CC distance

[HOMETUNEDAVE]

Hi this is my first post, my boat should be built by the end of July and I wish to become a CCruise liveaboard I intend to travel the length of the river Stort and along the Lea navigation from Enfield to Hertford a total of approximately 28 miles do you think this will be far enough to comply with CaRTs CCruiser regulations,

Dave.

Edited May 3, 2015 by HOMETUNEDAVE

[MtB]

Welcome Dave.

 

What we think is irrelevant. It's what CRT think that counts.

 

I believe back in the day CRT considered a 'rivers only' licence limited someone on the Lee and Stort to that navigation so CCing it was ok, but that could change. I'd be inclined to ask them for guidance in writing if it is important to you.

 

A further point is their requirement for you to cruise regularly within your 'cruising range' (in this case the whole of the L&S). Cruising up and down once a year then hanging around ion the same place/area/whatever it is called this week for the remainder of the year will not cut it.

[Alan de Enfield]

Yes - No - Maybe

 

Do you plan to do this every week, or during a year ?

 

The only answer is to ask C&RT during you CC 'Interview'.

 

Any opinions on here are solely that and have no meaning or legal standing.

[MtB]

The only answer is to ask C&RT during you CC 'Interview'.

 

 

Good point about the interview. Dave, did you know you'll be interviewed by CRT before they grant you a CC licence? This is so they can make sure you understand the requirements.

 

Although I guess it will be a bit late by then as you'll have bought the boat.

[HOMETUNEDAVE]

I intend to move at least every 14 days between 2 and 5 miles each time, I know it is CaRT decision at the end of the day but there is a lot of knowledge and experience on this forum so I thought I would ask if when I have my CaRT interview what I have suggested as my movements would satisfy them,

Dave

[pearley]

Better to throw in a regular trip down to Limehouse as well, I would!d have thought.

[Alan de Enfield]

Whilst there is a lot of experience here, the area you propose to CC in is one of the most enforced areas in the country.

 

In that area ( London / South) the whole enforcement policy has changed in the last 12 months, and again within the last 6 months.

 

As an example the K&A has seen over 160 boaters enter enforcement.

[Arthur Brown]

Any interview may also take into account the likelyhood of you moving as promised. A simple question about where you work and how you get there from ..... somewhere on your route .. will tell them that you have (or not ) actually considered moving the boat.

[junior]

I'm pretty sure that CRT (or maybe it was BW) have previously said that anybody with a 'Rivers Only' licence can legitimately CC on the Lea & Stort. I'm sure even if you have a 'normal' licence then it will be ok based on the thinking if it's okay for one licence holder then it must be okay for another.

[system 4-50]

I intend to move at least every 14 days between 2 and 5 miles each time, I know it is CaRT decision at the end of the day but there is a lot of knowledge and experience on this forum so I thought I would ask if when I have my CaRT interview what I have suggested as my movements would satisfy them,

Dave

You may well be legal, I don't know, but to call moving 2 to 5 miles per fortnight navigating is a joke. In my book CCing is travelling such a distance as to make the use of a fixed mooring impractical. Clearly moving 2(!) to 5 miles could be done from a fixed mooring (and back for tea!). Best of luck with your negotiations.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

In theory you could navigate the whole length of your proposed area on a Saturday, stay at the end Saturday night and navigate back to the start on Sunday. You could then spend the other 13 nights wherever you wanted to.

 

Repeat every 14 days.

 

You will have a range of 28 miles

You will cover 1456 miles (56 miles per fortnight)

 

It should not be a problem - it appears to comply with the current guidance.

 

You will need to give some consideration to electricity generation (generator or engine) 4 hours (?) per day

Water tank filling

Sewage and rubbish disposal

Shopping

Laundry

etc etc.

[OldGoat]

Ummm -

The concept of CCing on the Lea and Stort seems a complete nonsense to me as you can cover the whole of the Lea in a day.

However as discussed on another thread M'lud Nigel Moore (!) has distinguished the difference between a Licence (canals) and Certificate (Rivers only.

Doing a Google turns up a pdf from Nabo which states that there is a Public Right of Navigation on the Lea and Stort. That means CRT can't control your use and that includes CCing.

 

It would be interesting to know if others agree with me - from the legal point of view. I don't support CMing, which is in effect what the OP wants to do. It's the legal issue which interests me in this case.

 

From the practical point of view The LEA is about full of boats so finding a space to moor would be difficult anyway.

 

AHA, just had a thought - if the riparian owner is CRT, then my argument is pointless, because their Ts & Cs determine mooring conditions and probably anchoring mid stream....

 

Any thought folks?

[NigelMoore]

. . . M'lud Nigel Moore (!) has distinguished the difference between a Licence (canals) and Certificate (Rivers only.

 

Doing a Google turns up a pdf from Nabo which states that there is a Public Right of Navigation on the Lea and Stort. That means CRT can't control your use and that includes CCing.

 

 

Not quite correct.

 

It is true that that there is a public right of navigation on the Lea and Stort, confirmed in centuries old statute aside from common law – but that is over-ridden to some extent by the relevant Statute of 1971.

 

Schedule 1 of the British Waterways Act 1971 lists the various “River waterways” affected, including “The River Lee Navigation from Hertford to the river Thames at Limehouse and to the tail of Bow Locks”, and “The River Stort Navigation”.

 

The definition of a “river waterway” in this context is given as the “main navigable channel” of the designated lengths of the listed rivers. This term is identical to that used in the Transport Act 1968: it refers to the minimum navigable channel that the authority is compelled to keep dredged and operational for the use of vessels of such a width and draught as used those lengths in the 9 months prior to 8 December 1967. It is all very specific.

 

Determining exactly what the dimensions of that minimum operational channel were, according to that statutory requirement, was achieved by consulting the records to find the relevant craft dimensions, then doubling the width plus a little extra to establish what was needed for two boats of the maximum size to pass each other.

 

The results were eventually published in the 1975 Fraenkel report, which serves as the standard for all dredging contractors to work to.

 

Twice the Fraenkel beam for the Lee Navigation [depending on the stretches] is between 9.44 & 11.58mtrs of a minimum dredge depth of 1.29 to 1.31mtrs. The Navigation channel maintenance requirements have therefore remained fixed at 12m width at 1.3m depth between Old Ford Lock and Hertford.

 

Twice the Fraenkel beam for the River Stort is 6.5m at a dredge depth of 1.36m; the navigation channel maintenance standard being fixed at 7.6m width at 1.1m depth.

 

Those are the dimensions of the relevant “main navigable channel” of the Lee and Stort, and all pleasure boats kept or used within that channel are required to obtain either a Pleasure Boat Licence or Pleasure Boat Certificate.

 

Both being classified as a “relevant consent” under the 1995 Act, the “CC” requirement as relevant applies. Of course, for so long as a boat is kept out of the main navigable channel, then the boat is not having to move on at all – but that situation is no different to that on the canals, where a “CC’er” is perfectly entitled to leave the boat at a legitimate mooring, whether on or off-line. It is only the leaving the boat on the towpath for longer than 14 days in any one place that obstructs the rights of others to the use of that towpath.

[nipper]

What one has to ask oneself, is that, am I going to be a constant Cruiser and constantly cruise the canal and river system, obeying the rules that i have signed against, or am i going to go up and down the same bit of water and hope that I get away with it like so many others think that they will.

Then, when i get caught, moan and winge about the underhanded Cart licencing system!

 

If you are going to sign the licence form as a constant cruiser, then cruise, otherwise get a mooring and don't take the piss!

 

Sorry for the rant, but i have had enough of this topic on CWF. I understand that for some on here, that talking about this subject is all that they have to worry about, but for goodness sake, lets give this subject a rest?

 

Nipper

[bassplayer]

What one has to ask oneself, is that, am I going to be a constant Cruiser and constantly cruise the canal and river system, obeying the rules that i have signed against, or am i going to go up and down the same bit of water and hope that I get away with it like so many others think that they will.

Then, when i get caught, moan and winge about the underhanded Cart licencing system!

 

If you are going to sign the licence form as a constant cruiser, then cruise, otherwise get a mooring and don't take the piss!

 

Sorry for the rant, but i have had enough of this topic on CWF. I understand that for some on here, that talking about this subject is all that they have to worry about, but for goodness sake, lets give this subject a rest?

 

Nipper

The trouble is some of us don't agree with CRT's interpretation of the law and changes they have made after we signed up to our licence (and invested in a boat/home). The subject wouldn't raise all of this interest if it was a pointless topic. Other threads are available.

[Arthur Marshall]

If there are 160 boats under scrutiny on the k&a, I suspect we'll know a lot more about what happens in the longer run by the end of the year, and whether the courts consider CRTs actions legal or not. I can't see 160 getting lifted out with no publicty at all.

ETA whether we live on or not, CC or not,this is important to all of us.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Arthur Marshall

[NigelMoore]

Adding to my last, with reference to OldGoat's post, the old River Lea [distinct from the River Lee Navigation] is omitted from the scheduled rivers, so the PRN remains unamended and his comment would apply to those stretches.

[jenlyn]

You may well be legal, I don't know, but to call moving 2 to 5 miles per fortnight navigating is a joke. In my book CCing is travelling such a distance as to make the use of a fixed mooring impractical. Clearly moving 2(!) to 5 miles could be done from a fixed mooring (and back for tea!). Best of luck with your negotiations.

The distance of 2-5 miles per move seems ok in my "book". Nice leisurely pace.

[Alan de Enfield]

Adding to my last, with reference to OldGoat's post, the old River Lea [distinct from the River Lee Navigation] is omitted from the scheduled rivers, so the PRN remains unamended and his comment would apply to those stretches.

 

Definition of the Lee & Stort Navigation from the 1965 Byelaws :

 

Bye-Laws :-

1. These Bye-laws shall apply to every canal or inland navigation in England and Wales belonging to or under the control of the British Waterways Board except the following canals: -

(a) The Lee and Stort Navigation

( the Gloucester and Sharpness Canal

© the River Severn Navigation which are more particularly defined in the Schedule hereto

 

Schedule :-

 

THE LEE AND STORT NAVIGATIONS means the Limehouse Cut, the Waterworks River, the City Mill River, the Three Mills Wall River, the Bow Back River, the portion of the Old River Lee from Carpenters Road Bridge to its junction with the Lee Navigation below Old Ford Locks, and the Pudding Mill River (including any Rivers widened, diverted, altered or constructed under the River Lee (Flood Relief, etc.) Act 1930) and all parts of the Lee Navigation above Bow Locks, (including those locks) and also all parts of the Stort Navigation.

[alan_fincher]

Hi this is my first post, my boat should be built by the end of July and I wish to become a CCruise liveaboard I intend to travel the length of the river Stort and along the Lea navigation from Enfield to Hertford a total of approximately 28 miles do you think this will be far enough to comply with CaRTs CCruiser regulations,

Dave.

It's only "about 28 miles" if you are counting both directions of the round trip.

 

It is actually about half of that in terms of range.

 

I think CRT are likely to consider it "not enough" if you never stray from that relatively small length.

 

But why not ask them directly?

I'm pretty sure that CRT (or maybe it was BW) have previously said that anybody with a 'Rivers Only' licence can legitimately CC on the Lea & Stort. I'm sure even if you have a 'normal' licence then it will be ok based on the thinking if it's okay for one licence holder then it must be okay for another.

What is being proposed is I doubt not a lot more than just half of the navigable Lee.

Edited May 4, 2015 by alan_fincher

[Skyraker]

It took me 4 days for me to do the Lea snd Stort giving it some proper bell oil.

 

Mind you , if you intend to stick to that navigation only then you are part of the problem.

 

Get a bloody mooring and stop taking tge piss.

[DeanS]

I don't know that area at all, but if someone does not like living tied up with other boats a metre away (is that honestly what boating is supposed to be) and is committed to continue travelling around, even if not a very wide range , should other boats actually be giving them stick. I certainly don't, as long as they aren't an inconvenience to other boaters or the public.....

 

we REALLY need to get away from the current CRT trend of "you must either be stuck in a housing estate marina or go live on land.

[David Mack]

we REALLY need to get away from the current CRT trend of "you must either be stuck in a housing estate marina or go live on land.

Except CRT aren't saying that. They are saying "you must use your boat bona fide for navigation or take a home mooring", just as BW have said for the last 20 years.

[Paul C]

 

we REALLY need to get away from the current CRT trend of "you must either be stuck in a housing estate marina or go live on land.

 

Dean there's plenty of mooring options other than in a marina; and there's the option of CCing too.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

we REALLY need to get away from the current CRT trend of "you must either be stuck in a housing estate marina or go live on land.

 

If that is how you really perceive the situation - there are other Navigation authorities, or you could even go 'coastal' and be pretty much free of any rules & regulations.

 

No BSS

No Licence

No Waterways Act 1995

No 14 day limits

No width restrictions

No locks to work