Next Meeting Of South East Boating Sub-Group - Monday 22Nd June 2015

[alan_fincher]

There has been some comment on CWDF that people do not know what is being discussed in this sub-group. This is the agenda I have recently received for the meeting next Monday.

 

(Before anybody asks, I don't yet know what "Trade Boat Exemption" refers to - perhaps someone can enlighten me before the meeting?)

 

 

AGENDA

 

Title: South East Boating Sub-Group

 

Date: 22nd June 2015

Attendees
Members – John Best (JB), Lynda Payton (LP), James Griffin (JG), Alan Wildman (AW), Alan Fincher (AF), David Daines (DD)
CRT Staff - Matthew Symonds (MS), Vicky Martin (VM), Hannah Roe (HR), Sam Anderson-Brown (SA)
Apologies
David Cook (DC), Judy Clegg (JC)

1. Welcome and introductions – Vicky Martin, David Cook & Cathy Court (joining in September) LP

2. Declarations of Interest

3. Vicky Martin – an opportunity to meet the new South East Waterway Manager VM

4. Notes from the previous meeting/Matters arising LP

5. Trade Boat Exemption SA

 

6. South East Waterway 10 Year Plan JB/VM

7. Visitor Moorings updates MS
- Existing sites (Thrupp, Foxton Locks, Stoke Bruerne)
- New sites (Oxford, Banbury)
- Other sites being monitored (Batchworth, Berkhamsted, Braunston, Cowroast, Marsworth)
- Changes to trade boat conditions
- Soulbury Three Locks

8. Giffard Park Quiet Zone Proposal MS

 

9. Winter Mooring 2015/16 MS

10. Customer Service Standard Update VM

11. AOB All

12. Dates for future meetings:

[cotswoldsman]

Thanks for that Alan

the following comments are not aimed at you but fairly and squarely at the way CRT operate and Richard Parry.

I see you are discussing Winter Moorings along with the next meeting of NAG. I am struggling to find anyone within those 2 groups who would know anything about Winter Moorings or have even ever purchased one. 3 years ago CRT were going to scrap WM because they were losing money on them when they took into account the time and cost of admin. Myself and Steve came up with a very simple scheme that required minimum admin and cost and had a good revenue potential. In 2 years over £500,000 Last year Richard Parry assured me that I would be consulted on any future discussion on WM this has not happened but maybe I should not be surprised. The thing that really upsets me about this process is it seems the people who spent their money on these towpath moorings do not get any voice in the matter. It is as if we are just a revenue stream not worth talking to I think it is disgusting way to treat a group of boaters. I started a Facebook Group a few years ago for ccers it has over 800 members and over 100 of those paid for winter moorings so it would not be difficult for CRT to consult with us. And before anyone says it this was started along with the Winter Moorings before ACC was even thought of.

anyway I hope your group along with MS enjoy your discussions on Winter Moorings

[Bod]

Who are able to attend these meeting?

Open to public, or by invitation.

 

Bod

[alan_fincher]

John,

I not disagreeing with your thoughts, but would point out that there has been an advertised vacancy on this sub-group specifically for someone who cruises without a home mooring for many months now.

If someone were recruited, (and I suspect it could be two people, as there were initially two CC-ers on the sub-group), then there is a very good chance that they will either be in the category of having purchased a winter mooring themselves, or at least being in regular contact with many who have.

I have actively pursued personally a couple of recommendations of people that others had said, (and I agreed), would be good CC-er members, but unfortunately in each case their personal circumstances have changed, and, although living aboard, they are now on permanent moorings, so don't meet the CC-er criterion.

Both the SE Partnership chair, and the current chair of the sub-group are keen to improve CC-er representation, but nobody I am aware of has applied. It would be great if someone suitable would come forward - is there any "qualifying" person reading this prepared to apply ?

As it happens, I don't think I'm expecting more than a possible "state of play" update on the topic of winter moorings. I don't think the sub-group has any remit in what I would expect to be national decisions. Anyway the feedback I have heard is that the final decisions about 2015/2016 are not going to be taken for a while yet - is that your understanding, please?

You may be surprised to learn that there is strong support within the sub-group the winter moorings be retained in much last years form though, from people not always supportive of the CC-ers cause. The fact that winter moorings have generated significant revenue for CRT is seen as a very strong positive, and seems to go some way to placate those who seem to feel that CC-ers are "getting for nothing what we have to pay for". (I stress the latter is not a view I can ever get my brain around, but, as you know, it is a regularly stated opinion).

[cotswoldsman]

Who are able to attend these meeting?

Open to public, or by invitation.

 

Bod

Stricktly invitation only and vetted by CRT

[alan_fincher]

Who are able to attend these meeting?

Open to public, or by invitation.

 

Bod

 

No,

 

Unfortunately these groups are not open to being observed by those not members of them. I recall that it was asked in the past if people could observe the main partnership meetings, and it seemed that overall CRT were not minded to allow it. Someone may be able to find the thread where the whole idea was mooted? I imagine CRT's attitude towards a partnership sub-group would bbe no different from the main partnership meetings, but you could always try asking them.

[cotswoldsman]

John,

 

I not disagreeing with your thoughts, but would point out that there has been an advertised vacancy on this sub-group specifically for someone who cruises without a home mooring for many months now.

 

If someone were recruited, (and I suspect it could be two people, as there were initially two CC-ers on the sub-group), then there is a very good chance that they will either be in the category of having purchased a winter mooring themselves, or at least being in regular contact with many who have.

 

I have actively pursued personally a couple of recommendations of people that others had said, (and I agreed), would be good CC-er members, but unfortunately in each case their personal circumstances have changed, and, although living aboard, they are now on permanent moorings, so don't meet the CC-er criterion.

 

Both the SE Partnership chair, and the current chair of the sub-group are keen to improve CC-er representation, but nobody I am aware of has applied. It would be great if someone suitable would come forward - is there any "qualifying" person reading this prepared to apply ?

 

As it happens, I don't think I'm expecting more than a possible "state of play" update on the topic of winter moorings. I don't think the sub-group has any remit in what I would expect to be national decisions. Anyway the feedback I have heard is that the final decisions about 2015/2016 are not going to be taken for a while yet - is that your understanding, please?

 

You may be surprised to learn that there is strong support within the sub-group the winter moorings be retained in much last years form though, from people not always supportive of the CC-ers cause. The fact that winter moorings have generated significant revenue for CRT is seen as a very strong positive, and seems to go some way to placate those who seem to feel that CC-ers are "getting for nothing what we have to pay for". (I stress the latter is not a view I can ever get my brain around, but, as you know, it is a regularly stated opinion).

Alan can not comment on ccers not wishing to join your group but if I use myself as an example it would be difficult as I am moving from one end of the country to the other.

I am glad that we seem.to placate some in your group I will sleep easy tonight. I should have said my comments were not aimed at your group but my frustration at Richard Parry (Mr Always open to discuss) and CRT at the fact that they do not wish to engage with ccers over Winter Moorings. Maybe I need to plant myself inside The Three Horseshoes (Parry's Rest) To my very simple mind it would make sense to consult with the user's but no we are simply ignored but still discussed. Myself and Steve invested a lot of time and money going to meetings to find a solution to WM that CRT were simply unable to come up with themselves. We are treated like shit

 

No,

 

Unfortunately these groups are not open to being observed by those not members of them. I recall that it was asked in the past if people could observe the main partnership meetings, and it seemed that overall CRT were not minded to allow it. Someone may be able to find the thread where the whole idea was mooted? I imagine CRT's attitude towards a partnership sub-group would bbe no different from the main partnership meetings, but you could always try asking them.

In all fairness CRT were open to it during the time Vince Moran was in charge it was the Partnerships that were against. I was the one that asked Vince at a meeting and he felt it was good idea

Edited June 19, 2015 by cotswoldsman

[alan_fincher]

Maybe I need to plant myself inside The Three Horseshoes (Parry's Rest)

 

If you want to find the man you might do better at the "Three Locks"!

 

EDIT:

 

Serious question John......

 

Anybody can see that you have very much "lost the faith" on trying to work pro-actively with CRT, after your enormous optimism early on in the process.

 

I can understand that, and more and more can see the same in other early supporters who now feel regularly frustrated.

 

So what do you think we should do? Do we simply stop trying to influence them at all, or, (assuming we are not completely worn down by the process, and are prepared to try), do we keep chipping away at it by whatever corridors of communication we still have.

 

As I say, serious, honest, open question - I don't know the answer myself, but the one thing I personally genuinely believe is that if they wear us all down to the point we all withdraw, it certainly isn't going to be good for inland boaters and boating generally.

Edited June 19, 2015 by alan_fincher

[cotswoldsman]

 

If you want to find the man you might do better at the "Three Locks"!

 

EDIT:

 

Serious question John......

 

Anybody can see that you have very much "lost the faith" on trying to work pro-actively with CRT, after your enormous optimism early on in the process.

 

I can understand that, and more and more can see the same in other early supporters who now feel regularly frustrated.

 

So what do you think we should do? Do we simply stop trying to influence them at all, of, (assuming we are not completely worn down by the process, and are prepared to try), do we keep chipping away at it by whatever corridors of communication we still have.

 

As I say, serious, honest, open question - I don't know the answer myself, but the one thing I personally genuinely believe is that if they wear us all down to the point we all withdraw, it certainly isn't going to be good for inland boaters and boating generally.

Thought I would make it a pub crawl between Parry's Rest and The Three Horseshoes

I am just on my way back from Poole and doing this on phone while having fag breaks so will think and answer your question when I return to boat

Edited June 19, 2015 by cotswoldsman

[alan_fincher]

Thought I would make it a pub crawl between Parry's Rest and The Three Locks.

 

Better do it on foot, not by boat though.....

 

Alledgedly if you go by boat, you are unlikely to be able to moor up near any of the pubs!

Edited June 19, 2015 by alan_fincher

[pearley]

The problem of getting CCers to sit on these committees is not going to be easy. As John said, if are are cruising we could be at the other end of the country and, with most of us not having cars, it is virtually impossible to attend meetings.

 

Since Christmas we passed through 3 CRT regions and at present are on EA waters. Wecrely on our bus pass or our bikes to take us any distance from the boat. Perhaps CRT could offer expenses then we could hire a car!

[cotswoldsman]

If you want to find the man you might do better at the "Three Locks"!

 

EDIT:

 

Serious question John......

 

Anybody can see that you have very much "lost the faith" on trying to work pro-actively with CRT, after your enormous optimism early on in the process.

 

I can understand that, and more and more can see the same in other early supporters who now feel regularly frustrated.

So what do you think we should do? Do we simply stop trying to influence them at all, or, (assuming we are not completely worn down by the process, and are prepared to try), do we keep chipping away at it by whatever corridors of communication we still have.

 

As I say, serious, honest, open question - I don't know the answer myself, but the one thing I personally genuinely believe is that if they wear us all down to the point we all withdraw, it certainly isn't going to be good for inland boaters and boating generally.

Alan I have given this a lot of thought as I have been driving and I guess as you might expect I am struggling for an answer at present as I am rather angry about the way I and others have been ignored over WM, so maybe just as well I am struggling.

I know you and many others have tried to engage with CRT and seen no results, now that might be because we have high expectations compared to CRT's rather low expectations, maybe we think that boaters are more important than CRT do, but then they seem to do a lot of things that effect boaters and make no sense to most.

I guess you and others have to decide is it good use of your time to talk to an organisation that simply do not wish to listen unless it comes from the chosen few and not sure about you but I certainly am not one of the chosen few!!

We are dealing with an organisation that just lives day by day without any clear purpose. I struggle to see anything that is better now than it was under BW but again that might be due to my expectations. I do however see things that cause me great concern. I struggle to know who is running the canals, is it the Trustees who I met recently, (well the ones that turned up) is it Richard Parry? Or is it run by the chosen few? Any organisation that lacks a clear structure is doomed to failure. We have 13 Waterways Partnerships that seem to have more and more influence. We have NAG a mixed group of ego centric people who are appointed by CRT (The chosen few) I would challenge anyone to name 3 Waterways Partnership Chairmen or 3 people on NAG. I think the associations try very hard but it is just a PR exercise for CRT I can not think of anything that has come out of those meetings that has happened in the real world. Lots of promises that are completly meaningless.

I really fear for the way things are going just a lot of change for the sake of change and that always is a sure sign of an organisation out of control. As soon as you disagree with something publicly you are sidelined and put on the naughty step. I suggested a long time ago that we should have an elected council of boaters made up of all types of boaters that could meet regularly with CRT after trying to get the views of boater, but this was deemed a bad idea, I guess the idea of boaters representing boaters was considered dangerous.

Anyway I have rambled but Alan you have to do what you think best and I guess it depends on your staying power or if you genuinely think you can influence CRT in any way. As for me well I shall just continue to be a voice now in the wilderness a sort of "Billy No Mates" as far as CRT the non listening organisation is concerned.

my legacy will be the Winter Moorings before CRT tinkered. Boaters Buddies, a series of what were considered fairly successful boaters meetings before Richard Parry decided to take them over and turned them into a mass PR exercise that just turned into a complete shambles.

Edited June 19, 2015 by cotswoldsman

[cotswoldsman]

The problem of getting CCers to sit on these committees is not going to be easy. As John said, if are are cruising we could be at the other end of the country and, with most of us not having cars, it is virtually impossible to attend meetings.

Since Christmas we passed through 3 CRT regions and at present are on EA waters. Wecrely on our bus pass or our bikes to take us any distance from the boat. Perhaps CRT could offer expenses then we could hire a car!

Again not aimed at Alan.

This is just tokenism do you really think CRT want to listen to boaters let alone cc'ers? Just look at the names that appear on the meeting notes I do genuinely think Alan tris to bat for the boaters, but who else on that group do you think cares a fig about boaters? The agenda is set by CRT and from what Alan has reported in the past it just seems a way CRT can try and justify consultation. What the he'll does John Best know about boating and that could be said about all the Partnership Chairmen

[koukouvagia]

but who else on that group do you think cares a fig about boaters?

What about David Daines?

[cotswoldsman]

What about David Daines?

Have you read the minutes from the meetings?

Maybe they do not reflect everything but it is all I have to go on

[Tuscan]

Interestingly I met with one of the boating members of the NE partnership last week and he was very firm that they set the agenda on meetings to discuss boating matters and not CRT. I wonder why the SE partnership sub group does not set the agenda of things they want to discuss rather than having the agenda set for them.

 

I sympathise with both Alan and Johns view. It would appear if you have enough meetings with enough groups be it local or national you will find find a group that supports your proposed change and then you can claim consensus.

[cotswoldsman]

I think that is because the NE boater group is boater led and actually came about from User Group meetings

[alan_fincher]

The problem of getting CCers to sit on these committees is not going to be easy. As John said, if are are cruising we could be at the other end of the country and, with most of us not having cars, it is virtually impossible to attend meetings.

 

Since Christmas we passed through 3 CRT regions and at present are on EA waters. Wecrely on our bus pass or our bikes to take us any distance from the boat. Perhaps CRT could offer expenses then we could hire a car!

Yes,

 

Of course you make a valid point, and given that one is really committing to serving a year or two on such a group, anybody who is going to be based at one end of the canal network now, but at the other in (say) 6 months time, is probably not really the best candidate to serve on a group that is specific to one CRT region.

 

That said, I believe we have one of the highest overall numbers of CC-ers of any region, and the honest reality is that a very large proportion of them venture only rarely off the waterways of this region, if at all. Many limit their CC-ing to a corridor of the GU, for instance, that is well served by railway stations all the way from about Watford (Herts) to Northampton and Long Buckby. The CRT Milton Keynes office, the usual venue for sub-group meetings, is actually in the same building as Milton Keynes station, so this has to be one of the very easiest of venues to get to from many parts of the GU.

 

Also people in the group are not averse to providing lifts from canals in the region. I have availed myself of this when I'm boating, rather than at home.

[alan_fincher]

I do genuinely think Alan tris to bat for the boaters, but who else on that group do you think cares a fig about boaters?

 

The two who in their time spoke out most strongly, (apart from me of course! ), were the two CC-ers, both of whom stepped down. Had we still got either, (or preferably both!), I would be far happier with the make up of the group. I would dearly like another one to take up the challenge, particularly if people are going to suggest that those of us with a home mooring cannot properly support the position of those who do not, (although in practice I continue to have a damn good try to!).

[cotswoldsman]

 

The two who in their time spoke out most strongly, (apart from me of course! ), were the two CC-ers, both of whom stepped down. Had we still got either, (or preferably both!), I would be far happier with the make up of the group. I would dearly like another one to take up the challenge, particularly if people are going to suggest that those of us with a home mooring cannot properly support the position of those who do not, (although in practice I continue to have a damn good try to!).

In most matters I do not think ccers need individual representation I do still hang onto the concept we are all boaters together. For example most of the stuff for your next meeting has an impact on all boaters. For me it is things like WM that require input from ccers so I am left wondering why it is not discussed with ccers and this is the type of stuff that makes ccers think CRT have an anti ccer agenda. I can maybe understand your group discussing the effects of WM on places like Berkhamsted.

[pandajulienne]

The trade boat exemption is that until the 1st Sept 2015, a trade boat can moor at Stoke Bruene , Foxton and Thrupp for 4 days at weekends without falling foul of overstaying. This ends on the 1st Sept 2015. Originally this was limited to 2 trade boats only at one time, but CRT done away with the 2 trade boat limit. At a recent meeting with Matthew Symonds it was stated that CRT could not re-issue the RWM permits because some boaters stayed in one place for up to 5 months and this contravened the council planning laws. We were also told that they would do away with all winter moorings but this was lies and I have it in writing that they will go back to the old scheme of a few designated spots.

[cotswoldsman]

But with the RWM or as it is called General Towpath Winter Mooring boaters were allowed to stay in one place for 5 months. Yes rumour does have it they are going to do away with them

[Mike Todd]

The trade boat exemption is that until the 1st Sept 2015, a trade boat can moor at Stoke Bruene , Foxton and Thrupp for 4 days at weekends without falling foul of overstaying. This ends on the 1st Sept 2015. Originally this was limited to 2 trade boats only at one time, but CRT done away with the 2 trade boat limit. At a recent meeting with Matthew Symonds it was stated that CRT could not re-issue the RWM permits because some boaters stayed in one place for up to 5 months and this contravened the council planning laws. We were also told that they would do away with all winter moorings but this was lies and I have it in writing that they will go back to the old scheme of a few designated spots.

It would be helpful to obtain an authoritative view on the aspect of planning laws.My understanding is that defining residential use is not clear cut but that 5 months does not reach such a realistic threshold. It has been stated before (although I don't see how it comes into the equation for towpaths which pre-date the planning laws by a long mile) I suspect it is an attempt at a smokescreen which has been used before on all sides (not just BW/CRT by any means). Future discussion might be more fruitful if this matter were put beyond debate.

[cotswoldsman]

There has been some comment on CWDF that people do not know what is being discussed in this sub-group. This is the agenda I have recently received for the meeting next Monday.

 

(Before anybody asks, I don't yet know what "Trade Boat Exemption" refers to - perhaps someone can enlighten me before the meeting?)

 

 

AGENDA

 

Title: South East Boating Sub-Group

 

Date: 22nd June 2015

 

Attendees

Members John Best (JB), Lynda Payton (LP), James Griffin (JG), Alan Wildman (AW), Alan Fincher (AF), David Daines (DD)

CRT Staff - Matthew Symonds (MS), Vicky Martin (VM), Hannah Roe (HR), Sam Anderson-Brown (SA)

Apologies

David Cook (DC), Judy Clegg (JC)

 

1. Welcome and introductions Vicky Martin, David Cook & Cathy Court (joining in September) LP

2. Declarations of Interest

3. Vicky Martin an opportunity to meet the new South East Waterway Manager VM

4. Notes from the previous meeting/Matters arising LP

5. Trade Boat Exemption SA

 

6. South East Waterway 10 Year Plan JB/VM

 

7. Visitor Moorings updates MS

- Existing sites (Thrupp, Foxton Locks, Stoke Bruerne)

- New sites (Oxford, Banbury)

- Other sites being monitored (Batchworth, Berkhamsted, Braunston, Cowroast, Marsworth)

- Changes to trade boat conditions

- Soulbury Three Locks

 

8. Giffard Park Quiet Zone Proposal MS

 

9. Winter Mooring 2015/16 MS

10. Customer Service Standard Update VM

 

11. AOB All

 

12. Dates for future meetings:

Alan any chance you are going to share with us what was discussed 3 days ago? All very well letting us know what you plan to discuss but in my case far more interested in what was discussed

[David Schweizer]

Alan any chance you are going to share with us what was discussed 3 days ago? All very well letting us know what you plan to discuss but in my case far more interested in what was discussed

 

I suspect that Alan and Cath are busy getting Sickle and Flamingo to Braunston at the moment, his posting over the last few days has been very sparse so i suspect he has not got a good connection. I PM'd him yesterday, and have not had a reply yet, which is unusual.