Narrowboat stuck in the humber

[Naughty Cal]

Sorry Naughty Cal - with all due respect this seems to be going from the sublime to the ridiculous and I can only suggest that we stay on topic, please, with boats going onto tidal waters, and not from them? There are definite concerns with regard to inexperienced boaters cruising tidal waters that we should not seek to ignore. Both historical and more current events prove this fact plus prove the necessity for knowledge on the part of the navigation authority for this venue. Because some have had uneventful trips does not mean that all will. Much is of course dependent upon the various heights of tides plus other weather conditions and of course correct timing at the locks.

And people taking responsibility for their own safety and actions.

 

CRT is a navigation authority not a rescue service.

[thunderbird]

Precisely. CRT is indeed a navigation authority and should therefore be fully aware of the dangers of our rivers and not seek to encourage boaters to use them without at the least full knowledgeable instruction being given. I have no doubt your boat is up tothe job but there are some narrowboats that are not, hence the Humber Rescue referring to engine burn outs and also to other unrelated incidents such as this latest grounding, and to the cost of rescue. My interest lies purely in safety for all using the Trent and Ouse, not just my own, and I am sorry if you have a problem with this. I most certainly don't.

 

The initial post on this topic would appear to have boater safety at heart, too. As for the boater in the recent grounding, he refers to 'raging waters' and to 'waves breaking over the bow of his boat'. Wind speed on that day was 10.4 though the speed of gusts at this time are not known. The problem according to this boater was the tide. CRT did I'm told ring him following the incident (possibly/ probably following criticism from Humber Rescue) to, he said, ask 'if lessons could be learned'.

Edited May 14, 2015 by thunderbird

[Naughty Cal]

Precisely. CRT is indeed a navigation authority and should therefore be fully aware of the dangers of our rivers and not seek to encourage boaters to use them without at the least full knowledgeable instruction being given. I have no doubt your boat is up tothe job but there are some narrowboats that are not, hence the Humber Rescue referring to engine burn outs and also to other unrelated incidents such as this latest grounding, and to the cost of rescue. My interest lies purely in safety for all using the Trent and Ouse, not just my own, and I am sorry if you have a problem with this. I most certainly don't.

 

The initial post on this topic would appear to have boater safety at heart, too. As for the boater in the recent grounding, he refers to 'raging waters' and to 'waves breaking over the bow of his boat'. Wind speed on that day was 10.4 though the speed of gusts at this time are not known. The problem according to this boater was the tide. CRT did I'm told ring him following the incident (possibly/ probably following criticism from Humber Rescue) to, he said, ask 'if lessons could be learned'.

What would you suggest CRT do?

[ditchcrawler]

The Broads Authority don't run a rescue service the Lifeboat does it. It does help if they know where you are.

 

Today

 

Great Yarmouth & Gorleston Inshore Lifeboat 'Seahorse IV' was launched at 1648 to reports of a person in the water on Breydon Water.
As the ILB headed up river the volunteer crew were updated by Humber Coastguard saying the person was on the River Bure. Once on the River Bure the ILB was informed that the casualty was at the Bearney Arms which is on the River Yare, The ILB turned around and headed for the Bearney Arms, With the Bearney Arms in sight the ILB was updated by Coastguards that the casulalty was at the Stracey Arms on the river Bure along with this information the crew were told that the casualty was safe and out of the water and the Lifeboat may stand down and return to station.

Had the ILB still been required it would of been approx 15 minutes before it would of arrived at the Stracey Arms from its position .It is always advised to know your location to allow any emergency service to make a quick and effective rescue,

[ditchcrawler]

From Facebook now its the Thames and RCR not EA

 

River Canal Rescue Engineers were dispatched to a grounded boat on a sand bank last night near Kings Lock on the River Thames. Our engineers did a fantastic job and got the boat off the bank in no time... Well Done Team!!!

[thunderbird]

'Please keep Barges (narrowboats)off Tidal Waters' - not my words but the words of Humber Rescue in an article in the Hull Daily Mail. The article says Humber Rescue's inshore lifeboat has been called out to three incidents on the Ouse near Goole in recent weeks.

 

In this article, and I quote:

'Founder member Dave Roberts told the Hull Daily Mail 'It is becoming a problem for us'. He also states 'Our message would be that these boats are built for canals. They are not meant for fast flowing tidal rivers like the Ouse'.

 

What should CRT do? Perhaps take notice and refrain from encouraging boaters to cruise these tidal waters?

[tagulablue]

For all it is worth, every time we have planned or ventured on to tidal waters we do several checks ... 1. we check with insurers.... 2 we check if a pilot available and we listen to all advice given.....3, we have boat serviced and fuel checked and cleaned if necessary. IF everything checks out and weather is appropriate then we go. If not we change course and take safe route back.

[frangar]

'Please keep Barges (narrowboats)off Tidal Waters' - not my words but the words of Humber Rescue in an article in the Hull Daily Mail. The article says Humber Rescue's inshore lifeboat has been called out to three incidents on the Ouse near Goole in recent weeks.

 

In this article, and I quote:

'Founder member Dave Roberts told the Hull Daily Mail 'It is becoming a problem for us'. He also states 'Our message would be that these boats are built for canals. They are not meant for fast flowing tidal rivers like the Ouse'.

 

What should CRT do? Perhaps take notice and refrain from encouraging boaters to cruise these tidal waters?

Many people are killed by cars...perhaps they should be banned. Many people die hill walking and climbing...let's stop that too. Stairs can also be fairly fatal....

 

Where do you fancy stopping?

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[Naughty Cal]

'Please keep Barges (narrowboats)off Tidal Waters' - not my words but the words of Humber Rescue in an article in the Hull Daily Mail. The article says Humber Rescue's inshore lifeboat has been called out to three incidents on the Ouse near Goole in recent weeks.

 

In this article, and I quote:

'Founder member Dave Roberts told the Hull Daily Mail 'It is becoming a problem for us'. He also states 'Our message would be that these boats are built for canals. They are not meant for fast flowing tidal rivers like the Ouse'.

 

What should CRT do? Perhaps take notice and refrain from encouraging boaters to cruise these tidal waters?

How do you suggest they do that?

 

You seem very sure that CRT should be doing more but you don't have many suggestions as to how they should do that or what they should be doing.

 

FWIW I don't see any reason why a properly prepared crew and boat can not make this trip safely, many hundreds do each year. It is usually the ill prepared that find themselves in trouble. You can't legislate for idiots.

[gazza]

page 2 of the MLC navigation notes.

 

Sage advice indeed

 

[Alan de Enfield]

From C&RTs T&Cs

 

The Boat must be fit for navigation on any Waterway where it is intended to be used.

 

You are responsible for assessing whether it is safe to use the Waterway in flood or strong stream conditions.

[Naughty Cal]

And from ABP Humber:

 

http://www.humber.com/Yachting_and_Leisure/Safety/

[thunderbird]

For all it is worth, every time we have planned or ventured on to tidal waters we do several checks ... 1. we check with insurers.... 2 we check if a pilot available and we listen to all advice given.....3, we have boat serviced and fuel checked and cleaned if necessary. IF everything checks out and weather is appropriate then we go. If not we change course and take safe route back.

If all were as sensible as you both CRT personnel at the sharp end and Humber Rescue would be delighted!

[thunderbird]

I note that the boat that grounded on the 5th May was cruising on a reasonably big tide, high water being 07.52 at Hull. and the speed of the ebb at Selby being increased considerably by the approximately three feet of fresh coming down the Ouse at the time adding to the gusty conditions. There is no doubt that the boater concerned was totally unprepared for the conditions he experienced, and I know he is happy to confirm this!

 

However when someone like you Naughty Cal, au fait with these waters and writing as an experienced boater had a problem entering Selby, actually hitting the gates, I have to ask if unless instruction is given (and easily found) how the inexperienced will cope?

 

Category c waters unlike our canals can relate in no way shape or form to 'an outdoor gym', rarely to a gentle cruise and regardless of whether I believe in personal responsibility or otherwise, I'm afraid there will always be those who, unless properly instructed, will find themselves

in need of (extremely expensive) rescue.

 

Interestingly I am advised that some boaters have asked for the lockies working hours at these locks and have been told 9.30 to 5.30 - both on the general CRT number and at an office local to these category c waters. Totally incorrect of course, something that I understand is now being dealt with. Communication is after all key.

Edited May 17, 2015 by thunderbird

[ditchcrawler]

Looks as if there is more information on this at Narrowboat world http://www.narrowboatworld.com/index.php/news-flash/8158-not-a-pleasurable-days-pleasure-boating

[David Mack]

Looks as if there is more information on this at Narrowboat world http://www.narrowboatworld.com/index.php/news-flash/8158-not-a-pleasurable-days-pleasure-boating

 

What a strange article! Pam Pickett tells us that the boater concerned made absolutely no effort to find out what is necessary to navigate a tidal waterway, and didn't make even the most basic provision for the safety of himself and his boat, but she then proceeds to blame CRT for what followed.

 

There's only so much anyone can do to protect a fool from his own folly, and this looks like a classic example!

[mark99]

 

What a strange article! Pam Pickett tells us that the boater concerned made absolutely no effort to find out what is necessary to navigate a tidal waterway, and didn't make even the most basic provision for the safety of himself and his boat, but she then proceeds to blame CRT for what followed.

 

There's only so much anyone can do to protect a fool from his own folly, and this looks like a classic example!

Tend to agree.

[larkshall]

And people taking responsibility for their own safety and actions.

 

CRT is a navigation authority not a rescue service.

I agree, have been up and down that stretch a few times. But I wouldn't do it in springs, or wind, and probably not alone on a NB.

[Tony Dunkley]

 

What a strange article! Pam Pickett tells us that the boater concerned made absolutely no effort to find out what is necessary to navigate a tidal waterway, and didn't make even the most basic provision for the safety of himself and his boat, but she then proceeds to blame CRT for what followed.

 

There's only so much anyone can do to protect a fool from his own folly, and this looks like a classic example!

 

What a strange post ! Who do you suggest that this man you've labelled as a fool should have used as the information source to " find out what is necessary to navigate a tidal waterway" . . . . . . I would be asking why the C&RT lock keepers didn't advise him against making the journey on that day due to the weather and water conditions and, in view of the man being so inexperienced on tidal rivers, to go at another time in the company of another boat.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[Phil Ambrose]

 

What a strange post ! Who do suggest that this man you've labelled as a fool should have used as the information source to " find out what is necessary to navigate a tidal waterway" . . . . . . I would be asking why the C&RT lock keepers didn't advise him against making the journey on that day due to the weather and water conditions and, in view of the man being so inexperienced on tidal rivers, to go at another time in the company of another boat.

He could have asked for advice here.

Phil

[Scholar Gypsy]

One thought from the Thames - as I prepare for my trip on the Trent in August.

 

As part of their 10 year vision work, there's quite a bit of thought going on by the PLA and partner organisations of various sorts on

• how to bring the considerable amount of guidance, circulars, notes and perspectives from previous river users (eg narrowboats, rowing eights, paddle boars, kayaks, cruisers, speedboats, barges, tugs, cruise liners etc etc) together in one place, simplifying it as much as possible, and
• how to make it more accessible both to the diligent visitor who wants to travel safely, and then in time to the less diligent.

I do think this will be a useful approach that can be adopted/adapted elsewhere, and that the PLA have the intent and resources to lead this work - as I say working with partners eg the Thames rowers, and making best use of digital channels. [Just to take a simple example, to check the PLA notices to mariners in advance of a trip takes me a good 10-15 minutes, to work out which ones will apply to your trip. Far better to have an interactive map which - when you input the date of travel - shows you which arches are closed etc etc, as is now done for railway timetables and road works, and CRT stoppages I think].

 

To take another somewhat extreme example, in my somewhat over thorough preparation for my Wash trip I have found about 30 useful sources of information. It shouldn't be impossible to publish them (my effort is here), but I guess the tricky bit is to keep this body of information (which I couldn't find anywhere else in one place) up to date, and avoid any liability issues (I have added some small print to the top of my page). Ownership is a bit awkward eg as for some of the waters involved there is no navigation or port authority at all (eg the Ouse from Denver to Kings Lynn).

[fanshaft]

 

What a strange post ! Who do you suggest that this man you've labelled as a fool should have used as the information source to " find out what is necessary to navigate a tidal waterway" . . . . . . I would be asking why the C&RT lock keepers didn't advise him against making the journey on that day due to the weather and water conditions and, in view of the man being so inexperienced on tidal rivers, to go at another time in the company of another boat.

 

I can now add a bit more information. The Naburn lock keeper has confirmed he did advise the boater concerned of the river conditions (Spring tide plus extra fresh) and asked him whether he still wished to proceed (which he did). . By chance another narrow boat followed down, crewed by a CRT Partnership member who confirmed that the lock keeper offered the same advice. That boat proceeded to Selby with no problems at all.

The NE Partnership will be organising an informal meeting of boaters and other interested parties (within and outrside the Trust) in the autumn to discuss ways of encouraging more boats to use and enjoy the Ouse safely, and what additional measures should (or should not) be intoduced.

In the meantime the Harbour Master (Stuart McKenzie) has pulled together all the Ouse Navigation advice information available and placed it on a page on the Trust's NE Waterways section of the CRT website. This includes lock and bridge phone numbers, VHF channels, and the 'boater's guide' produced some years ago by Stuart Sampson of NABO with help and advice from barge skippers/CBOA, and which mirrors similar guides available for the Trent and the Aire & Calder Navigation.

It's usually possible to arrange an informal pilot (probably an ex barge skipper or an experienced pleasure boater) to travel with any of a nervous disposition. My own first experience of the Ouse in the autumn of 1971 was a 'baptism of fire'. as I penned out of Selby lock on a big tide, straight into a wall of fog which didn't lift until I had passed the BOCM Mill. Coming down stream, rounding up at Selby was an interesting experience with a slow revving 'pop pop' (Ailsa Craig) in a heavy, well ballasted narrow boat passenger boat. A couple of years later i was taking loaded barges in and out of Selby lock, or (or bit later) coming up the river with sand for York etc and thinking nothing of it.

 

See Notices:

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/north-east-waterways

 

Kind regards

 

David

Edited June 28, 2015 by fanshaft

[Tony Dunkley]

 

I can now add a bit more information. The Naburn lock keeper has confirmed he did advise the boater concerned of the river conditions (Spring tide plus extra fresh) and asked him whether he still wished to proceed (which he did). . By chance another narrow boat followed down, crewed by a CRT Partnership member who confirmed that the lock keeper offered the same advice. That boat proceeded to Selby with no problems at all.

The NE Partnership will be organising an informal meeting of boaters and other interested parties (within and outrside the Trust) in the autumn to discuss ways of encouraging more boats to use and enjoy the Ouse safely, and what additional measures should (or should not) be intoduced.

In the meantime the Harbour Master (Stuart McKenzie) has pulled together all the Ouse Navigation advice information available and placed it on a page on the Trust's NE Waterways section of the CRT website. This includes lock and bridge phone numbers, VHF channels, and the 'boater's guide' produced some years ago by Stuart Sampson of NABO with help and advice from barge skippers/CBOA, and which mirrors similar guides available for the Trent and the Aire & Calder Navigation.

It's usually possible to arrange an informal pilot (probably an ex barge skipper or an experienced pleasure boater) to travel with any of a nervous disposition. My own first experience of the Ouse in the autumn of 1971 was a 'baptism of fire'. as I penned out of Selby lock on a big tide, straight into a wall of fog which didn't list until I had passed the BOCM Mill. Coming down stream, rounding up at Selby was an interesting experience with a slow revving 'pop pop' (Ailsa Craig) in a heavy, well ballasted narrow boat passenger boat. A couple of years later i was taking loaded barges in and out of Selby lock, or (or bit later) coming up the river with sand for York etc and thinking nothing of it.

 

See Notices:

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/north-east-waterways

 

Kind regards

 

David

 

I think it essential that the distinction is drawn between advice in respect of river conditions at the time, and advice to an individual on a particular boat not to make an unaccompanied passage in the conditions prevailing on that day.

Having spoken to the boater involved, I can say that being advised by the lock keeper of a 'Spring tide plus extra fresh' would have been utterly meaningless to him, whereas advice to the effect that he should stay put at Naburn and wait for another boat, on another day, to accompany him in conditions more suitable for someone new to tidal rivers, would have been understood and accepted.

Advice that would enable an experienced boater to know what to expect, and how to cope with it, is not adequate, appropriate or responsible advice to give to a novice.

If the Trust is going to encourage boaters accustomed only to the safe and still waters of narrow canals, on to the Ouse and lower Trent, then it must ensure that these boaters are appropriately advised, equipped and educated.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[Naughty Cal]

Where do you draw the line?

 

People have to start accepting responsibility for their own actions and their own safety.

[fanshaft]

 

I think it essential that the distinction is drawn between advice in respect of river conditions at the time, and advice to an individual on a particular boat not to make an unaccompanied passage in the conditions prevailing on that day.

Having spoken to the boater involved, I can say that being advised by the lock keeper of a 'Spring tide plus extra fresh' would have been utterly meaningless to him, whereas advice to the effect that he should stay put at Naburn and wait for another boat, on another day, to accompany him in conditions more suitable for someone new to tidal rivers, would have been understood and accepted.

Advice that would enable an experienced boater to know what to expect, and how to cope with it, is not adequate, appropriate or responsible advice to give to a novice.

If the Trust is going to encourage boaters accustomed only to the safe and still waters of narrow canals, on to the Ouse and lower Trent, then it must ensure that these boaters are appropriately advised, equipped and educated.

 

I have the greatest respect for Tony's skills, experience and knowledge but must, on this occasion, beg to differ!

 

The lock keeper told the boater that conditions were somewhat abnormal (the only conclusion that could be drawn from his advice) and if the boater had not understood what was being said it was for him to ask for advice ( as I did when I first came across the terms 'fresh' and'springs and neaps' etc). There is no way that a lock keeper can know what experience a boater has - in this case the boat had come up the river with no obvious navigational issues and for all the lock keeper knew he might have come across the Wash and via the Trent and had many year's experience! I exaggerate a little - but if a lock keeper has to determine whether a vessel should proceed or not it can only be on that which can be tested and verified so for example if the Trust requires an anchor, or charts, or VHF, or a boatmaster licence, two crew, etc. All these can easily be checked and 'ticked off' but a guess as to someone's expertise is not something I would wish to impose on anyone. The lock keeper asked the boater twice if he was happy to proceed and the answer was 'yes.

That said hopefully we will have a lively debate at the planned meeting but I would hate to be drawn towards undue restrictions - it is an Englishman's right to put to sea in a bathtub if he wishes!

 

Kind regards

 

David L

Edited June 28, 2015 by fanshaft