Serious Incident - Shropshire Union Nr Chester 11/03/2015

[furnessvale]

 

They (the police) have the authority to impose bail conditions, or not grant it at all.

I think you give the police far more powers than they actually have.

 

Conditions as suggested can only be imposed by a court.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Naughty Cal]

 

Will be interesting to see what developments occur, I can't imagine CRT will be able to prove speeding, but there's a lot of evidence under a more general offence such as criminal damage.

Navigating without due care and attention perhaps?

 

Also it is unlikely that her insurers will pay out for any damage to other boats as no doubt there will be a clause in her policy regarding exclusions for

 

"any person in charge of the vessel being under the influence of alcohol or prohibited drugs."

Edited for double post!

Edited March 17, 2015 by Naughty Cal

[Paul C]

I think you give the police far more powers than they actually have.

 

Conditions as suggested can only be imposed by a court.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

You're right, I don't know the law that well, I was unsure if it were the court or the charging officer who decides, so I looked it up and read a few links, for example:

 

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/a_to_c/bail/#a26

 

which suggested the police do have limited powers here:

 

 

 

There are broadly three scenarios pre-charge where the police may decide to grant bail with or without conditions or withhold bail altogether:

 

Happy to be corrected on the details though.

[Arthur Marshall]

 

Navigating without due care and attention perhaps?

 

Also it is unlikely that her insurers will pay out for any damage to other boats as no doubt there will be a clause in her policy regarding exclusions for

 

"any person in charge of the vessel being under the influence of alcohol or prohibited drugs."

Edited for double post!

 

Mine says "no cover for incidents caused by wilful act or reckless conduct".

Presumably you'd have to sue for damages or via small claims court? No idea how that would work under the current system, I doubt you;d get legal aid these days.

[starman]

I recalled that a few years ago there was talk of extending the 'drink driving' laws to boating but I see on Googling that this never happened.

This is the RYA summary of the current laws. Would the Merchant Shipping Act apply on the canals?

http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/currentaffairs/Pages/alcoholandboating.aspx

[alan_fincher]

 

One of the things that seems hard to understand is that mental illness can mean behaving irrationally. That is in a way that is not rational. Your statement is perfectly rational, and such methods of thinking may not be available to someone with a mental health problem.

 

Rather than gathering pitchforks and blazing torches, can we wait and see what happens?

 

Richard

 

 

Remember the world suicide day thread? the world is full of the unqualified well meaning distributing diagnoses of mental illness. It is also full of the unqualified intolerant who distribute condemnation and reproach. Like Richard says, let's wait and find out, restrain those jerky knees!

 

Quite!

[Krooko]

There are several issues at play in terms of what happened last Wednesday, including, but not restricted to, the following:

 

(i) the attitude of people being responsible and respecting other people has gone for good. In the past generally people in the UK played by the rules and deferred to others with more life / work experience and skills. The individual concerned has taken advantage of this overly liberal system and, if it's happened once, it could happen again. We therefore need to think about introducing an efficient system of regulation to try and stop it recurring, or at least try and introduce some sanctions.

 

(ii) a system of licenses and exams to demonstrate competence in boating must be introduced, with points systems and disqualification. I have a Helmsman license, and whilst i'm still pretty poor at boating, i observe try to observe a basic standard of care and respect for other boaters. One can easily learn the art of keeping a boat steady and under control after taking qualified instruction, or know when it's to hazardous to cruise at all due to weather etc. The driving license has not killed car transport, or car hire companies, and neither would it shut down the boat hire industry. But the system must be straighforward and flexible. people still commit motoring offences, but they are held accountable for doing so, with fines, points deductions and disqualification.

 

(iii) alcohol is a metabolic poison. it's easy to identify what is a safe limit for boating - perhaps either under 60mg or 80mg per 100 ml of blood, just as for driving a car or other vehicle. Boating alcohol-free thus far has not troubled me at all. With modern diesel engines and thick steel plated heavy boats, one can do a lot of damage to people, property wildlife and infrastructure.

 

(iv) mental health issues there may be. I believe that GPs are able to remove driving licenses from people who pose a risk to others, based on a health history or incidents - strokes etc. until health is restored and this coudl apply to cruising licenses just as easily.

 

There's no need to reinvent the wheel therefore - the driving license system is already here and covers a variety of vehicle classes. A large number of points increases insurance premiums.

 

I'm new to boating and I'm sorry if these issues have been debated before on the forum. Licenses won't stop infringements, but they would provide an incentive to keep to the straight and narrow,

rant over!

 

Krooko

 

 

 

 

[Willber G]

Welcome to the forum, Krooko.

Some interesting points, but I'm not going to let isolated incidents like that in the OP affect the way I enjoy my boating and I don't think the authorities should either.

[matty40s]

There are several issues at play in terms of what happened last Wednesday, including, but not restricted to, the following:

 

(i) the attitude of people being responsible and respecting other people has gone for good. In the past generally people in the UK played by the rules and deferred to others with more life / work experience and skills. The individual concerned has taken advantage of this overly liberal system and, if it's happened once, it could happen again. We therefore need to think about introducing an efficient system of regulation to try and stop it recurring, or at least try and introduce some sanctions.

 

(ii) a system of licenses and exams to demonstrate competence in boating must be introduced, with points systems and disqualification. I have a Helmsman license, and whilst i'm still pretty poor at boating, i observe try to observe a basic standard of care and respect for other boaters. One can easily learn the art of keeping a boat steady and under control after taking qualified instruction, or know when it's to hazardous to cruise at all due to weather etc. The driving license has not killed car transport, or car hire companies, and neither would it shut down the boat hire industry. But the system must be straighforward and flexible. people still commit motoring offences, but they are held accountable for doing so, with fines, points deductions and disqualification.

 

(iii) alcohol is a metabolic poison. it's easy to identify what is a safe limit for boating - perhaps either under 60mg or 80mg per 100 ml of blood, just as for driving a car or other vehicle. Boating alcohol-free thus far has not troubled me at all. With modern diesel engines and thick steel plated heavy boats, one can do a lot of damage to people, property wildlife and infrastructure.

 

(iv) mental health issues there may be. I believe that GPs are able to remove driving licenses from people who pose a risk to others, based on a health history or incidents - strokes etc. until health is restored and this coudl apply to cruising licenses just as easily.

 

There's no need to reinvent the wheel therefore - the driving license system is already here and covers a variety of vehicle classes. A large number of points increases insurance premiums.

 

I'm new to boating and I'm sorry if these issues have been debated before on the forum. Licenses won't stop infringements, but they would provide an incentive to keep to the straight and narrow,

rant over!

 

Krooko

 

Not only would your proposals kill overnight the hire, day boat and leisure boat owning businesses, how in your plan is enforcement going to take place and where will the budget for enforcement come from.

[Arthur Marshall]

Incidents like this are fortunately very rare, and to impose stringent legislation because of one incident is daft. Cars go a bit faster than narrowboats, and it is seldom that a collision between two steel hulls causes much more than a scrape, or someone going too fast does more than pull a boat of the bank*. Annoying, but not exactly life threatening. The whole point of boating is relaxation and it is, thank god, still a fairly free and easy way of going about things - possibly the last one left. Just because of one idiot (and it doesn't matter WHY they are an idiot) you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's back to hammers and nuts.

 

*Edited to add, the next boater to come along will probably interrupt their journey to put it back tidily.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Arthur Marshall

[Naughty Cal]

There are several issues at play in terms of what happened last Wednesday, including, but not restricted to, the following:

 

(i) the attitude of people being responsible and respecting other people has gone for good. In the past generally people in the UK played by the rules and deferred to others with more life / work experience and skills. The individual concerned has taken advantage of this overly liberal system and, if it's happened once, it could happen again. We therefore need to think about introducing an efficient system of regulation to try and stop it recurring, or at least try and introduce some sanctions.

 

(ii) a system of licenses and exams to demonstrate competence in boating must be introduced, with points systems and disqualification. I have a Helmsman license, and whilst i'm still pretty poor at boating, i observe try to observe a basic standard of care and respect for other boaters. One can easily learn the art of keeping a boat steady and under control after taking qualified instruction, or know when it's to hazardous to cruise at all due to weather etc. The driving license has not killed car transport, or car hire companies, and neither would it shut down the boat hire industry. But the system must be straighforward and flexible. people still commit motoring offences, but they are held accountable for doing so, with fines, points deductions and disqualification.

 

(iii) alcohol is a metabolic poison. it's easy to identify what is a safe limit for boating - perhaps either under 60mg or 80mg per 100 ml of blood, just as for driving a car or other vehicle. Boating alcohol-free thus far has not troubled me at all. With modern diesel engines and thick steel plated heavy boats, one can do a lot of damage to people, property wildlife and infrastructure.

 

(iv) mental health issues there may be. I believe that GPs are able to remove driving licenses from people who pose a risk to others, based on a health history or incidents - strokes etc. until health is restored and this coudl apply to cruising licenses just as easily.

 

There's no need to reinvent the wheel therefore - the driving license system is already here and covers a variety of vehicle classes. A large number of points increases insurance premiums.

 

I'm new to boating and I'm sorry if these issues have been debated before on the forum. Licenses won't stop infringements, but they would provide an incentive to keep to the straight and narrow,

rant over!

 

Krooko

 

 

 

 

Interesting first post.

 

But no thanks. There is no need for more regulation.

[Krooko]

Not only would your proposals kill overnight the hire, day boat and leisure boat owning businesses, how in your plan is enforcement going to take place and where will the budget for enforcement come from.

 

Thanks Matty,

 

In response, i woudl say that the DVLA system is already here, and funded by both central government and the licensing levies that apply. The system works, which is why we keep it. I did my Helmsman license in a day, and it wasn't expensive, certainly not compared to the cost of a boat, or even hiring a boat,

K

[Naughty Cal]

 

Thanks Matty,

 

In response, i woudl say that the DVLA system is already here, and funded by both central government and the licensing levies that apply. The system works, which is why we keep it. I did my Helmsman license in a day, and it wasn't expensive, certainly not compared to the cost of a boat, or even hiring a boat,

K

But you said in the same sentence

 

"and whilst i'm still pretty poor at boating"

 

Which would seem to imply it didn't really teach you much .

Edited March 17, 2015 by Naughty Cal

[Paul C]

1) I don't think it would address this situation anyway

 

and

 

2) There are aleady laws in place to deal with the incident which occurred in an appropriate manner.

[Alan de Enfield]

1) I don't think it would address this situation anyway

 

and

 

2) There are aleady laws in place to deal with the incident which occurred in an appropriate manner.

 

I do not think the incident did occur in an appropriate manner, hence the thread.

[Paul C]

 

I do not think the incident did occur in an appropriate manner, hence the thread.

 

You've misread/miscomprehended what I wrote, let me add brackets to help you out:

 

"There are aleady laws in place to deal with the [incident which occurred] in an appropriate manner." NOT "There are aleady laws in place to deal with the incident which [occurred in an appropriate manner]."

[Krooko]

 

You've misread/miscomprehended what I wrote, let me add brackets to help you out:

 

"There are aleady laws in place to deal with the [incident which occurred] in an appropriate manner." NOT "There are aleady laws in place to deal with the incident which [occurred in an appropriate manner]."

 

Yes, the boater last Weds clearly infringed the by-laws, particularly para 44. There's not much of a fine, however, and no means of endorsing a license or removing it, or applying criminal penalties of the sort that would deter someone so reckless.

[The Pipe]

 

There are several issues at play in terms of what happened last Wednesday, including, but not restricted to, the following:

 

(i) the attitude of people being responsible and respecting other people has gone for good. In the past generally people in the UK played by the rules and deferred to others with more life / work experience and skills. The individual concerned has taken advantage of this overly liberal system and, if it's happened once, it could happen again. We therefore need to think about introducing an efficient system of regulation to try and stop it recurring, or at least try and introduce some sanctions.

(ii) a system of licenses and exams to demonstrate competence in boating must be introduced, with points systems and disqualification. I have a Helmsman license, and whilst i'm still pretty poor at boating, i observe try to observe a basic standard of care and respect for other boaters. One can easily learn the art of keeping a boat steady and under control after taking qualified instruction, or know when it's to hazardous to cruise at all due to weather etc. The driving license has not killed car transport, or car hire companies, and neither would it shut down the boat hire industry. But the system must be straighforward and flexible. people still commit motoring offences, but they are held accountable for doing so, with fines, points deductions and disqualification.

 

(iii) alcohol is a metabolic poison. it's easy to identify what is a safe limit for boating - perhaps either under 60mg or 80mg per 100 ml of blood, just as for driving a car or other vehicle. Boating alcohol-free thus far has not troubled me at all. With modern diesel engines and thick steel plated heavy boats, one can do a lot of damage to people, property wildlife and infrastructure.

 

(iv) mental health issues there may be. I believe that GPs are able to remove driving licenses from people who pose a risk to others, based on a health history or incidents - strokes etc. until health is restored and this coudl apply to cruising licenses just as easily.

 

There's no need to reinvent the wheel therefore - the driving license system is already here and covers a variety of vehicle classes. A large number of points increases insurance premiums.

 

I'm new to boating and I'm sorry if these issues have been debated before on the forum. Licenses won't stop infringements, but they would provide an incentive to keep to the straight and narrow,

rant over!

 

Krooko

Since I was 18 years old I have realised that all anybody wants to do is take what was left of the little freedom I had left away. Now 44 years later and I have now practically non left you come along and want to take what little is left away. After 50 years of boating you first want to compell me to spend my money and get a licence to do what I've been doing quite succesfully for the past 50 odd years.

Is there water in the canals of Mars?

[Alan de Enfield]

 

You've misread/miscomprehended what I wrote, let me add brackets to help you out:

 

"There are aleady laws in place to deal with the [incident which occurred] in an appropriate manner." NOT "There are aleady laws in place to deal with the incident which [occurred in an appropriate manner]."

 

Ah - I see, you meant "There are appropriate laws in place to deal with the incident"

 

Similar to an advert in our local paper "Wanted table for Lady with Queen Anne legs!

[Paul C]

 

Yes, the boater last Weds clearly infringed the by-laws, particularly para 44. There's not much of a fine, however, and no means of endorsing a license or removing it, or applying criminal penalties of the sort that would deter someone so reckless.

 

AFAIK Police don't get involved in canal byelaws. They're pursuing it under criminal damage.

[Barry]

(i) the attitude of people being responsible and respecting other people has gone for good. In the past generally people in the UK played by the rules and deferred to others with more life / work experience and skills. The individual concerned has taken advantage of this overly liberal system and, if it's happened once, it could happen again. We therefore need to think about introducing an efficient system of regulation to try and stop it recurring, or at least try and introduce some sanctions.

 

 

Krooko

 

 

 

 

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

I don't agree with your first point. People going on a binge then doing something stupid under the influence of an over indulgence has been going on since alcohol was invented. There's nothing new here.

 

People do still generally go by society's rules. Its just that the infringements get more widely reported (and instantly judged) by instant media, giving the impression that bad behaviour is more widespread than it used to be. I don't think it is.

 

To consider the imposition of a whole new "efficient system of regulations" based on one woman's irresponsible behaviour as you propose is a monster of a knee jerk reaction and, in my opinion, neither necessary nor wise

[Victor Vectis]

A couple of Irish builder friends of mine went to Saudi Arabia on holiday. They felt very intimidated by all the sand, and decided to terminate their holiday before the cement arrived.

 

Nice one Bizz!

 

[mark99]

Sod the p^ssed bint, pity the poor ones whose boats were was damaged.

Edited March 17, 2015 by mark99

[Victor Vectis]

There are several issues at play in terms of what happened last Wednesday, including, but not restricted to, the following:

 

<SNIP>

 

I'm new to boating and I'm sorry if these issues have been debated before on the forum. Licenses won't stop infringements, but they would provide an incentive to keep to the straight and narrow,

rant over!

 

Krooko

 

 

 

 

You're not wearing a hi-viz jacket and sporting a jaunty flat, peaked cap by any chance are you?

[colmac]

If you look at the wording of Sect 1 Criminal Damage Act 1971 I would say this covers what has happened here i.e. "the person destroys or damages any property belonging to another or is reckless as to whether any such property would be destroyed or damaged"Apologies for the paraphrasing.