which signal should I have used please?

[mayalld]

 

From what was said in the OP, it doesn't sound as if you, or any other approaching boat would be able to bash on at anything like 4 mph in these or any similar circumstances. Quoted from OP ~ "Slowly cruising along a very shallow pound today, far to shallow to get close to either side to moor up. While scrapping along the bottom we picked up assorted "stuff" on the prop, to the point we had to stop in the middle of the canal to clear it; on a straight section of canal so other boats could see us sitting in the middle, slightly off to the right hand side.

Why it was imagined that any kind of signal, by sound or any other method, would be necessary in circumstances such as this is quite beyond comprehension.

Courtesy to your fellow boaters.

 

See what new things you learn about here

[Iain_S]

The fact is that there IS a signal for "I am aground in the fairway". It is 5 short blasts.

 

The use of that signal in limited visibility is mandated.

 

The use of that signal in good visibility is not forbidden.

 

In any case, if you believe that the other boat can't see that you are aground, that amounts to limited visibility.

 

Actually, the OP was correct. 12 (3) (c )

 

 

 

(c ) A vessel when towing and a vessel under way which is unable

to get out of the way of an approaching vessel

through being not

under command or unable to manoeuvre as required by these

Bye-laws shall sound, at intervals of not more than one minute,

three blasts in succession, namely, one prolonged blast followed

by two short blasts.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Iain_S

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Actually, the OP was correct. 12 (3) (c )

 

Quote

(c ) A vessel when towing and a vessel under way which is unable

to get out of the way of an approaching vessel

through being not

under command or unable to manoeuvre as required by these

Bye-laws shall sound, at intervals of not more than one minute,

three blasts in succession, namely, one prolonged blast followed

by two short blasts.

 

 

Well spotted.

[mayalld]

 

Actually, the OP was correct. 12 (3) (c )

 

 

 

Try reading the next line.

 

12 (3) (d)

 

The item that you quote refers to a vessel that is underway.

 

That is a vessel that is moving, but unable to manoeuvre.

 

A vessel that has run aground is NOT under way.

 

Why try to use a signal that nearly fits when there is a signal that exactly fits?

[Tony Dunkley]

Courtesy to your fellow boaters.

 

See what new things you learn about here

 

In your post #15 you said ~ " Bye law 12 makes those signals mandatory in restricted visibility only (curiously signalling a turn is always mandatory CRT missing a trick on prosecutions here)."

Now in post #26 these same sound signals have been relegated from something which failure to make should result in prosecution, to being nothing more than mere courtesies.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not learning anything here that I didn't already know.

.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[Scholar Gypsy]

The boat following me up the Trent on Friday looked a bit surprised when I did 4+2 before turning around to port for the pontoons at Gainsborough. I have yet to check the ABP bylaws...

[Higgs]

If the in-charge person working the approaching boat hasn't got problems hearing above the sound of the engine, the puny sounds that come from alot of horns would just about register in a library.

[Scholar Gypsy]

If the in-charge person working the approaching boat hasn't got problems hearing above the sound of the engine, the puny sounds that come from alot of horns would just about register in a library.

Good point, that's why I used my ecoblaster, & pointed it at him ...

 

[Tony Dunkley]

The boat following me up the Trent on Friday looked a bit surprised when I did 4+2 before turning around to port for the pontoons at Gainsborough. I have yet to check the ABP bylaws...

 

Sad to say, but that has almost always been the usual reaction I've seen from most pleasure craft to sound signals, even when made by a commercial vessel needing deep water and wanting the pleasure boat to pass 'wrong side' for it's own safety. It beggars belief that anyone venturing out onto a river with the prospect or possibility of meeting or being passed by large commercials, will do so without familiarizing themselves with at least all the necessary basic knowledge.

The signal which you used is not, as far as I'm aware, listed in the Col Regs, and never has been. It is ,however, the correct and long established signal for vessels rounding up (to port) on inland waterways, and would certainly be recognized and understood by any competent skipper on the Trent, Ouse and Humber. Shipping arriving at the wharves on the lower Trent can sometimes not only be heard, but also be seen making it as they frequently supplement the sound signal with a sychronized light signal. Something that the skipper of the boat following you in Gainsborough should make himself aware of before venturing out on the Trent again, particularly at or below Keadby.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[Victor Vectis]

A road menders STOP-GO board on a stick might be useful in that situation.

Odana, of this parish, was seen on the BCN Challenge with one of those!

 

[bizzard]

Odana, of this parish, was seen on the BCN Challenge with one of those!

 

And very sensible too.

[Higgs]

Odana, of this parish, was seen on the BCN Challenge with one of those!

 

 

 

Don't you have to nick them, or should I buy a more expensive range of crackers this Christmas.

[Woodsy]

The IMO Colregs defines 'underway' as meaning "that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground".

It has been stated in posts above that the sound signal defined in bylaw 12 (3) (d) would be an appropriate one to use in the OPs case (albeit in clear visibility). I would suspect as they were stopped to clear assorted stuff from the prop they had picked up while scrapping along the bottom, they were not aground (OP has not stated in any of the above posts that they were actually "aground"). I would think if they were aground they would not have been able to be "scrapping along", in fact having stopped the engine & propeller would have increased the under water clearance and they would most likely not be a "scrapping along" situation any more. In which case the original stated sound signal of bylaw 12 (3) (c ) would be more appropriate (albeit in clear visibility), or even morse code letter U (2 short 1 long) "you are standing into danger".

Personally seeing a boat appearing to be stopped in the water (no bow wave, wake or prop wash) would alert me to navigate with more caution than normal until past and clear of them.

The whole intention of limited / restricted visibility sound signals and lights is to alert other vessels in the vicinity to the vessels presence and navigational ability in conditions when visibility is reduced and therefore may not be easy to determine - although there is nothing to stop these sound signals being used in clear visibility I suspect that the only people to understand their meaning would already be navigating with more caution than normal seeing a boat stopped in the middle of the canal, for others frantic shouting / screaming jumping up & down with much waving of hands in the air would have the same desired effect - albeit appearing very amateurish but possibly good exercise as well?

[Paul C]

Yeah its 5 short blasts

[Bettie Boo]

 

 

(1) Why it was imagined that any kind of signal, by sound or any other method, would be necessary in circumstances such as this is quite beyond comprehension.

 

(2) I don't make a habit out of laughing at the anxieties and avoidable difficulties that inexperienced amateur boaters so often inflict upon themselves, but I must confess to being somewhat amused by the problems that brought about the OP being encountered by someone who was so very recently taking such great exception to my criticism of C&RT's inability to maintain water levels at or around what they should be.

 

(1) Simply because I don't assume that every boat on the cut is under the control of some old miserable fart who has 50+ years of handling a narrow boat and has so many chips on their shoulders their arms look like they are coming straight out of their necks. (not referencing any particular old fart here) and that some boaters, whether experienced or not wold appreciate some form of communication that there was something amiss with the boat they were approaching

 

Not sure I understand what your problem is with novice boaters trying to learn the correct way to do things - hence my question

 

(2) Firstly I don't believe that for a minute - I would suspect you quite regularly find amusement in novices simple questions. Secondly, where in my OP did I remotely suggest the situation caused me either anxiety or problems? I asked a simple straight forward novice question, which numerous forum members assisted in giving quite reasonable answers and/or suggestions. And thirdly, I'd also suggest that you were somewhat disappointed that no one raised to the bait of yet again another attempt to take a simple situation and turn it into a CRT slagging match from your first post on the thread, so you've tried a different approach

 

A question for you Mr. Dunkley...do you take your spin tactics from Peter Mandelson's book?

 

I would further suggest that if you took your art of spin and the energy level you put into it, and turned it away from your hatred of CRT and focused it on a positive source and used it in relation to the likes of RSPCA or Heart & Stroke foundation or Cancer Research or any other worth while association the world would be a better place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh and maybe try at some point to get your head around the fact that there are indeed a fair few of us novices on the cut and we tend to ask novice type questions, maybe you could attempt to use your wealth of knowledge and experience to assist them rather than your constant ridicule of them, it really is becoming rather tiring & boring.

[OldGoat]

Bettie Boo -

methinks you do protest too much; Mr. Dunkley may be OTT in trying to explain the nuances of sound signals, but he's trying to help in his own way...

It infuriates me when folks can't be bothered to learn (at least the basics 1,2 and 3) what sound signals mean, or the minimal any sound signal means "Attention I'm doing something".

Hand signals can be too vague. For example If I put my right hand out - does it mean pass me on my RHS, or I'm going to my right??

 

If I'm approaching a bridge hole and I can see another boat coning the other way, but further away (so it's "my" bridge), BUT his side is obstructed AND mine isn't - I'll go astern and give three blasts to tell him what I'm doing - he doesn't understand, stops and goes on the mud.

After all everyone who drives a car knows what indicator signals (should) mean, so why not boating signals?

[Iain_S]

Try reading the next line.

 

12 (3) (d)

The item that you quote refers to a vessel that is underway.

That is a vessel that is moving, but unable to manoeuvre.

A vessel that has run aground is NOT under way.

Why try to use a signal that nearly fits when there is a signal that exactly fits?

 

My reading of the OP was that they were dragging the bottom, not actually aground.

 

Makes very little difference, anyway,as I doubt that 1 in 10 canal boaters would understand either signal , but might well interpret a series of short blasts as "Get out the (_{insert epithet of choice}) way"

[Graham Davis]

I'm still confused.

 

Do Col Regs actually have any LEGAL standing on the canals (wide or narrow)?

[Bettie Boo]

Bettie Boo -

methinks you do protest too much; Mr. Dunkley may be OTT in trying to explain the nuances of sound signals, but he's trying to help in his own way...

It infuriates me when folks can't be bothered to learn (at least the basics 1,2 and 3) what sound signals mean, or the minimal any sound signal means "Attention I'm doing something".

 

But that's what my OP was trying to establish, if I had indeed used the correct signal under the circumstances described.

 

Nothing to do with why the pound was so shallow, or poor water level maintenance or even whether a sound signal would have been understood by any and all approaching boats; or even if a signal was indeed required.

 

Just simply did I use the correct one.

 

Being a novice I am still learning, and don't mind at all being told or shown a better or correct way of doing something, hence my OP.

 

But do take a bit of exception when someone states that they find less experienced boaters queries needless. How else are we meant to learn the finer details of boating safely and considerately if we don't ask? We weren't all born with a tiller up our arse and frankly I don't believe we need to quietly put up with some of the ridicule he at times posts

[Woodsy]

I'm still confused.

 

Do Col Regs actually have any LEGAL standing on the canals (wide or narrow)?

Other than in the canals described in the bylaws (link in post 9 above by mayalld) or other waterways with their own specific regulations, yes.

It would appear that these bylaws are based on the colregs in force at the time the bylaws were written and adapted to suit the particular requirements of these particular canals - however I am more than happy to be corrected if I have got this wrong.

i.e I am more than certain the colregs apply on the Manchester ship canal & river Thames.

 

Edited to correct spellin of Mayalld's name.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Woodsy

[Bettie Boo]

 

My reading of the OP was that they were dragging the bottom, not actually aground.

 

Makes very little difference, anyway,as I doubt that 1 in 10 canal boaters would understand either signal , but might well interpret a series of short blasts as "Get out the (_{insert epithet of choice}) way"

 

That's right Iain - we weren't actually grounded, when we were moving before the prop fouled, we heard & felt the bottom scrapping a couple of times, but not constantly.

 

From my own point of view, I wouldn't relay on every approaching boater to understand the sound signal and would still have used the visual signal as well, which I did.

 

But for my own piece of mind (and maybe a little bit of pride) like to know the "right" way of doing things; for those rare occasions when you do come across someone who does understand the different sound signals and their meaning. I'd rather them think "ah that's refreshing, there's someone who knows the different signals and how to use them"

 

I appreciate there was no real issue in regards to being rammed or anything like that, but I fail to see the problem with attempting to communicate the situation properly to uncoming boats. If nothing else it might just have intrigued someone enough to investigate what the sound signals meant if they didn't understand them and increase their knowledge as well.

 

...not that your post implied there was anything wrong with what I did

[Dave Clinton]

if not aground the boat should have been moved out of the fairway.

 

It seems somewhat arrogant that a boater would use the centre of the canal to carry out repairs.

[Woodsy]

if not aground the boat should have been moved out of the fairway.

It seems somewhat arrogant that a boater would use the centre of the canal to carry out repairs.

I would hardly thought drifting down a canal while clearing a fouled prop is in the same league as carrying out repairs.

Admittedly I would have moved moved to the canal bank and secured the boat before attempting to clear the fouled prop if possible, but there are a lot of unknowns here, there may not have been anywhere to moor, the water may not have been deep enough on shelving banks to reach the side etc.

 

Edited for typo again

Edited August 9, 2015 by Woodsy

[Bettie Boo]

if not aground the boat should have been moved out of the fairway.

 

It seems somewhat arrogant that a boater would use the centre of the canal to carry out repairs.

 

 

OK so here's the scenario..

 

Slowly cruising along a very shallow pound today, far to shallow to get close to either side to moor up. While scrapping along the bottom we picked up assorted "stuff" on the prop, to the point we had to stop in the middle of the canal to clear it; on a straight section of canal so other boats could see us sitting in the middle, slightly off to the right hand side.

 

As I'm still not very good at remembering the different sound signals and what to use them for, I have a printed copy of the 5 main signals I keep in the Nicholson's which is kept on the top of the back hatch when we are cruising.

 

So while Dave was down clearing the prop, I was assigned to stand at the back and keep an eye out for boats coming in either direction. I looked at my "cheat sheet" and couldn't find a horn signal to cover....

 

We are currently unpowered and unable to move.

 

I used the bottom one a Long and 2 shorts - as it says it's good for "restricted ability to manoeuvre; was that correct even though it was lovely and sunny and no sign of FOG anywhere?

 

As it was only one boat came past and they said they didn't have a clue what the sound signals meant, and my waving my arms gave them a much clearer idea that we were having problems so they slowed down to a very slow tick over before proceeding past us.

 

 

** Just as a foot note, I think we've been pretty lucky really. This was only the second time we've had to stop to clear the prop in over a year of cruising. Any other time he's been able to clear it with a bit of reverse/forward/reverse action as it's only been some pond weed

 

To give you the benefit of doubt, I've highlighted the bits I think you've missed from the OP.

 

In fairness, maybe I should have said we moved as far to the right hand side as possible without "completely" grounding ourselves, but still a fair distance off the bank. And there was no chance of getting closer to the bank on the other side before you suggest it.

 

We were far enough away from the centre for a single narrow boat to pass with caution, but a WB would not have made it

[David Mack]

After all everyone who drives a car knows what indicator signals (should) mean, so why not boating signals?

Yes indeed. We all know these two common signals used by road vehicle drivers:

 

Flashing headlights: "I am waiting for you - please come through"

 

Flashing headlights: "Stop! I'm coming through!"