Jump to content

CMers versus CRT


b0atman

Featured Posts

In Manchester, on CRT waters, there is a huge CMer problem, as shown by the photo taken on this bank holiday weekend.

 

rochdale.jpg

 

Does the fact that there is nobody moored on a lock landing in a public car park in an area that has its share of antisocial behaviour actually prove anything?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

And yet, we have another thread from another boater who feels agrieved that CRT are targetting enforcement.

 

Ther have to be rules, and those rules have to be reasonably understandable and clear to boaters.

 

As soon as you start having different rules for different areas, you would complain that you couldn't be expected to know the rules for every area.

 

It is interesting that you blame CRT for this. Why are you not blaming those who decided that they would play silly buggers? It is their silly gaming the system that leads to stricter enforcement.

 

I'm quite happy for CRT to deal with CMers (I've said that).

If CRT see a boat staying in the same place forever, let them send someone to that boater and deal with it.

There is no reason for the other 95% of boaters who aren't P-takers to have the very thing they moved onto the waterways for (peaceful living) threatened by the idea of being watched from behind the bushes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LOL....ok I am beat smile.png

I was just playing devils advocate on a topic which has been done to death already.

 

I accept that CMers are a problem.

but...I don't accept they are a problem everywhere.

I accept they are a problem at certain hotspots, and need to be dealt with.

 

 

But surely yo accept the need for uniform enforcement across the system?

 

Otherwise boaters in hotspots will complain about being singled out for special treatment, UNFAIR!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Does the fact that there is nobody moored on a lock landing in a public car park in an area that has its share of antisocial behaviour actually prove anything?

 

LOL. This is the ONLY CRT water in the very centre of Manchester. If there was a CMer problem, with people wanting to live in Manchester because they had jobs etc, and didn't want to pay for it, this would be the ideal spot...close to amenities...trains...buses...the fact is , on CRT water in Manchester...there are ....zero.....let me say it again....ZERO....boats moored.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LOL. This is the ONLY CRT water in the very centre of Manchester. If there was a CMer problem, with people wanting to live in Manchester because they had jobs etc, and didn't want to pay for it, this would be the ideal spot...close to amenities...trains...buses...the fact is , on CRT water in Manchester...there are ....zero.....let me say it again....ZERO....boats moored.

 

But that is because it's not a safe location to leave your boat, as you well know. You are moored in a marina close by and that is bad enough!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

LOL. This is the ONLY CRT water in the very centre of Manchester. If there was a CMer problem, with people wanting to live in Manchester because they had jobs etc, and didn't want to pay for it, this would be the ideal spot...close to amenities...trains...buses...the fact is , on CRT water in Manchester...there are ....zero.....let me say it again....ZERO....boats moored.

 

Of course it wouldn't be an ideal spot!

 

That is why nobody is moored on it.

 

(and it is NOT the only CRT water in Manchester - it may be the only wide beam CRT water in Manchester, but the Ashton Canal from Ancoats bottom lock to the junction is also central Manchester)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Except if you turn into the Ashton, which is just out of shot in the photograph there are safe moorings and they are on C&RT waters, or carry straight on still in the middle of Manchester to yet more safe moorings.

 

Dean you seem to have it in your head that you have to boat in the same way as someone without a home mooring, that is incorrect. You have to move every 14 days if you are not on your mooring, we all have always had to do that, but as to how far that is up to you. The 1995 act has not changed and that is the law.

 

Ken

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Who are you suggesting should be my target?

 

 

ohmy.png

cc,r , cm,r ,c shuffler , shuffler is a new one to me so if you start with one of them before they multiply into a huge armada of boats shuffling along the waterways.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Except if you turn into the Ashton, which is just out of shot in the photograph there are safe moorings and they are on C&RT waters, or carry straight on still in the middle of Manchester to yet more safe moorings.

 

 

sorry...forgot to say all those canals on the Ashton...and Rochdale....are all empty too :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have Meg on another thread suggesting CRT should be focussed on incentives rather than enforcement and Dean wants a 'different way'.

 

If you want to modify people's behaviour I think incentives are a better way than enforcement.

 

My suggestion is that CRT introduce an incentive bond of £500 for each boat owner. CRT then issue demerit points to boat owners who breach the rules or T&C. Example: 1 demerit point for each day a boater moors on a lock landing. 2 demerit points a day for overstaying on a visitor mooring, etc.

Each demerit point is worth £10 and when a boater goes to renew their licence they are also required to top up their incentive bond by the cost of demerit points.

 

Boat owners who don't incur any demerit points for three consecutive years have their bond refunded. This will encourage boaters to comply with the rules and T&C.

 

The money raised from demerit points should go into the enforcement budget. That way those creating the problem are paying for its mitigation.

 

Seems like a good incentive to modify behaviour.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Manchester, on CRT waters, there is a huge CMer problem, as shown by the photo taken on this bank holiday weekend.

 

rochdale.jpgWe all know that CM'ers travel in packs, so it stands to reason that the moorings would either be empty or full...

Edited by Dave_P
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have Meg on another thread suggesting CRT should be focussed on incentives rather than enforcement and Dean wants a 'different way'.

 

If you want to modify people's behaviour I think incentives are a better way than enforcement.

 

My suggestion is that CRT introduce an incentive bond of £500 for each boat owner. CRT then issue demerit points to boat owners who breach the rules or T&C. Example: 1 demerit point for each day a boater moors on a lock landing. 2 demerit points a day for overstaying on a visitor mooring, etc.

Each demerit point is worth £10 and when a boater goes to renew their licence they are also required to top up their incentive bond by the cost of demerit points.

 

Boat owners who don't incur any demerit points for three consecutive years have their bond refunded. This will encourage boaters to comply with the rules and T&C.

 

The money raised from demerit points should go into the enforcement budget. That way those creating the problem are paying for its mitigation.

 

Seems like a good incentive to modify behaviour.

 

So you'll be checking every lock landing every night then, will you? And every visitor mooring? How much is that going to cost.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have Meg on another thread suggesting CRT should be focussed on incentives rather than enforcement and Dean wants a 'different way'.

 

If you want to modify people's behaviour I think incentives are a better way than enforcement.

 

My suggestion is that CRT introduce an incentive bond of £500 for each boat owner. CRT then issue demerit points to boat owners who breach the rules or T&C. Example: 1 demerit point for each day a boater moors on a lock landing. 2 demerit points a day for overstaying on a visitor mooring, etc.

Each demerit point is worth £10 and when a boater goes to renew their licence they are also required to top up their incentive bond by the cost of demerit points.

 

Boat owners who don't incur any demerit points for three consecutive years have their bond refunded. This will encourage boaters to comply with the rules and T&C.

 

The money raised from demerit points should go into the enforcement budget. That way those creating the problem are paying for its mitigation.

 

Seems like a good incentive to modify behaviour.

 

 

I'll give it ten minutes before someone says that would be illegal!

 

Oh, hang on...

But you (and Meg) are right in principle. The law currently incentivises boaters to break the law.

 

If CRT could find a way to make CMing more expensive than having a home mooring, the problem would evaporate overnight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have Meg on another thread suggesting CRT should be focussed on incentives rather than enforcement and Dean wants a 'different way'.

 

If you want to modify people's behaviour I think incentives are a better way than enforcement.

 

My suggestion is that CRT introduce an incentive bond of £500 for each boat owner. CRT then issue demerit points to boat owners who breach the rules or T&C. Example: 1 demerit point for each day a boater moors on a lock landing. 2 demerit points a day for overstaying on a visitor mooring, etc.

Each demerit point is worth £10 and when a boater goes to renew their licence they are also required to top up their incentive bond by the cost of demerit points.

 

Boat owners who don't incur any demerit points for three consecutive years have their bond refunded. This will encourage boaters to comply with the rules and T&C.

 

The money raised from demerit points should go into the enforcement budget. That way those creating the problem are paying for its mitigation.

 

Seems like a good incentive to modify behaviour.

Blimey, I've heard some daft ideas on here before, but this may be the winner! Will there be undercover enforcement agents hiding behind the bushes at every lock landing and visitor mooring?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have Meg on another thread suggesting CRT should be focussed on incentives rather than enforcement and Dean wants a 'different way'.

 

If you want to modify people's behaviour I think incentives are a better way than enforcement.

 

My suggestion is that CRT introduce an incentive bond of £500 for each boat owner. CRT then issue demerit points to boat owners who breach the rules or T&C. Example: 1 demerit point for each day a boater moors on a lock landing. 2 demerit points a day for overstaying on a visitor mooring, etc.

Each demerit point is worth £10 and when a boater goes to renew their licence they are also required to top up their incentive bond by the cost of demerit points.

 

Boat owners who don't incur any demerit points for three consecutive years have their bond refunded. This will encourage boaters to comply with the rules and T&C.

 

The money raised from demerit points should go into the enforcement budget. That way those creating the problem are paying for its mitigation.

 

Seems like a good incentive to modify behaviour.

 

LOL...I have to admit...that is one of the most creative ideas I've seen on this issue for some time...and makes a lot of sense :)

 

If CRT could find a way to make CMing more expensive than having a home mooring, the problem would evaporate overnight.

 

Unfortunately, with the new T&Cs for boaters WITH a home mooring, the enforcement is exactly the same for both parties.

 

If you have a home mooring, but leave your mooring and dont travel far enough, CRT can stop your licence.

If you are a CMer, and dont leave your mooring, and don't travel far enough, CRT can stop your licence.

 

bonkers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Unfortunately, with the new T&Cs for boaters WITH a home mooring, the enforcement is exactly the same for both parties.

 

If you have a home mooring, but leave your mooring and dont travel far enough, CRT can stop your licence.

If you are a CMer, and dont leave your mooring, and don't travel far enough, CRT can stop your licence.

 

bonkers.

 

 

Missing the point big time Dean, as usual.

 

CMers could CM on their home moorings as long as they like without any threat of enforcement!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Prise them out as they've clearly been there too long.

 

Brilliant! I thought you were on about the CMers who have overstayed - but then realised it was the slidey-numbers-thingy.

Untie their ropes and give them a shove out into the canal when they have exceeded their time limit, then put your boat where theirs was. Simples.

...and have a dog that has actually bitten a couple who where passing.

What is the answer ?

 

Bite the dog! Simples!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

I'll give it ten minutes before someone says that would be illegal!

 

Oh, hang on...

But you (and Meg) are right in principle. The law currently incentivises boaters to break the law.

 

If CRT could find a way to make CMing more expensive than having a home mooring, the problem would evaporate overnight.

 

They could.

 

There is absolutely NOTHING that says that the price of a licence with a mooring and the price of a licence without a mooring has to be the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So you'll be checking every lock landing every night then, will you? And every visitor mooring? How much is that going to cost.

Initially CRT would do no additional checking. It would be suffice to report some. Once the boaters who do this realise there is a financial incentive to avoid the practice it would cease. Eventually behaviour would change and the cost of enforcement could be reduced from its current level.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

LOL...I have to admit...that is one of the most creative ideas I've seen on this issue for some time...and makes a lot of sense smile.png

 

Unfortunately, with the new T&Cs for boaters WITH a home mooring, the enforcement is exactly the same for both parties.

 

If you have a home mooring, but leave your mooring and dont travel far enough, CRT can stop your licence.

If you are a CMer, and dont leave your mooring, and don't travel far enough, CRT can stop your licence.

 

bonkers.

You keep saying that, and the T&Cs appear to back you up, but crucially, the law doesn't. I will amazed if a single boat with a home mooring has their license stopped over this. Can you point to a single case of this happening? It seems that at least one forum member is deliberately flouting the T&Cs in order to challenge the T&Cs and I welcome that. A far more proactive approach than simply coming on here to moan.

Initially CRT would do no additional checking. It would be suffice to report some. Once the boaters who do this realise there is a financial incentive to avoid the practice it would cease. Eventually behaviour would change and the cost of enforcement could be reduced from its current level.

So this theoretical system is just as punitive as the current system (just replacing the threat of losing your license with the threat of losing money) and it's also just as hit-and-miss and the current system since some people will be caught out and others not. In fact it's likely to be more unfair. I'm really struggling to see any advantages.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Learn how to hit them with the front, side and rear of your boat, and you will soon figure out how NOT to hit something you want to avoid.

 

I found this cute canal boating video. Bumping instruction at 2:17 - Allen's Lock I believe, at Upper Heyford.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So this theoretical system is just as punitive as the current system (just replacing the threat of losing your license with the threat of losing money) and it's also just as hit-and-miss and the current system since some people will be caught out and others not. In fact it's likely to be more unfair. I'm really struggling to see any advantages.

No! This proposal provides an incentive to comply with the rules by modifying behaviour. Anyone who knowing intends to breach the rules assesses the risk of doing so. Risk is measured in terms of likelihood and consequences. If CRT employ the same resources as the do currently then the likelihood remains the same. But at the moment the consequences are minimal. Eventually you might be asked to move on. However with this proposal if the boater breaches the rules and is caught they understand there is a financial consequence. It's not unfair. Every boater has the freedom to decide whether or not to breach the rules knowing they may be responsible for the consequences. It is actually fairer for those boaters who do comply because they will pay less for the running of the scheme. Those that get caught pay and that is the incentive to comply.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.