locks or a similar offline logging program / app would make this chore somewhat less onerous?

I completely refuse to do that. I did not come onto the canals to be some sort of log keeper. Bloody he'll what is it all coming to when we have to live in fear.

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Definitely a pain, but going on the general feeling of some posts above and in other threads, I suspect this is something boats with home moorings are going to have to do when they venture out off their mooring, as well as the CC fraternity.

 

 

I don;t get this bit. Why would boats with a home mooring need to document anything?

 

The law doesn't require home moorers to navigate, or do anything other than observe the time limit on each individual mooring they use.

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obviously all that's happened at this point is a data logger has logged me on an outward and return trip...or their "general area" is no longer what it was previously...etc....I plan on getting the answer to that......in my own time....that will lead to further steps....which I'm not too clear on at this precise moment in time....so I'm not too phased...but I will prepare a letter father in law can pass on to anyone who comes knocking on the boat.......I leave on Sunday.....for a few days...so I've no idea what step 2 in CRTs system might be at this stage...and I'm not moving the boat till I'm back...as I've only been in Littleborough 2 days now.

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You could try something like this. I know it will be shot down in flames but I'd be interested to know how it's flawed. I'm happy to live and learn.

Dear Sir,

You have placed a threatening note making demands which are not backed up in law. Furthermore, the information you have provided is incorrect, I have the evidence to show this.

Any further demands like this will be regarded as harassment and you will be invoiced for costs for the generation of any further correspondence with you at a rate of £50 per hour.

I will be lodging your note and this letter with my solicitor and may consider further action if the harassment continues.

 

Excellent letter template

 

 

No you missed my point. I would not have travelled further than I am now, but I would have stopped at more places between my marina and the end point.. Unfortunately I had to move past certain areas, as the only water points were at the very end of my realistic cruising range. (the distance between my marina and the top of the hill). In other words I would have travelled to the top of the hill much slower if the services were working. They werent so I had to go all the way to the top of the hill and then move around from one side of the hill to the other...or return all the way back to my marina...for water. A single working water point half way up the hill would have made a difference...but wouldn't have extended my distance away from my home mooring/work.

We have also extended our range over summer, stoppage on the Bridgewater stopped us going further, but Dean's posts about the Rochdale by as made me want to try it next year.
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I don;t get this bit. Why would boats with a home mooring need to document anything?

 

The law doesn't require home moorers to navigate, or do anything other than observe the time limit on each individual mooring they use.

Yes exactly. Let's all roll.over and keep logs so CRT can send out nasty emails that have no legal standing and we can then engage in long emails and be issued with 3 or 6 month licences.

obviously all that's happened at this point is a data logger has logged me on an outward and return trip...or their "general area" is no longer what it was previously...etc....I plan on getting the answer to that......in my own time....that will lead to further steps....which I'm not too clear on at this precise moment in time....so I'm not too phased...but I will prepare a letter father in law can pass on to anyone who comes knocking on the boat.......I leave on Sunday.....for a few days...so I've no idea what step 2 in CRTs system might be at this stage...and I'm not moving the boat till I'm back...as I've only been in Littleborough 2 days now.

Dean just out of interest what is the point of this thread? Why did you not just scuttle back to your mooring apologise to CRT for breaking all the rules and get on with your life.

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Christ, it all sounds horrible, I was sad when we decided to give up boasting because of circumstances but I'm beginning to think we're better out of it. I don't think belong reasonable has any value, just be awkward and give them hell. Let's not forget the waterways belong to US, sod 'em and take possession. CrT needs their bluff calling, imagine if everyone did that, they would be well up shit Creek without the proverbial paddle. It would be less chaotic without any rules.

Edited by nb Innisfree
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