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Increased Visitor moorings????? in Leeds


Robbo

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Nicks post was quite logical and if you disagree with it, then discuss it in an adult manner without making snide comments against him. If this "rot" was left to grow, new forum members might feel it best not to post something...

Personally, my feeling is that they should have 7 day moorings in Leeds to allow people who have travelled from far off like Manchester on the L&L, at least some time to enjoy the city...expecting them to leave again after 48hrs is sad. I moored in the main river section...which is unsafe, but had to be done.

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Dragging this back onto topic.

 

I don't think I would be happy mooring at Knostrop. We did the Miller Homes development next door and it just never really seemed like a nice or convenient place to moor. There were plans to add some floating pontoon moorings in the redundant arm next to the flood lock but they never came to fruition presumably because of a lack of interest in them.

 

We have so far only visited Leeds once and then we moored in what was at that time Clarence Dock. The moorings all along the A&C and SSYN were busy but we wouldn't have expected any less as it was Easter week.

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Nicks post was quite logical and if you disagree with it, then discuss it in an adult manner without making snide comments against him. If this "rot" was left to grow, new forum members might feel it best not to post something...

You crack me up Dean. Edited by DHutch
Formal Warning given
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No one ever moors at Knotstop, Brewery Wharf

We've moored at both those. Knostrop when we came through the lock on a Friday afternoon to find the flood gates closed because rain was forecast - it was and it did. And at Brewery Wharf when the museum was still there.

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You crack me up Dean.

 

Apparently it's OK to make wild and inaccurate statements that fit your agenda about something you know nothing to wind people up but not to point this out.

 

I'm obviously missing something in the forum rules.

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Dragging this back onto topic.

 

I don't think I would be happy mooring at Knostrop. We did the Miller Homes development next door and it just never really seemed like a nice or convenient place to moor. There were plans to add some floating pontoon moorings in the redundant arm next to the flood lock but they never came to fruition presumably because of a lack of interest in them.

 

We have so far only visited Leeds once and then we moored in what was at that time Clarence Dock. The moorings all along the A&C and SSYN were busy but we wouldn't have expected any less as it was Easter week.

Knotsrop was a place we once moored for a day but is not somewhere we would have ok about mooring overnight. We never had any problem it just never had a 'good' feel about it.

 

As for time limiting moorings around those parts it does seem an unneeded intervention. It does bring them Ito line with the time limits further East on the A&CN though but these too in the main are time limited for no real good reason too.

 

Bonkers......

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We stayed at Knostrop for 4 nights because they didn't open the gates until Tuesday but had no trouble and we weren't concerned. It was Feb/Mar though so perhaps too cold for people to come out at night.

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We live in Leeds and I can understand people feeling iffy about staying at Knostrop overnight. When we headed home a couple of years ago from our usual mooring on the Ashby we stayed over at Thwaites Mill, which is safe and just east of Knostrop. It's also an interesting place to visit if you're interested in industrial heritage.

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Perhaps you should start reading what you have written before posting. If nothing else, it may save you from having to explain what you "really" meant. frusty.gif

I think he's got an app that just regurgitates this stuff, its always the same, just a different random assortment of words.

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I don't really have a clear sense of what "sides" are taken on what issues by some of the contributors to this thread, but at the risk of finding myself tarred with some brush or other I'm going to have to stick up for nicknorman in this instance. He didn't make any statements about the availability of moorings in Leeds, so the question of whether those statements are accurate or otherwise does not arise. He just offered an explanation as to how the CRT might - that's might - square a claim that the availability of VMs has been increased at location X, with the fact that the number of such moorings at location X has not in fact increased. Change a 14 day limit to a 7 day limit at a given spot and you have, they might argue, effectively doubled the number of mooring "slots" available to visiting boats.

 

That might well not be what they mean, but if it is, nicknorman has surely done us all a favour by alerting us to a sneaky bit of logic that might be used by the CRT to dress up unnecessary restrictions to lengths of stay as "increases in visitor moorings", to the detriment of all boaters wishing to spend longer than a few days in a given area.

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I don't really have a clear sense of what "sides" are taken on what issues by some of the contributors to this thread, but at the risk of finding myself tarred with some brush or other I'm going to have to stick up for nicknorman in this instance. He didn't make any statements about the availability of moorings in Leeds, so the question of whether those statements are accurate or otherwise does not arise. He just offered an explanation as to how the CRT might - that's might - square a claim that the availability of VMs has been increased at location X, with the fact that the number of such moorings at location X has not in fact increased. Change a 14 day limit to a 7 day limit at a given spot and you have, they might argue, effectively doubled the number of mooring "slots" available to visiting boats.

 

That might well not be what they mean, but if it is, nicknorman has surely done us all a favour by alerting us to a sneaky bit of logic that might be used by the CRT to dress up unnecessary restrictions to lengths of stay as "increases in visitor moorings", to the detriment of all boaters wishing to spend longer than a few days in a given area.

Thanks magictime, yes the forum dynamics can be a bit complicated but Jenlyn, Chris Pink/Alf Roberts/Dave Clinton and to a lesser extent, Cotswoldman all have "history" with me (and vice versa) so tend to look for arguments and put-downs where in reality none exist. We don't take it too seriously though. From my point of view I just see it as them making themselves look a bit silly as, to the impartial observer such as yourself, they were just making an obvious and massive storm in a tiny teacup. But never mind, the forum would be the duller without them.

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Will have to email CRT for the data on number of visitors as Richard Parry has stated no more changes to moorings without data to back up the changes

I have received a reply from Ian Rogers he has not supplied the data yet to justify these changes but has passed on to the local manager Jon Horsfall to send me the data. At least I think that is what he has done

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I have received a reply from Ian Rogers he has not supplied the data yet to justify these changes but has passed on to the local manager Jon Horsfall to send me the data. At least I think that is what he has done

Data should be clear enough, given the replies by some here. No one moors there lol.

Did he say it was under parry's "national strategy", or is this yet another pint with chicken and chips in the basket deal?

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Dear all, thank you for the various comments and feedback on the new visitor moorings in Leeds. As the project leader I clearly don't think we are all bonkers!

 

The catalyst for this was two fold: firstly comments made at user meetings and elsewhere (including on this forum) regarding the need for increased availability of visitor moorings (and evidence from casual observation), and secondly the work being done by BW (now CRT) with Aire Action Leeds as part of its 'Destination Leeds' project. This latter is to increase the numbers of people visiting and enjoying the Leeds waterways (the east end of the L&L and the west end of the A&CN). The Trust's North East Partnership took this on board and I commented that in order to attract more visitors to and interest in the waterways it would be a good first step to attract more animation on the water - in plain English boats of all kinds, and to encourage boaters to stop in Leeds and enjoy the great city. I then commented that in order to make this work an increase in visitor mooring provision should be our first step and as a result i was given the job of leading a sub group to take it forward. The group comprises all boaters - myself, and two others from the Partnership and two from outside - all volunteers of course. My own interest in the waterways goes back more than 50 years, and I have operated freight and leisure craft in the area for over 40 years ()including the last freight craft to operate right through Leeds centre) so I know the waterways well.

 

 

It seemed to us that the best approach initially would be a 'quick win' so we looked at moorings and potential moorings that could be signed as visitor moorings, both those controlled by CRT and those in private ownership.

 

I should mention that the work has been carried out and, as local users will have noticed, moorings made available (some quite a while ago) prior to the introduction of the new moorings policy (the private mooring at Brewery being the last to be introduced possibly just after the policy was announced). As far as usage is concerned - its' a bit 'chicken and egg' - we wanted to be proactive and encourage use rather wait for complaints of overcrowding etc - but I walk this length of the waterway quite often and at busy times the available visitor moorings in Leeds Dock are often full.

 

The reason for the delayed announcement was we were waiting for arrangements to be firmed up at Brewery wharf bearing in mind the Flood Alleviation Scheme, and we'd hoped to have some other news as well - this latter has been delayed so I asked that the announcement be put out now. Actually it tied in well with the forthcoming Waterfront festival and this probably helped to generate some welcome publicity for the Festival locally,.

 

Taking the locations in order coming upstream: there is potential for a longer duration (7 or 14 day) visitor mooring in the weir stream below Knostrop lock, but it does need dredging which is quite expensive - it might be done in connection with another potential dredging programme nearby. The mooring above Knostrop lock used to be used by freight craft, but as the proposed freight terminal is to be below Knostrop lock it's not really needed and so I got ready agreement to sign this up as a fairly long stay mooring - there is rubbish disposal here too which is useful, Buses are handy for Leeds centre, and the mooring is also convenient for Thwaite Mill museum which, as stated, is well worth a visit (visitor moorings there are charged for).. This is one mooring that already existed and the only one to have length stay reduced) but hopefully signage and promotion will encourage greater use - it could be made 14 day if there is demand..

The facilities pontoon was rather longer than needed (I never saw more than two boats on it using the facilities and it seemed a waste of a mooring) and it was short stay so we made the top end a visitor mooring (handy for the facilities!), likewise the lock landing at Leeds Lock tail which was big enough for a 500 tonner (well almost)! I take the point about a rare visit by a boat longer than say 60 ft, and will have another look, but having owned and operated two 90 ft barges I don't think it would be a problem hanging an 86 ft boat on to the top end. In reality the thing to do would be just to go straight into the lock lower chamber as the bottom gates are always open - if another boat were coming down you could use the landing of course.

In response to feedback from users we increased the stay time at Fearns Wharf.

Brewery wharf mooring is in private hands but the property company was happy to accommodate us and we hope there will be some facilities e.g. water and rubbish disposal there in due course.

As far as the L&L is concerned this is beyond the remit of the NE Partnership but the NW Waterways manager was happy for us to take an interest and work with her staff to improve the facilities there. We have recommended that 7 and 14 day moorings be retained and/or made available in addition to the shorter stay ones. It's great the mooring charge in the arms has been dropped. We also hope that a pump out facility will be provided below Office Lock.

Other potential visitor moorings include the Asda 'let down' (being prepared by Canal Connections) and possibly KPMG by Victoria Bridge.

We are discussing additional visitor moorings in Leeds Dock (aka New Dock/Clarence Dock) but this needs third party agreement and funding - we are hopeful!

This project is 'work in progress' and we are happy to take on board comments and suggestions. Nothing is set in stone. Please either contact me direct or via Fearns wharf. I'm more than happy to meet local users on site to discuss.

Kind regards

 

David L

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Too much info. take in on my phone given your pretty comprehensive response.

 

I will pick up a proper response when back home at the end of the month.

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Dear all, thank you for the various comments and feedback on the new visitor moorings in Leeds. As the project leader I clearly don't think we are all bonkers!

 

The catalyst for this was two fold: firstly comments made at user meetings and elsewhere (including on this forum) regarding the need for increased availability of visitor moorings (and evidence from casual observation), and secondly the work being done by BW (now CRT) with Aire Action Leeds as part of its 'Destination Leeds' project. This latter is to increase the numbers of people visiting and enjoying the Leeds waterways (the east end of the L&L and the west end of the A&CN). The Trust's North East Partnership took this on board and I commented that in order to attract more visitors to and interest in the waterways it would be a good first step to attract more animation on the water - in plain English boats of all kinds, and to encourage boaters to stop in Leeds and enjoy the great city. I then commented that in order to make this work an increase in visitor mooring provision should be our first step and as a result i was given the job of leading a sub group to take it forward. The group comprises all boaters - myself, and two others from the Partnership and two from outside - all volunteers of course. My own interest in the waterways goes back more than 50 years, and I have operated freight and leisure craft in the area for over 40 years ()including the last freight craft to operate right through Leeds centre) so I know the waterways well.

 

 

It seemed to us that the best approach initially would be a 'quick win' so we looked at moorings and potential moorings that could be signed as visitor moorings, both those controlled by CRT and those in private ownership.

 

I should mention that the work has been carried out and, as local users will have noticed, moorings made available (some quite a while ago) prior to the introduction of the new moorings policy (the private mooring at Brewery being the last to be introduced possibly just after the policy was announced). As far as usage is concerned - its' a bit 'chicken and egg' - we wanted to be proactive and encourage use rather wait for complaints of overcrowding etc - but I walk this length of the waterway quite often and at busy times the available visitor moorings in Leeds Dock are often full.

 

The reason for the delayed announcement was we were waiting for arrangements to be firmed up at Brewery wharf bearing in mind the Flood Alleviation Scheme, and we'd hoped to have some other news as well - this latter has been delayed so I asked that the announcement be put out now. Actually it tied in well with the forthcoming Waterfront festival and this probably helped to generate some welcome publicity for the Festival locally,.

 

Taking the locations in order coming upstream: there is potential for a longer duration (7 or 14 day) visitor mooring in the weir stream below Knostrop lock, but it does need dredging which is quite expensive - it might be done in connection with another potential dredging programme nearby. The mooring above Knostrop lock used to be used by freight craft, but as the proposed freight terminal is to be below Knostrop lock it's not really needed and so I got ready agreement to sign this up as a fairly long stay mooring - there is rubbish disposal here too which is useful, Buses are handy for Leeds centre, and the mooring is also convenient for Thwaite Mill museum which, as stated, is well worth a visit (visitor moorings there are charged for).. This is one mooring that already existed and the only one to have length stay reduced) but hopefully signage and promotion will encourage greater use - it could be made 14 day if there is demand..

The facilities pontoon was rather longer than needed (I never saw more than two boats on it using the facilities and it seemed a waste of a mooring) and it was short stay so we made the top end a visitor mooring (handy for the facilities!), likewise the lock landing at Leeds Lock tail which was big enough for a 500 tonner (well almost)! I take the point about a rare visit by a boat longer than say 60 ft, and will have another look, but having owned and operated two 90 ft barges I don't think it would be a problem hanging an 86 ft boat on to the top end. In reality the thing to do would be just to go straight into the lock lower chamber as the bottom gates are always open - if another boat were coming down you could use the landing of course.

In response to feedback from users we increased the stay time at Fearns Wharf.

Brewery wharf mooring is in private hands but the property company was happy to accommodate us and we hope there will be some facilities e.g. water and rubbish disposal there in due course.

As far as the L&L is concerned this is beyond the remit of the NE Partnership but the NW Waterways manager was happy for us to take an interest and work with her staff to improve the facilities there. We have recommended that 7 and 14 day moorings be retained and/or made available in addition to the shorter stay ones. It's great the mooring charge in the arms has been dropped. We also hope that a pump out facility will be provided below Office Lock.

Other potential visitor moorings include the Asda 'let down' (being prepared by Canal Connections) and possibly KPMG by Victoria Bridge.

We are discussing additional visitor moorings in Leeds Dock (aka New Dock/Clarence Dock) but this needs third party agreement and funding - we are hopeful!

This project is 'work in progress' and we are happy to take on board comments and suggestions. Nothing is set in stone. Please either contact me direct or via Fearns wharf. I'm more than happy to meet local users on site to discuss.

Kind regards

 

David L

I just ain't getting this. Richard parry says one thing, and everyone else is doing what they want. Lol. Is this for real??

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Am a bit confused were these changes put in place using the national framework for visitor moorings as agreed earlier this year or not? If not what was the point of the consultation. This is not to say the end result would not have been the same , I don't know the area.

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Am a bit confused were these changes put in place using the national framework for visitor moorings as agreed earlier this year or not? If not what was the point of the consultation. This is not to say the end result would not have been the same , I don't know the area.

Yes it is all rather confusing. I do know the area and these are not what you would class as popular moorings and fail to understand why the time limits have been introduced on certainly 2 of them. I am awaiting to receive the data that justify the reduction in time limits. I did attend a boaters meeting in Leeds where it was suggested that upgrading the moorings to make them more attractive might encourage more boaters to stay but no mention was made of only wanting boaters to stay for shorter periods. I find it all rather confusing unless Leeds is no longer recognised as being part of a national system and has declared independence under Osborne's Northern Powerhouse scheme

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Am a bit confused were these changes put in place using the national framework for visitor moorings as agreed earlier this year or not? If not what was the point of the consultation. This is not to say the end result would not have been the same , I don't know the area.

I think this is the relevant section of David's post:

 

I should mention that the work has been carried out and, as local users will have noticed, moorings made available (some quite a while ago) prior to the introduction of the new moorings policy (the private mooring at Brewery being the last to be introduced possibly just after the policy was announced).

 

I don't know the area that well (though we've moored in Leeds more than once), and maybe because of that I'm struggling to work out which of these are completely new moorings - i.e. places where you could not previously moor a boat, but now can - and which are places where you could previously moor a boat, but which have now been re-designated as "visitor moorings" (with time limits attached).

 

Is this about right?

 

Above Knostrop Lock - previously existing mooring, now designated visitor mooring with shorter time limit

 

Facilities pontoon - previously the whole thing was short stay for using services only, now part of it is a visitor mooring

 

Lock landing - previously was (implicitly) for use of boats going through lock only, now part of it is a visitor mooring

 

Fearns Wharf - previously existing visitor mooring, length of stay increased

 

Brewery Wharf - previously not available as in private hands, now available as a visitor mooring

 

Granary Wharf pontoon moorings (x 6-8?) - previously private charged-for moorings, now CRT visitor moorings

 

If that is indeed the situation (and apologies if I'm misunderstanding anything), it sounds as if the number of moorings available has indeed increased quite a bit, and the maximum length of stay has only been reduced at one spot.

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Seems everything is going a bit pear shaped at the moment.

 

wednesday, 17 june 2015 08:51

FOLLOWING a Canal & River Trust Council meeting in March, a review of attendance levels is to be carried out, writes Allan Richards.

This is because over a third of Council members failed to attend the meeting held at Dudley in the West Midlands. The trustees blame nominated council members and have decided that a review is to be carried out by the CaRT's Trustees & Council Appointments Committee.

Non attendees—Council members

Just 22 out of 34 Council members attended its last Council meeting. Council members who did not attend were:

Alison Ward, Welsh Local Government
Charlotte Atkins, Chair Central Shires Partnership
Charles Trotman, Country Land & Business Association
Chris Bailey, Employee Representative
Chloe Donovan, Co-optee, National Council for Voluntary Youth Services
Mark Lang, Chair All Wales Partnership
Mark Penny Chair North East Partnership
Martyn Brunt, Sustrans
Paul Owen, British Canoeing
Rafid Al Khaddar, Society for the Environment
Tony Matts, Boating Business Representative
Walter Menzies, Chair Manchester & Pennine Partnership

Trustees failed to attend

However, the minutes record just four trustees found the time to attend the full Council meeting with one attending part of it. What the minutes don't record is that six trustees—Jane Cotton, Manish Chande, Ben Gordon, Steve Shine, Simon Thurley and Allan Leighton—failed to attend.

A poorer attendance record than Council members!

Nothing new

Poor attendance at Council meetings is nothing new. At the previous Council meeting in September 2014 which included CaRT's second AGM, about one third of members and half the trustees failed to attend.

Yet CaRT's trustees criticised Council members for their poor attendance, but should surely put their own house in order regarding attendance before criticising the Council members.

Better still, perhaps the trustees should review if the Council is making any meaningful contribution to the governance of the Trust.

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... in fact, if the pontoons at Granary Wharf are now available free of charge, that changes the picture quite dramatically from when we were last in Leeds a couple of years ago. As far as we could see, they were about your only option in terms of truly convenient city centre moorings (unless you could find a space on the well-occupied bank opposite), and it's a nice, secure-feeling spot with a service block and room for maybe six to eight boats. A city break based there would be a considerably more attractive proposition without the nightly charge!

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... in fact, if the pontoons at Granary Wharf are now available free of charge, that changes the picture quite dramatically from when we were last in Leeds a couple of years ago. As far as we could see, they were about your only option in terms of truly convenient city centre moorings (unless you could find a space on the well-occupied bank opposite), and it's a nice, secure-feeling spot with a service block and room for maybe six to eight boats. A city break based there would be a considerably more attractive proposition without the nightly charge!

Yes have to agree on those that certainly will be a cost saver but one time when I was there and river was in flood they waived the charge. The ones above the lock were fine for extended stays

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Arrived in Leeds on the 9th. Only one boat at Granary wharf, so we joined them. We stayed two days/nights, during which a further three boats arrived down the canal. Unless an event is on, does it ever get really busy? Our average boat sightings of craft moving each day on the L&L was 4.

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