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CRT answer questions to new T&Cs


GoodGurl

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well i am pleased CRT have put all the guessing to bed, seems this latest release has done it's job.

 

Well I'm not sure it does for me.

 

Whilst answers like.....

 

 

Home moorers required to follow ‘Guidance for Boats without a Home Mooring’

 

If you have a Home Mooring for your boat we do not expect you to follow the guidance for those who don’t have a Home Mooring. However, we do require you to cruise whilst away from the Home Mooring. If you are sighted for an extended period in a limited area moving between a few adjacent places without returning to your Home Mooring, you will not be “cruising” and this may attract the attention of our enforcement team. In some cases we may seek to confirm with your mooring provider that you still have a berth with them.

 

 

may be telling a lot of people what they think they want to here, I'm not convinced that the existing acts actually give backing to such a statement.

 

It also once again begs the question how can they conclude that you have been "sighted for an extended period in a limited area moving between a few adjacent places without returning to your Home Mooring". As I recently demonstrated from my own data, I managed to travel from the South right op the network, across the Pennines and back, and South again, only being recorded twice. Had those two sightings both been close to the same place, (quite possible if I had come back on the same route as we went out), what stops them concluding I have been bridge hopping in that area over several months.

 

The answers don't satisy me, frankly. There is nothing in the acts that say I have to be on a continuous journey, if I have a home mooring, but am not on it.

People may want there to be, but there isn't!

  • Greenie 2
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I've had the impression that there has been such a rule, from well before the requirement to have an approved home mooring, but never been aware of any serious attempt to enforce it. There was very little pressure on space at that time.

I don't know what basis, legal or otherwise, the rule had.

 

Tim

It was certainly in place in the 1960s when Nigel and Di Carter were living on George. They had a long correspondence with BW at the time as they had no home mooring and moved every two weeks. Nigel worked in Liverpool and their numerous mooring places moved from Maghull around to Ellesmere Port over several months, so significant distances were involved. In the end, BW agreed that there was nothing illegal, provided that they moved every 14 days.

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............. The other thing relates to contract law, which is interesting as it's the last surviving bit of the old feudal legal system. Terms and Conditons can in general (certainly those of employment) be changed at the whim of the contracting party and there is nothing the contractee can do about it except either accept the changes or quit. Whether this is true in other fields apart from employment I have no idea, but I suspect that it is indeed the case.

 

Terms & Conditions must

1) Not contravene any Law, Act of Parliament etc

2) Be accepted and signed by both parties.

 

If you do not accept a T&C you can strike it through and initial it, then sign the T&Cs, they do not become valid until the other party has signed them and both parties have a copy of the T&Cs with both signatures on them.

 

There is currently huge debate about agreeing to T&Cs online and having to 'check' a box to say you have read and agree to the T&Cs. The fact you can tick this box without actually going to the page on which the T&Cs are shown is being considered to be illegal. More work is being done on this.

 

As an aside is a rule or condition enforceable ?

 

"The court can hold a rule to be invalid even though it is contained in a contract" . Lord Denning. " Nagle v Feilden (1966) 2 QB 633"

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The contravening the law bit I can understand and that's maybe where the debate lies. But if you are employed part time, and your employer decides to vary your T&Cs by reducing your hours of employment, you have the option of signing it to agree the change or quit your job. You don't have the option of carrying on working your original hours as per the previous T&C you agreed when you signed the contract (well, I suppose you can, but you won't get paid for it). If the same rules apply here, you have the option of agreeing the new T&Cs when you sign your mooring permit contract, or going CC. The only argument I can see is whether the new T&Cs specifically contravene the law. I add that I've only ever studied this in relation to employment in my union days so I may well be wrong as to how it applies elsewhere.

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I know that this couple do not do this now but the scenario they would follow for a number of years was to go from marina in the summer months to a place where hubby fished and wife did her thing the boat would remain static for 2 or 3 months .They ate at the local pub each day and where no bother to anyone .

This is now a no no because of inconsiderate CMers .

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You are very easily pleased, or very easily led.

 

Does no one else find this paragraph totally contradictory

 

Home moorers required to follow ‘Guidance for Boats without a Home Mooring’

If you have a Home Mooring for your boat we do not expect you to follow the guidance for those who don’t have a Home Mooring. However, we do require you to cruise whilst away from the Home Mooring. If you are sighted for an extended period in a limited area moving between a few adjacent places without returning to your Home Mooring, you will not be “cruising” and this may attract the attention of our enforcement team

 

So - you do not have to follow the "No Home Mooring Guidelines" but you do have to cruise and be in more than a 'few' different places. (No doing A to B to C to B to A)

Remember C&RTs definition of 'an extended period' is 14 days.

 

So - lets look at C&RTs definition of 'cruise' for a Boat With A Home Mooring :-

"The terms ‘cruise’ and ‘cruising’ are used in this guidance to mean using a boat bona fide for navigation"

 

If I remember correctly the 1995 Act states for Boats WITHOUT a Home Mooring :

 

..the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board that the vessel to which the application relates will be used bona fide for navigation throughout the period for which the consent is valid without remaining continuously in any one place for more than 14 days or such longer period as is reasonable in the circumstances.

 

In summary C&RT are now saying that boats WITH a Home Mooring do not need to follow the guidance for Boats WITHOUT a Home Mooring, but (in contravention the 1995 Act) they MUST Bona Fide navigate and must not move about in a SMALL NUMBER of (undefined) PLACES.

 

I can see why GoodGurl believes they have clarified the situation. !!!!!

You seem to have missed the bit where C&RT state "...whilst away from the Home Mooring...". If you take that into account then it makes sense. If you use the HM during the week, but every weekend navigate to the same local pub, favourite fishing spot etc, spend the night there and then go back to the HM that is not going to be the subject of any enforcement action. However if you leave the HM and cruise to somewhere else and then just move between two or three different locations/places without going back to the HM, then that may cause enforcement action to be taken.

 

So if the whole paragraph is read in its entirety it is not contradictory.

 

Terms & Conditions must

1) Not contravene any Law, Act of Parliament etc

2) Be accepted and signed by both parties.

 

If you do not accept a T&C you can strike it through and initial it, then sign the T&Cs, they do not become valid until the other party has signed them and both parties have a copy of the T&Cs with both signatures on them.

 

There is currently huge debate about agreeing to T&Cs online and having to 'check' a box to say you have read and agree to the T&Cs. The fact you can tick this box without actually going to the page on which the T&Cs are shown is being considered to be illegal. More work is being done on this.

 

 

Do you think if you applied for licence and crossed out some of the T&Cs that C&RT would send you the licence back?

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Terms & Conditions must

1) Not contravene any Law, Act of Parliament etc

<snip>

 

"The court can hold a rule to be invalid even though it is contained in a contract" . Lord Denning. " Nagle v Feilden (1966) 2 QB 633"

 

 

I'm still wondering how CRT's apparent ability to refuse a licence to a boat which has been

 

"sighted for an extended period in a limited area moving between a few adjacent places without returning to your Home Mooring".

 

intersects with it's obligation under the 1995 Act to issue a licence to any boat with a BSS, insurance and a home mooring.

 

What steps might a boater take to force CRT to honour it's obligation under the 1995 act to issue a licence, faced with refusal?

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I understand the subtle differences they've introduced, and am somewhat disappointed that the link in the OP (CRT's responses to questions on amended T&Cs)

 

1) Misinterpret the law by saying the "14 day rule" has always applied to home moorers

2) Simply repeats/paraphrases what was said in the amended T&Cs, rather than going further and explaining how it relates to the law

3) Contains no info such as author, date, reference etc

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I'm still wondering how CRT's apparent ability to refuse a licence to a boat which has been

 

"sighted for an extended period in a limited area moving between a few adjacent places without returning to your Home Mooring".

 

intersects with it's obligation under the 1995 Act to issue a licence to any boat with a BSS, insurance and a home mooring.

 

What steps might a boater take to force CRT to honour it's obligation under the 1995 act to issue a licence, faced with refusal?

This all started with the k&a big experiment. The writing IMO was on the wall then

 

Quote

*Boaters with a home mooring

If your home mooring is within the local plan area, we understand that you might use the neighbourhoods closest to your home mooring more frequently than those further afield but we would ask that you always return your boat to your home mooring when not being used for cruising. If your home mooring is elsewhere but you are visiting the canal between Bath and Foxhangers, we ask that you follow this guidance until you leave the local plan area.

unquote

 

In other words boats with home moorings are subject to the guidance for boats without a home mooring

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This all started with the k&a big experiment. The writing IMO was on the wall then

 

Quote

*Boaters with a home mooring

If your home mooring is within the local plan area, we understand that you might use the neighbourhoods closest to your home mooring more frequently than those further afield but we would ask that you always return your boat to your home mooring when not being used for cruising. If your home mooring is elsewhere but you are visiting the canal between Bath and Foxhangers, we ask that you follow this guidance until you leave the local plan area.

unquote

 

In other words boats with home moorings are subject to the guidance for boats without a home mooring

 

But there's a big difference between "we would ask that...." and "you're not having a licence unless..."

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You're becoming very tiresome with your inability to understand the points in my posts.

I seem to remember that a few years ago, when BW was trying to enforce the CC rules (against CMers), the standard consensus was that BW was in charge, and that they could make the rules, and that one had to comply, or re-consider boat ownership. . Among the smug replies used to be "you have got away with it till now, but not anymore".

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This all started with the k&a big experiment. The writing IMO was on the wall then

 

Quote

*Boaters with a home mooring

If your home mooring is within the local plan area, we understand that you might use the neighbourhoods closest to your home mooring more frequently than those further afield but we would ask that you always return your boat to your home mooring when not being used for cruising. If your home mooring is elsewhere but you are visiting the canal between Bath and Foxhangers, we ask that you follow this guidance until you leave the local plan area.

unquote

 

In other words boats with home moorings are subject to the guidance for boats without a home mooring

 

 

Yes I quite agree.

 

That plan was voluntary AIUI. They are attempting to make the new T&C mandatory.

 

I'll happily comply with it and stop bridge hopping if it can be shown to be legal. But so far I remain unconvinced.

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Yes I quite agree.

 

That plan was voluntary AIUI. They are attempting to make the new T&C mandatory.

 

I'll happily comply with it and stop bridge hopping if it can be shown to be legal. But so far I remain unconvinced.

Amazing isn't it that have never done this before to any other group of boaters.

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You seem to have missed the bit where C&RT state "...whilst away from the Home Mooring...".......................

 

No I have not.

Let me give you a 'for instance' using the proposed 'place' maps that were leaked last year and are allegedly being re-issued in the very near future.

 

My Home Mooring is at Newark and I want to have a nice summer cruise to Boston and back which is a nice journey of 133 miles, and we plan to take about a month to do it.

 

Place No 1 is from my home mooring to Cromwell lock, where I stay for 2 days on the 48 hour mooring

 

Place No 2 is Cromwell Lock to Torksey Lock. On the way we stop at Dunham Bridge (13 miles from Cromwell) for a couple of days on the 48 hour mooring. another hour (4 miles) takes us to Torksey Lock where we need to wait for the tide

 

Place No 3 is The Fossdyke from Torksey to central Lincoln - we continue on from Torksey Lock to Saxilby (5 miles) where we decide to stay in this wonderful little village for a four days. We then have a slow cruise into the centre of LIncoln (6 miles) and stay on the visitors moorings for 2 days.

 

Place No4 is Lincoln to Boston. (The entire length of the River - 33 miles each way - is shown as just 1 place) We cruise from Lincoln to Bardney stay on the48 hour moorings, we then cruise from Bardney to Tattershall Bridge where the moorings are controlled by the Pub Landlord and we stay 7 days as we tour around Woodhall Spa. Tattershall Bridge to Antons Gowt and stay again for 48 hours, Antons Gowt to Boston visitors moorings and stay 48 hours.

 

We have taken 23 days on the outward trip but have now been in one place (Place No4 for 13 days and we have to turn around and go back)

 

Lets say we 'rush' back and do Boston to Lincoln in 4 days - we have now been in Place No4 for 17 days.- and 3 days back to Newark

 

Not only have we stayed more than 14 days in one place, we have only been in 4 places - we have failed to abide by C&RTs 'rules' :- "If you are sighted for an extended period in a limited area moving between a few adjacent places without returning to your Home Mooring, you will not be “cruising” and this may attract the attention of our enforcement team

 

We have travelled 10 times the 'indicated' acceptable for non-enforcement mileage for a CCer but are still open to enforcement - particularly as the EO for the area is the 'well-known' one.

 

A journey of 133 miles takes us thru' only 4 'places' - on the K&A, a distance of 12 miles encompasses 14 'places'. Think outside the narrow confines of a major conurbation canal and look at the implications for all boaters.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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But there's a big difference between "we would ask that...." and "you're not having a licence unless..."

But I suspect they won't try to refuse you a licence, they'll refuse you a mooring permit. Then you only have a licence to CC and have to comply with those rules. THEN they refuse your licence if you don't. The new TCs are about mooring permits, not licences
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But I suspect they won't try to refuse you a licence, they'll refuse you a mooring permit. Then you only have a licence to CC and have to comply with those rules. THEN they refuse your licence if you don't. The new TCs are about mooring permits, not licences

 

One doesn't need a "mooring permit" to licence a boat under the "I have a home mooring" declaration though.

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I'm still wondering how CRT's apparent ability to refuse a licence to a boat which has been

 

"sighted for an extended period in a limited area moving between a few adjacent places without returning to your Home Mooring".

 

intersects with it's obligation under the 1995 Act to issue a licence to any boat with a BSS, insurance and a home mooring.

 

What steps might a boater take to force CRT to honour it's obligation under the 1995 act to issue a licence, faced with refusal?

 

I fear you would have to ask the Judge for his opinion.

There will not be any clearer information till someone does.

 

Bod

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But I suspect they won't try to refuse you a licence, they'll refuse you a mooring permit. Then you only have a licence to CC and have to comply with those rules. THEN they refuse your licence if you don't. The new TCs are about mooring permits, not licences

 

How can they "refuse" to issue a mooring permit when you don't need one ? All you need is to provide evidence of a mooring which ....... etc etc etc

It does not have to be a 'mooring permit' issued by C&RT - and - as they say the licence is issued but is not a mooring permit - or are you suggesting that C&RT only issue a licence if you take a C&RT mooring ?

 

2.1. The Licence allows you to use the Boat in any Waterway including mooring for short periods while cruising. ‘Short period’ means up to 14 days or less where a local restriction applies. The Licence does not permit mooring for any longer period. Daily charges may be applied for staying longer than the maximum time allowed.

 

Can you please identify any requirement to hold a 'mooring permit'

 

Are you reading the same T&Cs as everyone else "The new T&Cs are about mooring permits, not licences" - unbelievable !!!

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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Er, unless I've got this completely wrong (which I accept is possible), we are talking about the new T&Cs for those with home moorings. The only time you have to sign anything to say that you accept these T&Cs are when you apply for a mooring permit from CRT. If you don't need one, you don't have to sign anything. But you don't have to be on a CRT mooring to need a mooring permit. Or are we back to arguing that mooring permits are illegal in the first place and no-one should buy one?

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Er, unless I've got this completely wrong (which I accept is possible), we are talking about the new T&Cs for those with home moorings. The only time you have to sign anything to say that you accept these T&Cs are when you apply for a mooring permit from CRT. If you don't need one, you don't have to sign anything. But you don't have to be on a CRT mooring to need a mooring permit. Or are we back to arguing that mooring permits are illegal in the first place and no-one should buy one?

 

No, these are to do with the BOAT licence, which is different to the mooring permit. Plenty of boat(er)s have a licence but not a mooring permit, and obtained that licence declaring "I have a home mooring or other place the boat can be kept....". For example, AFAIK nobody in an offline marina needs a mooring permit; towpath and offside moorings where a mooring permit isn't required; trailerable boats, etc etc.

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No, these are to do with the BOAT licence, which is different to the mooring permit. Plenty of boat(er)s have a licence but not a mooring permit, and obtained that licence declaring "I have a home mooring or other place the boat can be kept....". For example, AFAIK nobody in an offline marina needs a mooring permit; towpath and offside moorings where a mooring permit isn't required; trailerable boats, etc etc.

My error - thanks. Also thanks for answering the point without the gratuitous rudeness demonstrated by some others on here!

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Er, unless I've got this completely wrong (which I accept is possible), we are talking about the new T&Cs for those with home moorings. The only time you have to sign anything to say that you accept these T&Cs are when you apply for a mooring permit from CRT. If you don't need one, you don't have to sign anything. But you don't have to be on a CRT mooring to need a mooring permit. Or are we back to arguing that mooring permits are illegal in the first place and no-one should buy one?

 

Arthur - stop digging before it gets to deep to get out,

 

When you apply for a LICENCE this part is called the declaration as you have to sign it.

 

7. Declaration

Please tick the relevant boxes

I am over 18 years old (not applicable if the application is for an unpowered boat)

I understand that the licence does not permit the hiring out of the boat to anyone else.

We may wish to send you other information about the waterways. Please tick if you do not want to receive this information from us.

We may wish to share your details with our subsidiaries and other affiliated companies. Please tick this box if you do want your details shared.

If you intend to use your craft for anything other than private pleasure use.

I confirm that I have read, understood and accept the licence terms and conditions and that the information I have given on this form is correct.

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My understanding is that the 14 day rule applied to cc'ers under 1995 act. Crt have insisted that all boaters abide by it but haven't enforced it because they can't. Am I wrong? Is there any legislation which allows CRT to refuse to issue a licence to a boater with a home mooring for contravening the 14 day rule?

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