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Mike the Boilerman

Zundfix ignitors...

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i must ask,why don't you go electric?

In my opinion blow torch is for fun or show,cold starters if you got any,electric quick and easy but not for show.

 

/Christian

 

 

I'd love to!

 

Where does one get one of those lovely looking electric heater coil things?

(I was about to move onto this as my neat thread!)

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Mike,

 

Maybe folks have suggested this to you before but could you not take a leaf out of the book of the Field Marshall tractor fraternity and make your own starting papers? There seems to be a good recipe here. These papers are always lit in the holder and even given a good blow before being screwed in.

 

I don't know if your Skandia engine is sufficiently different to a Field Marshall for this not to work. Have you seen them being hand started? Usually possible at your nearest Agric/Steam Rally - does the one at Knowl Hill near Maidenhead still happen?

 

The tractor is spun up decompressed by hand with a system that drops the decompression valve after a few turns so that the flywheel momentum helps take it over full compression (Like those arrangements with bits of string round the handle shaft on some boat engines). I realise that you use the "rocking" technique on yours so this is obviously a difference which must make the compression lower than taking it right over.

 

Maybe if you made your own papers you could make a shape that when rolled up would properly fit the hole where the plug is on your engine?

 

Just a thought.

 

Richard

 

Edit - Small snag - I see you might need to have a shot gun licence!!

Edited by rjasmith

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Glow plug for a car would work otherwise check with Hundested a/s,they still have some parts for their old engines.

As you said this is not a hard part to make.

Coil style of glovplug are often used(penta AD40 is one i think)

Here is an email address to a hotbulb guru in DK: perroemer(at)webspeed.dk

Here is the email to a guy at hundested: brian(at)hundestedpropeller.dk

 

/Christian

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Read my post you quoted!

 

Somebody who just wants to start their engine up, and set of straight away, without frigging about with blow-lamps, small explosive charges, or introducing petrol on to a boat that doesn't otherwise require it.

 

I'll concede you semi-diesel, (or even Kelvin), guys can usually get under way faster from a cold start up than President, Adamant or Laplander, but even so........

Now, Now, young sir. Back in the 60's when a good few of these clanking 2 cylinder lumps required a lot of heaving & grunting on a starting handle to get the lump to clatter into life. I could turn on the glow/heater plug & even with the cut frozen, the 2 minutes it took to check & top up the oiler box set the controls a quick blip on the air start handle & away it would go with no mechanical clatter just the swish of the air valves & the poinging ring of the exhaust note. Modern kit these gearbox equipped 1 pot semi diesels clapping.gif

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Now, Now, young sir. Back in the 60's when a good few of these clanking 2 cylinder lumps required a lot of heaving & grunting on a starting handle to get the lump to clatter into life. I could turn on the glow/heater plug & even with the cut frozen, the 2 minutes it took to check & top up the oiler box set the controls a quick blip on the air start handle & away it would go with no mechanical clatter just the swish of the air valves & the poinging ring of the exhaust note. Modern kit these gearbox equipped 1 pot semi diesels clapping.gif

 

I feel duly chastised!

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Should not be a problem to fit an electric glow plug there,how deep is the hole were you put the "cold starter"?

I have an exploded wiew somewerefrusty.gifjudge.gif of the hundested glow plug but cant find it,just to give you an idea how it looks and works.

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The hole in my head, so to speak, is 16mm in diameter, and there is a reduction in diameter (presumably as a stop for the ignitor) 70mm in from the blind face of the plug.

 

So the maximum size of igniter that can be accommodated is 16mm x 70mm

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Mike,

 

Do you still have that rather nice 2-cylinder "H" series Lister that you picked up at a bargain price?

 

Simple answer is to bung that in instead of the Skandia - it will start effortlessly from cold, and you'll be up and running in seconds without any of the faff!

 

ETA: It will also always start rotating in the correct direction!

Nononononono, I want that one.... Keep the Skandia, it's much more fun.

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Nononononono, I want that one.... Keep the Skandia, it's much more fun.

 

Just right for Willow

 

I could probably find a Blackstone box for it too

 

Richard

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Would one of these fit? Scroll to the bottom half of the page:

 

http://histoparts.com/en/webshop/glow-plugs.html

 

Image00053A.jpg

That one is very similar to the one fitted in the Seffle.Also the ones in some Lanz tractors are similar; possibly the same, a visit to the Great Dorset steam fair in September & a good rummage around the jumble stalls will either come up with something or somebody knows a source to obtain one, the stationary engine/historic tractor guys are into this type of kit.

Edited by X Alan W

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I'm probably doing a Granny + eggs thing again but you may realise that some of those glow plugs from the Histoparts site are low voltage high current things (typically about 1.5v). One on its own will need a very large series dropper resistor if run from a 12v batt.

 

The old Landrover 2.25l diesel uses this type of plug (4 in series) but still needs a dropper. Very good plugs though, they don't seem to fail and the four in our L/R must now be 37 years old!

 

Of course one will fail now I've said that!

 

Modern 12v parallel plugs seem much less resilient.

 

I must admit that I'm far from being any sort of expert on a semi-diesel but I'm surprised that they can be started on just an electric glow plug without using the blowlamp on the hot bulb, especially when using the flywheel rocking technique.

 

Willing to be corrected of course!!

 

Richard

Edited by rjasmith

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I'm probably doing a Granny + eggs thing again but you may realise that some of those glow plugs from the Histoparts site are low voltage high current things (typically about 1.5v). One on its own will need a very large series dropper resistor if run from a 12v batt.

 

The old Landrover 2.25l diesel uses this type of plug (4 in series) but still needs a dropper. Very good plugs though, they don't seem to fail and the four in our L/R must now be 37 years old!

 

Of course one will fail now I've said that!

 

Modern 12v parallel plugs seem much less resilient.

 

I must admit that I'm far from being any sort of expert on a semi-diesel but I'm surprised that they can be started on just an electric glow plug without using the blowlamp on the hot bulb, especially when using the flywheel rocking technique.

 

Willing to be corrected of course!!

 

Richard

 

 

I must say, I'm highly skeptical too. I think there could be two problems.

 

1) The pesky thing still won't start on an ordinary coily glowplug

2) The glowplug takes over from the hot bulb even when the current is turned OFF and 'wears out' in short order.

 

A better way of limiting the current through a single glow plug would be to use a pulse width modulating bit of electronics, I suspect.

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Thanks Peter, that's the place I bought mine from and they only sell them up to 8mm. The hole mine fit into is 16mm in diameter.

 

I also find it hard to understand how they can self ignite. Mine don't do anything under compression.. And if I light one before inserting, it self-extinguishes on compression, hence my suspicion I'm doing something very wrong...

 

!

What about a little ball of cotton wool with a few drops of Ether on it. Experiments would be needed though, I'd start with a tiny drop, gradually increasing the dose until it starts. The cotton wool could be stuck on the end that T handle thing.

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I must say, I'm highly skeptical too. I think there could be two problems.

 

1) The pesky thing still won't start on an ordinary coily glowplug

2) The glowplug takes over from the hot bulb even when the current is turned OFF and 'wears out' in short order.

 

A better way of limiting the current through a single glow plug would be to use a pulse width modulating bit of electronics, I suspect.

 

Hmm - that could be quite a Hi tech solution cos that plug's going to take around 50A!

 

Certainly the Land Rover ones do - its 50A ammeter goes just off scale.

 

Unless your engine takes lots of minutes of glow plug time before starting I'd go low tech and find/make a big resistor.

 

In the L/R there is a very simple coil of heavy resistance wire mounted on a fireproof (hopefully) block. This drops about 4 - 5 volts and a dashboard warning light of similar voltage is wired across it to tell you things are working. You can even tell by the slight dimming of the bulb that the plugs have warmed up before starting to crank.

 

Alternatively why not try something like the Bizzard system or even have a go at making some Field Marshall style papers ref my earlier post? Couldn't you drill the end of your T bar stopper to hold a rolled up paper? (It's just struck me that someone in the past might have decided to cut off its "holder" part - do you think that's possible?)

 

I was hoping another semi-diesel expert might comment on whether you still need to do hot bulb heating though!

 

Richard

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This is a 12V heater plug for a Lister. I'm not sure if it for in cylinder or air heating. I'll check the appropriate manual

 

plug-1.jpg

 

plug-2.jpg

 

Richard

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Hmm - that could be quite a Hi tech solution cos that plug's going to take around 50A!

 

Certainly the Land Rover ones do - its 50A ammeter goes just off scale.

 

Unless your engine takes lots of minutes of glow plug time before starting I'd go low tech and find/make a big resistor.

 

In the L/R there is a very simple coil of heavy resistance wire mounted on a fireproof (hopefully) block. This drops about 4 - 5 volts and a dashboard warning light of similar voltage is wired across it to tell you things are working. You can even tell by the slight dimming of the bulb that the plugs have warmed up before starting to crank.

 

Alternatively why not try something like the Bizzard system or even have a go at making some Field Marshall style papers ref my earlier post? Couldn't you drill the end of your T bar stopper to hold a rolled up paper? (It's just struck me that someone in the past might have decided to cut off its "holder" part - do you think that's possible?)

 

I was hoping another semi-diesel expert might comment on whether you still need to do hot bulb heating though!

 

Richard

I never had to use anything extra to the glow plug to start the 25HP one pot Seffle;Make sure gearbox in neutral. Start up procedure Open decomp bleed tap& turn flywheel to line up mark on flywheel with mark on cylinder, turn on glow plug, open throttle about 1/4, open "oil rod"1/8 (this adjusted the sprayer injector), prime with 6 or so shots with fuel pump priming lever, give crank handle on oiler box a few turns, watch for oil drips in the sight glasses, approx 11/2 to 2 mins from switching on glow plug, give fuel primer another shot,If engine is warm enough flywheel will gently rock back a forth If so open air start valve & a Quick pull/push & hold against compression & away. If air start bottle is low, pull out spring loaded pin in flywheel & kick/push in the wrong rotation against compression more often than not it would spring back & run, If the flywheel didn't move when the single shot of fuel was primed in leave to warm a little longer IIRC 3 mins warming was the longest I had to wait This was caused by the glow plug coil getting carbon ed up a careful clean & back don to the 2 min mark In the 10 years I owned the boat I only had to use the blowlamp 2or 3 times ( due to flat battery )& that took around 15 mins to achieve the the desired effect.

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I never had to use anything extra to the glow plug to start the 25HP one pot Seffle;Make sure gearbox in neutral. Start up procedure Open decomp bleed tap& turn flywheel to line up mark on flywheel with mark on cylinder, turn on glow plug, open throttle about 1/4, open "oil rod"1/8 (this adjusted the sprayer injector), prime with 6 or so shots with fuel pump priming lever, give crank handle on oiler box a few turns, watch for oil drips in the sight glasses, approx 11/2 to 2 mins from switching on glow plug, give fuel primer another shot,If engine is warm enough flywheel will gently rock back a forth If so open air start valve & a Quick pull/push & hold against compression & away. If air start bottle is low, pull out spring loaded pin in flywheel & kick/push in the wrong rotation against compression more often than not it would spring back & run, If the flywheel didn't move when the single shot of fuel was primed in leave to warm a little longer IIRC 3 mins warming was the longest I had to wait This was caused by the glow plug coil getting carbon ed up a careful clean & back don to the 2 min mark In the 10 years I owned the boat I only had to use the blowlamp 2or 3 times ( due to flat battery )& that took around 15 mins to achieve the the desired effect.

It had worked for 60yrs with electrical glowplugs.

I start my Hundested the same way as you do and had no problem.

 

/Christian

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IMO a lot depends on whether MtB wants an original non electric start system for his engine OR whether he wants to modify it to electric preheat and /or electric start.

 

A full electric start would be an interesting project, BUT would it look right among all the polished copper and brass of a trad "engine room"

 

ONLY MtB can make that choice.

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