which signal should I have used please?

[OldGoat]

I'm still confused.

 

Do Col Regs actually have any LEGAL standing on the canals (wide or narrow)?

 

Yes

 

 

Other than in the canals described in the bylaws (link in post 9 above by mayalld) or other waterways with their own specific regulations, yes.

It would appear that these bylaws are based on the colregs in force at the time the bylaws were written and adapted to suit the particular requirements of these particular canals - however I am more than happy to be corrected if I have got this wrong.

i.e I am more than certain the colregs apply on the Manchester ship canal & river Thames.

 

Edited to correct spellin of Mayalld's name.

 

 

Strange as it may seem Colregs do apply by virtue of the fact that the Merchant Shipping Acts apply to all inland waterways (as well as at Sea).

 

Many waterways made their own regulations before the MSAs were enacted and that accounts for why some signals listed are at variance with Colregs.

Should there ever a be a very serious accident and MIAB looked at the case, the matter of whether sound signals were used might be a material point.

 

Just to keep this thread alive, perhaps the boat aground should have flown a signal flag....

 

'D' Delta - "Keep clear of me; I am manoeuvring with difficulty." or mebe -

F Foxtrot "I am disabled; communicate with me."

M Mike "My vessel is stopped and making no way through the water."

 

 

Now, that's another topic......

[David Mack]

 

 

 

To give you the benefit of doubt, I've highlighted the bits I think you've missed from the OP.

 

In fairness, maybe I should have said we moved as far to the right hand side as possible without "completely" grounding ourselves, but still a fair distance off the bank. And there was no chance of getting closer to the bank on the other side before you suggest it.

 

We were far enough away from the centre for a single narrow boat to pass with caution, but a WB would not have made it

I often find it easiest to stop in a bridgehole to clear the prop (when nobody else is coming). Deep water and a decent bank for access to the prop with the cabin shaft - we don't have a weed hatch. We're never there for more than a few minutes, and I can't recall a single occasion when we have obstructed another boat. Edited August 9, 2015 by David Mack

[Woodsy]

Yes

 

 

 

 

 

Strange as it may seem Colregs do apply by virtue of the fact that the Merchant Shipping Acts apply to all inland waterways (as well as at Sea).

 

Many waterways made their own regulations before the MSAs were enacted and that accounts for why some signals listed are at variance with Colregs.

Should there ever a be a very serious accident and MIAB looked at the case, the matter of whether sound signals were used might be a material point.

 

Just to keep this thread alive, perhaps the boat aground should have flown a signal flag....

 

'D' Delta - "Keep clear of me; I am manoeuvring with difficulty." or mebe -

F Foxtrot "I am disabled; communicate with me."

M Mike "My vessel is stopped and making no way through the water."

 

 

Now, that's another topic......

Do you mean "Underway" and "Making way"? If so its a pity we didn't get to this post on Thursday......we are at the end of a long weekend here (Singapore 50 year anniversary) - this would be a lively discussion worthy of filling the esky with beer and settling back for the entertainment - being a bit cheeky now I suppose? Edited August 9, 2015 by Woodsy

[Heffalump]

Doesn't the very first part of colregs read (a) These rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels.

[Woodsy]

Doesn't the very first part of colregs read (a) These rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels.

Yes and.......

(b ) Nothing in these Rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads, harbours, rivers, lakes, or inland waterways connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessels. Such special rules shall conform as closely as possible to these Rules.

(c ) Nothing in these Rules shall interfere with the operation of any special rule made by the government of any State with respect to additional station or signal lights, shapes or whistle signals for ships of war and vessels proceeding under convoy, or with respect to additional station or signal lights or shapes for fishing vessels engaged in fishing as a fleet. These additional station or signal lights, shapes or whistle signals shall, so far as possible, be such that they cannot be mistaken for any light, shape, or signal authorised elsewhere under these Rules

Edited August 9, 2015 by Woodsy

[Heffalump]

Yes and.......

(b ) Nothing in these Rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads, harbours, rivers, lakes, or inland waterways connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessels. Such special rules shall conform as closely as possible to these Rules.

(c ) Nothing in these Rules shall interfere with the operation of any special rule made by the government of any State with respect to additional station or signal lights, shapes or whistle signals for ships of war and vessels proceeding under convoy, or with respect to additional station or signal lights or shapes for fishing vessels engaged in fishing as a fleet. These additional station or signal lights, shapes or whistle signals shall, so far as possible, be such that they cannot be mistaken for any light, shape, or signal authorised elsewhere under these Rules

 

But that still doesn't read that they apply to the canals, only that they shan't interfere with any pre-existing canal rules. Shirley?

[mayalld]

 

Yes

 

 

 

 

Strange as it may seem Colregs do apply by virtue of the fact that the Merchant Shipping Acts apply to all inland waterways (as well as at Sea).

 

Many waterways made their own regulations before the MSAs were enacted and that accounts for why some signals listed are at variance with Colregs.

Should there ever a be a very serious accident and MIAB looked at the case, the matter of whether sound signals were used might be a material point.

 

Just to keep this thread alive, perhaps the boat aground should have flown a signal flag....

 

'D' Delta - "Keep clear of me; I am manoeuvring with difficulty." or mebe -

F Foxtrot "I am disabled; communicate with me."

M Mike "My vessel is stopped and making no way through the water."

 

 

Now, that's another topic......

Just to elaborate

 

Colregs signals apply UNLESS the competent authority specifies other signals. (Colregs rule 1b)

 

As the BW bye-laws do this, they take precedence over colregs signals.

 

That must be the case. It would be ridiculous to have 2 different sets of signals with different meanings in use on the canals.

 

It may well be the case that the other boats don't know what your signal means, but that is their problem, not yours.

 

If you give the right signals you have done the best you can.

[Paul C]

if not aground the boat should have been moved out of the fairway.

 

It seems somewhat arrogant that a boater would use the centre of the canal to carry out repairs.

 

I find this attitude somewhat disturbing and a bit "Chris Pink", if you know what I mean. If I came across a boat such as Bettie's in the middle of the channel obviously not making way, I'd be offering to help them. Possibly by towing them off something if they're on an obstruction (backwards tow is best, due to the underwater shape of a boat) or at least trying to get them towards the bank (which might not be possible). I'd certainly not assume anyone stuck in the middle of the canal was being arrogant; if they were repairing their boat then I'd be offering to help here too.

 

I'm not too worried about whatever the sound signal is, but I'd certainly welcome one which indicated something wasn't right (5 beeps covers it - I'd also accept 2 beeps if they wanted me to pass on the wrong side). But I' also make verbal contact with them, slowing down/stopping as needs be to be able to talk to them.

[Tony Dunkley]

 

(1) Simply because I don't assume that every boat on the cut is under the control of some old miserable fart who has 50+ years of handling a narrow boat and has so many chips on their shoulders their arms look like they are coming straight out of their necks. (not referencing any particular old fart here) and that some boaters, whether experienced or not wold appreciate some form of communication that there was something amiss with the boat they were approaching

 

Not sure I understand what your problem is with novice boaters trying to learn the correct way to do things - hence my question

 

(2) Firstly I don't believe that for a minute - I would suspect you quite regularly find amusement in novices simple questions. Secondly, where in my OP did I remotely suggest the situation caused me either anxiety or problems? I asked a simple straight forward novice question, which numerous forum members assisted in giving quite reasonable answers and/or suggestions. And thirdly, I'd also suggest that you were somewhat disappointed that no one raised to the bait of yet again another attempt to take a simple situation and turn it into a CRT slagging match from your first post on the thread, so you've tried a different approach

 

A question for you Mr. Dunkley...do you take your spin tactics from Peter Mandelson's book?

 

I would further suggest that if you took your art of spin and the energy level you put into it, and turned it away from your hatred of CRT and focused it on a positive source and used it in relation to the likes of RSPCA or Heart & Stroke foundation or Cancer Research or any other worth while association the world would be a better place.

 

 

Oh and maybe try at some point to get your head around the fact that there are indeed a fair few of us novices on the cut and we tend to ask novice type questions, maybe you could attempt to use your wealth of knowledge and experience to assist them rather than your constant ridicule of them, it really is becoming rather tiring & boring.

 

I'm not going to dignify that tantrum with a full response, but I won't ignore the gibe about me having a problem with novices wanting to learn and asking questions.

I don't have any such problem, and a careful look through past topics will show very clearly that far from ridiculing those who either ask for advice, or ask sensible and pertinent questions, in fact, I invariably provide as much help and advice as I possibly can, frequently by means of lengthy and comprehensive answers with the offer of further information if required.

If at any future time you should develop a preference for factual and experience based answers, instead of just something which sits well with your Alice in Wonderland style preconceptions about many aspects of your new hobby, then I will be happy to oblige.

In the meantime, if you have any more questions in the same vein as the one concerning appropriate sound signals to make when a boat is stationary in a muddy ditch in an field in Buckinghamshire, then I suggest you save them until April the first next year.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[Graham Davis]

Your record is stuck again Mr Dunkley!!

[Bettie Boo]

 

 

In the meantime, if you have any more questions in the same vein as the one concerning appropriate sound signals to make when a boat is stationary in a muddy ditch in an field in Buckinghamshire, then I suggest you save them until April the first next year.

 

Mr Dunkley,

 

Suggest all you wish, after all it's an open forum and anyone can join. However, as someone still fairly new to living on the Inland waterways, I will continue to ask any questions I want which I feel are relevant to either, our safety or the harmony and consideration I would like to display towards others who also enjoy this lifestyle.

 

Do try not to feel to stressed or agitated however when I do not take any of the rantings offerings you seem so intent on supplying to the queries. It is true, I do much prefer to take the advice of others, most of whom back up their rational replies with links or quotes from laws, rules or sometimes just best practices.

[Naughty Cal]

 

The record is well and truly stuck again I see.

[ditchcrawler]

Well I am in Birmingham and all the trip boats and water taxi seem to use the same signal all the time, two hoots. the taxi did it and went straight on before pulling to the right hand bank.

[b0atman]

I think that the op raised the subject quite rightly. Why the nastiness of some of the usual suspects has to ruin a good topic I do not know this should be a good and friendly section if you wish to be spoilt prats then sod off to the Virtual pub .But apologise to the op first for your juvenile behaviour.

[mayalld]

I think that the op raised the subject quite rightly. Why the nastiness of some of the usual suspects has to ruin a good topic I do not know this should be a good and friendly section if you wish to be spoilt prats then sod off to the Virtual pub .But apologise to the op first for your juvenile behaviour.

The discussion has explored the subject of sound signals at some length and with almost no nastiness at all.

 

It is unfortunate that one person with a metric foot of 4 by 2 on his shoulder has chosen to get arsey, apparently to parade his credentials as some kind of superior being who knows better tha everybody else.

 

So much better that he chooses to mock the mere asking of the question.

 

His posts have left a lasting impression of him. Not i fear the intended impression, but lasting all the same

[bizzard]

I expect that most people couldn't give two hoots.

[valrene9600]

Can you imagine a banter attended by Betty and Tony. I reckon I could fill coaches from all over the country. I would take bets on who came out on top. I would take great pleasure taking the cash of those backing Mr. T.

Perhaps the proceeds of coach tickets and bets could be donated to canal restoration societies.

All said in fun.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

Whilst I understand the OP's original question about correct use of signals etc, I think we do seem to have lost a bit of practicality here. If I had come to a halt in the same circumstances I wouldn't have given any thought at all for making any sounds signals relying more on Bylaw 13 of the General Canal Bylaws which clearly states:-

 

13. Every vessel navigating on any canal shall at all times be
navigated with care and reasonable consideration for all persons
using the canal or being on the banks thereof and in particular in
such a manner as will not obstruct the passage of any other
vessel using the canal or involve risk of collision or endanger the
safety of other vessels or their moorings or cause damage
thereto or to the banks of the canal or to any part of the Board’s
property

 

My main concern would be to clear the obstructed prop and get moving again and if some muppet comes barrelling down the canal and rams into me he/she is clearly in breach of Bylaw 13. Things would be different if, for example I were on a busy waterway such as the Thames in London (although not covered by CRT!) with a variety of craft criss-crossing the river in thick fog sound signals would be appropriate but on a general canal where there aren't going to be that many who actually know what ANY sound signal means (how many hirers are given such training??) the only logical response you are likely to get is "Why are they sounding their horn whilst halfway across the canal?". I have come across a number of boat that have broken free from their moorings are lying across the canal without making a sound, would that be any defence if I rammed into one??

[mark99]

Good point, that's why I used my ecoblaster, & pointed it at him ...

 

2015-08-09 09.38.02.jpg

 

 

Whats the signal for I've run out of air and can't use the air hooter?

Edited August 22, 2015 by mark99

[Scholar Gypsy]

 

 

Whats the signal for I've run out of air and can't use the air hooter?

Just mime the action of using a bicycle pump: better still use one. You get sbout 30 secs on a full canister.

 

I also have a small foghorn that you blow into, useful for scullers etc.

[patty-ann]

Thanks BB for bringing up this topic...use of horn and different toots had quite passed me by being a mere novice with perhaps Alice in Wonderland approach to my new hobby. I do toot but not in any planned sequence.

I am now typing out all the appropriate toots for use in circumstances as dictated by rules n regulations.

I needs must acquire a stop sign as advised by Mr Bizzard.

I just need to work out how to read/reach the horn/stay in control of tiller simultaneously though I do have air horn for emergencies..cept I haven't put taken that out of its packaging yet.

I also needs must purchase bolt cutter to clear the prop when it gets snarled up..thats another thread..sorry..

[Beaker]

Thanks for that Rob

 

Mike - couldn't have been me causing the ruckus on the Merseyside - At best our horn sounds more like the sound Beaker on the Muppets makes....meep, meep, meep

 

Meep?

[Dave Clinton]

Whilst I understand the OP's original question about correct use of signals etc, I think we do seem to have lost a bit of practicality here. If I had come to a halt in the same circumstances I wouldn't have given any thought at all for making any sounds signals relying more on Bylaw 13 of the General Canal Bylaws which clearly states:-

 

13. Every vessel navigating on any canal shall at all times be

navigated with care and reasonable consideration for all persons

using the canal or being on the banks thereof and in particular in

such a manner as will not obstruct the passage of any other

vessel using the canal or involve risk of collision or endanger the

safety of other vessels or their moorings or cause damage

thereto or to the banks of the canal or to any part of the Boards

property

 

My main concern would be to clear the obstructed prop and get moving again and if some muppet comes barrelling down the canal and rams into me he/she is clearly in breach of Bylaw 13. Things would be different if, for example I were on a busy waterway such as the Thames in London (although not covered by CRT!) with a variety of craft criss-crossing the river in thick fog sound signals would be appropriate but on a general canal where there aren't going to be that many who actually know what ANY sound signal means (how many hirers are given such training??) the only logical response you are likely to get is "Why are they sounding their horn whilst halfway across the canal?". I have come across a number of boat that have broken free from their moorings are lying across the canal without making a sound, would that be any defence if I rammed into one??

As your example clearly demonstrates the first responsibility of a boat's captain when disabled in this way is the move the boat out of the channel so as not to present an obstruction or a danger to themselves or other vessels.

 

That this was a muddy ditch in Buckinghamshire rather than the busy commercial Thames doesn't alter that principle.

 

To claim that to do so would put the boat aground is no excuse as once the boat was aground it would no longer be an obstruction and the correct response by an approaching boat would be to facilitate this. There is no question of 'ramming' or failing to appreciate the situation in these circumstances.

 

Tony Dunkley is entirely correct in his analysis that the OP appears simply another example, of which there are so many, of using ignorance and inexperience as a a reason for not following proper procedure as if in some way there was an alternative rule book just for them.

[ditchcrawler]

My god you lot all know the rules. No I have not boated as long as Tony, I don't know about Dave,I have obviously never met you or I would have heard you coming, but the only time I have ever heard the proper sound signals, is on the Thames from Alaska or the Salters boats.

[Bettie Boo]

Thanks BB for bringing up this topic...use of horn and different toots had quite passed me by being a mere novice with perhaps Alice in Wonderland approach to my new hobby. I do toot but not in any planned sequence.

I am now typing out all the appropriate toots for use in circumstances as dictated by rules n regulations.

I needs must acquire a stop sign as advised by Mr Bizzard.

I just need to work out how to read/reach the horn/stay in control of tiller simultaneously though I do have air horn for emergencies..cept I haven't put taken that out of its packaging yet.

I also needs must purchase bolt cutter to clear the prop when it gets snarled up..thats another thread..sorry..

 

Well like some very wise souls (ditchcrawler & Ray T & Lady Muck) once told me when I first joined the forum and was getting a fair amount of flack in response to asking some newbi/novice questions - their not a bad bunch all in all, once you learn to separate the wheat from the chaff

 

I think my "bizzard sign" will be 3 sided...Stop, Yeild, Go

 

 

Meep?

 

on reflection, it might be more of a beep than a meep....to me it wold be like putting the horn from an old VW Bettle into a Hummer or Big ol' Land Rover

 

 

Tony Dunkley is entirely correct in his analysis that the OP appears simply another example, of which there are so many, of using ignorance and inexperience as a a reason for not following proper procedure as if in some way there was an alternative rule book just for them.

 

LMAO - you really must try harder Dave. If I wasn't interested in following the proper procedure, why would I have asked the question in the first place?

 

 

 

 

 

Once again, thank you to all who have taken the time and effort to actually read the OP and then point me in the right direction, with the actual documentation to back it up in a lot of cases; and able to do so without being even slightly offensive or obstinate in your replies. You guys (and gals) really are the back bone of this forum, and give us novices the confidence to keep asking our questions.