Batteries now I am totally confused AGM or not?

[269sky]

Hi there

I am looking to buy AGM batteries for my boat and wanted to purchase a Varta LAD115 but cannot locate stock anywhere. I have been given details on two Lucas batteries AGM 140ah and a 120AH (which will fit in the space). However, I have spoken to a company called Shield batteries who have suggested their own battery which is an AGM battery. Here are the links to the one they are suggesting:

http://www.shieldbatteries.co.uk/products/sterling.html

 

However when you look at the product in detail it shows it as a lead acid battery?

 

http://www.shieldbatteries.co.uk/uploads/h140-12.pdf

 

I think there are two types of AGM battery so not sure if this one is any good - the guy on the phone said it would need venting?

 

I have a Pro Combi S inverter

 

Are there any differences between the Lucas, Varta and the Sterling battery (no connection with the Sterling inverter people btw).

 

It just gets more confusing the further I go..........

 

 

[nicknorman]

Hi there

I am looking to buy AGM batteries for my boat and wanted to purchase a Varta LAD115 but cannot locate stock anywhere. I have been given details on two Lucas batteries AGM 140ah and a 120AH (which will fit in the space). However, I have spoken to a company called Shield batteries who have suggested their own battery which is an AGM battery. Here are the links to the one they are suggesting:

http://www.shieldbatteries.co.uk/products/sterling.html

 

However when you look at the product in detail it shows it as a lead acid battery?

 

http://www.shieldbatteries.co.uk/uploads/h140-12.pdf

 

I think there are two types of AGM battery so not sure if this one is any good - the guy on the phone said it would need venting?

 

I have a Pro Combi S inverter

 

Are there any differences between the Lucas, Varta and the Sterling battery (no connection with the Sterling inverter people btw).

 

It just gets more confusing the further I go..........

 

Those Sheild /Sterling batteries look like "sealed lead acid" gel cells to me, not AGM. Have you noticed the cycle life, it is very short. I wouldn't get these.

[269sky]

I thought this too as I called him back to confirm but he was adamant that they were AGM and told me to look at the first url which states AGM - I said they showed wet sealed so surely couldn't be true AGM batteries totally confused now?

Do you think the Lucas batteries are better?

[nicknorman]

I thought this too as I called him back to confirm but he was adamant that they were AGM and told me to look at the first url which states AGM - I said they showed wet sealed so surely couldn't be true AGM batteries totally confused now?

Do you think the Lucas batteries are better?

It doesn't really matter whether they are AGM or not, the cycle life is rubbish! But of course AGM batteries do contain lead and acid, as well as the glass mat.

 

I've only ever had cheap open wet leisures, or Trojans. I really like the latter. The only thing is, they are not good for very high current, although 450AH bank manages to put 2kw into our inverter fairly happily. If high current is a requirement for you, maybe AGM or gel is a good idea, otherwise I would go for semi-traction (ie Trojans) which are keenly priced compared to AGM. But then of course, one tends to like what one is familiar with!

[269sky]

Trojans open wet would be our battery of our choice but access is a nightmare - the joys of a trad stern. We want something we don't need to worry about - I appreciate they are not as good as open wet and it will be a compromise.

[OldGoat]

AGM's were designed for those folks whose boating is of the 'Lee Rail Under' . They work very well upside down. There are few folks now who follow that trend - and who also only need batteries for distress beacons.

Nowadays saily folks usually stay upright (well until it's dark) and are perhaps moving for inland cruisers who's demands are for washing machines Internet and Sky.

 

Reading threads on this forum what is really needed is a large battery bank and giant alternators, but few will admit this.

 

I am a voice crying in the Wilderness - Prepare Ye the Way of The - traction battery. (Costa lot, though)

 

Briefly - NOT.

Good evening.

Edited March 11, 2015 by OldGoat

[peterboat]

Full traction with a watering system would sort out the access problem also capable of giving out high current plus lots of cycles

 

Peter

[269sky]

We are not power hungry and even use a hot water bottle rather than a 'posh' electric blanket! Yes there is a washing machine on board but I would only use this if via the engine or shore power. The lights are led, gas cooker and hob and a couple of led tvs but prefer listening to the radio. I looked into the watering system for the Trojan batteries which came in at an eye watering £150 for some plastic tubing which is unbelievable.

 

The access in the engine room is very tight and we are not able to get ourselves into the space to try to fill up....honest it isn't a great space and I have had many a cricked neck and bruises to count! I think probably the Lucas AGM will do based on the reply from nicknorman rather than the Sterling ones (my gut feeling was they didn't seem right hence my post for advice). If they last three years that would be fine and the fact I wont have to crawl in to peer at the wet open type will be bliss )

[mango]

I keep hearing about the AGM when we discuss batteries, but when is the meeting?

[peterboat]

We are not power hungry and even use a hot water bottle rather than a 'posh' electric blanket! Yes there is a washing machine on board but I would only use this if via the engine or shore power. The lights are led, gas cooker and hob and a couple of led tvs but prefer listening to the radio. I looked into the watering system for the Trojan batteries which came in at an eye watering £150 for some plastic tubing which is unbelievable.

 

The access in the engine room is very tight and we are not able to get ourselves into the space to try to fill up....honest it isn't a great space and I have had many a cricked neck and bruises to count! I think probably the Lucas AGM will do based on the reply from nicknorman rather than the Sterling ones (my gut feeling was they didn't seem right hence my post for advice). If they last three years that would be fine and the fact I wont have to crawl in to peer at the wet open type will be bliss )

My boat came with AGMs which I removed as I had a bank of full tractions from my old boat to fit, my friend John has them and they are still going well after 7 years so you should be ok

 

Peter

[Neil2]

In the most recent edition of Nigel Calder's book "The boat owners mechanical and electrical manual" he explains why he changed his advice regarding wet cell and gel/AGM batteries. In brief there was a time when the performance of sealed batteries didn't compare but these days there is a good argument that for many boat owners sealed type batteries might be better.

 

Without going into the fine detail, if access to the batteries is poor - or non existent as on some narrowboats - they simply aren't going to get checked/topped up regularly, nor are they if you are away from the boat for weeks/months at a time. And unless you have sophisticated charging equipment to bring wet cell batteries up to 100% every so often, the life span will be significantly shortened. Sealed batteries, though having a nominally shorter life span, are easier to recharge and will tolerate neglect better,

 

I don't have any expert knowledge myself, I'm just repeating what Nigel Calder says in his book, but if you accept this view you need to make a decision as to whether your circumstances allow you to fully exploit the longevity advantages of a wet cell battery. If you can't then modern sealed batteries might well be better.

 

 

[bottle]

We are not power hungry and even use a hot water bottle rather than a 'posh' electric blanket! Yes there is a washing machine on board but I would only use this if via the engine or shore power. The lights are led, gas cooker and hob and a couple of led tvs but prefer listening to the radio. I looked into the watering system for the Trojan batteries which came in at an eye watering £150 for some plastic tubing which is unbelievable.

 

The access in the engine room is very tight and we are not able to get ourselves into the space to try to fill up....honest it isn't a great space and I have had many a cricked neck and bruises to count! I think probably the Lucas AGM will do based on the reply from nicknorman rather than the Sterling ones (my gut feeling was they didn't seem right hence my post for advice). If they last three years that would be fine and the fact I wont have to crawl in to peer at the wet open type will be bliss )

 

but it is not just plastic tubing, there are all the automatic level floats that fit in each cell.

 

Not cheap agreed but is it worth £150 not have to go down there for next few years and have the advantage of 'open wet lead acid' batteries.

 

Sealed, AGM, Gel cannot be equalised.

[larryjc]

Discussed this elsewhere but we have 5 AGMs and they are now entering their 8th year and still have about 90% capacity. The previous owner who fitted them was a radio ham and took a lot out of them. We probably never go below 80% as we are not power hungry like the OP. I am waiting for them to fail and will replace with Trojans as I have plenty of space. If the OP is anticipating keeping the boat for some years and space is an issue then AGMs seem like the solution.

 

I found these on the web as well - not cheap but didn't see a price for the OPs ones:

 

http://www.barden-ukshop.com/rolls-12v-s12-116agm-deep-cycle-battery---free-uk-delivery-2279-p.asp

Edited March 12, 2015 by larryjc

[Sea Dog]

Discussed this elsewhere but we have 5 AGMs and they are now entering their 8th year and still have about 90% capacity. The previous owner who fitted them was a radio ham and took a lot out of them. We probably never go below 80% as we are not power hungry like the OP. I am waiting for them to fail and will replace with Trojans as I have plenty of space. If the OP is anticipating keeping the boat for some years and space is an issue then AGMs seem like the solution.

 

I would have thought you have just made a very convincing case for you to replace your current batteries with more of the same!

[nicknorman]

Discussed this elsewhere but we have 5 AGMs and they are now entering their 8th year and still have about 90% capacity. The previous owner who fitted them was a radio ham and took a lot out of them. We probably never go below 80% as we are not power hungry like the OP. I am waiting for them to fail and will replace with Trojans as I have plenty of space. If the OP is anticipating keeping the boat for some years and space is an issue then AGMs seem like the solution.I found these on the web as well - not cheap but didn't see a price for the OPs ones:http://www.barden-ukshop.com/rolls-12v-s12-116agm-deep-cycle-battery---free-uk-delivery-2279-p.asp

Hmmm, this is Rolls' definition of an amphour: Amp-hour

Unit of electrical energy, one amp of current flowing for one hour. Abbreviated Ah.

 

If they don't know what an amphour is, what hope is there that they can build a decent battery?

[dmr]

Discussed this elsewhere but we have 5 AGMs and they are now entering their 8th year and still have about 90% capacity. The previous owner who fitted them was a radio ham and took a lot out of them. We probably never go below 80% as we are not power hungry like the OP. I am waiting for them to fail and will replace with Trojans as I have plenty of space. If the OP is anticipating keeping the boat for some years and space is an issue then AGMs seem like the solution.

 

I found these on the web as well - not cheap but didn't see a price for the OPs ones:

 

http://www.barden-ukshop.com/rolls-12v-s12-116agm-deep-cycle-battery---free-uk-delivery-2279-p.asp

 

How long have you had the boat? Its most likely that it's the discharge down to only 80% that is responsible for the long life, rather than the AGM construction.

If we believe the figures from Trojan, their batteries will do 4000 cycles at that discharge, that's just about 11 years if used every day.

 

............Dave

[lockedout]

Slightly hijacking the thread...

 

Had an interesting chat with Dave from Barden about batteries this morning. I am replacing/rebuilding my domestic bank which is completely knackered and made up of a mismatched set of 5 batteries.

 

Dave's advice...

 

Don't put more than 3 cells in a bank if you are going to connect them 'ladder' style - the fourth battery will only ever charge to approximately 80% and the fifth to about 60%. Apparently, this is due to the resistance in the system which increases exponentially as you move up the 'ladder'. So, either just use 3 batteries or rotate the batteries in the 'ladder' every 3 months or so.

 

So, I did some research and it appears that he is right. I have now planned a 4 battery bank - 4 x 130s rather than 5 x 110s and a convoluted connection scheme which uses long cables and short cables and a cross linked method to balance the resistance across the bank. I can't work out how to do it with 5 batteries in the bank, it is like a Krypton Factor question and I have a hunch it will only work with even numbers of batteries...

 

Anybody else even bother with all this? Or are you all using some form of technical solution to balance the charging across a large bank?

 

Sorry for the hijack!!

[larryjc]

As I said the previous owner (5 years) gave them some stick. I've only been gentle on them for the last 3 years. But I have to say I'm a fan of low discharges and try never to go below 70% on any boat I've owned. My last sailing yacht had 4 Trojans and between me and the new owner they lasted 6 years. Unlike the chap in a widebeam I met on the K&A last year who was running a full size domestic fridge freezer and other stuff and was drawing 35 Amps when I looked at his Victron meter and yet didn't even know what batteries he had. I suspect they didn't last until he got to Reading!

 

Edit for the hijack - I have the red at one end and the black at the other if this a ladder then it seems to work.

Edited March 12, 2015 by larryjc

[smileypete]

Slightly hijacking the thread...

 

Dave's advice...

 

Don't put more than 3 cells in a bank if you are going to connect them 'ladder' style - the fourth battery will only ever charge to approximately 80% and the fifth to about 60%. Apparently, this is due to the resistance in the system which increases exponentially as you move up the 'ladder'. So, either just use 3 batteries or rotate the batteries in the 'ladder' every 3 months or so.

 

Ladder for 5 or so is probably fine...

 

But only IF the takeoffs are diagonally opposite, the cables are reasonably thick (say 50mm² or more if inverter warrants it) and the connections well made.

 

A clamp meter will tell right away how well the batts are balanced - in reality!

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited March 12, 2015 by smileypete

[nicknorman]

Slightly hijacking the thread...

 

Had an interesting chat with Dave from Barden about batteries this morning. I am replacing/rebuilding my domestic bank which is completely knackered and made up of a mismatched set of 5 batteries.

 

Dave's advice...

 

Don't put more than 3 cells in a bank if you are going to connect them 'ladder' style - the fourth battery will only ever charge to approximately 80% and the fifth to about 60%. Apparently, this is due to the resistance in the system which increases exponentially as you move up the 'ladder'. So, either just use 3 batteries or rotate the batteries in the 'ladder' every 3 months or so.

 

So, I did some research and it appears that he is right. I have now planned a 4 battery bank - 4 x 130s rather than 5 x 110s and a convoluted connection scheme which uses long cables and short cables and a cross linked method to balance the resistance across the bank. I can't work out how to do it with 5 batteries in the bank, it is like a Krypton Factor question and I have a hunch it will only work with even numbers of batteries...

 

Anybody else even bother with all this? Or are you all using some form of technical solution to balance the charging across a large bank?

 

Sorry for the hijack!!

No, he is talking complete rubbish unless the installation is seriously inadequate. A typical "urban myth" propagated by folk who have heard it mentioned in the pub.

[lockedout]

Thanks Nick and Pete,

 

I was wondering, but the science/maths seems to make sense (A Level Physics was a long time ago) and even the SmartGuage website talks about it - including a connection plan from Mr SmileyPete

 

As I am rebuilding from scratch, battery boxes and everything, I think I will go with the 4 x 130s cross connected with some nice thick cable, take offs from #2 and #3 to some decent chunky bus bars.

 

Robert is your Father's Brother!

[smileypete]

Thanks Nick and Pete,

 

I was wondering, but the science/maths seems to make sense (A Level Physics was a long time ago) and even the SmartGuage website talks about it - including a connection plan from Mr SmileyPete

 

As I am rebuilding from scratch, battery boxes and everything, I think I will go with the 4 x 130s cross connected with some nice thick cable, take offs from #2 and #3 to some decent chunky bus bars.

 

This one?

 

 

Possibly a little bit better than a decent 'ladder' setup, but does mean three cables instead of two connected to the take off points, which may be not be easy..

 

Last time I looked, 110Ah leisures worked out a fair bit cheaper per Ah than 130Ah ones, could be worth considering.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited March 12, 2015 by smileypete

[lockedout]

That's the badger Pete! (Except mine is the other way up ).

 

I think the connectors should be ok - I will be using post to threaded pin converters.

 

Have you ever tried to work out a similar scheme for a 5 Battery bank. I wasted a couple of hours this afternoon trying to crack it, and failed.

 

I need somewhere about 550 Ah - so to get that out of a 4 battery bank, I need to go for the 130s.

 

Thanks again...

[fretman]

hi, I have used lead acid batteries 6 volts 232 amp, for the last seven years,, now up for renewal, will buy the same make and type, look them up. there is 8 of them and have a 160 amp alternator,, very good service for 7 years , so not all bad, was recommended to me buy Charles Stirling at the time and been very good to me

they are

US batteries

6 volt x(8)

232 amps

type US 220 XCL

 

Manbat Ltd
Lancaster House,
Lancaster Road,
Shrewsbury,
SY1 3NJ Reg

 

Tel: 01743 218 500

Fax: 01743 218 511

Sales Fax: 01743 218 501

Email: sales@manbat.co.uk

[WotEver]

Hmmm, this is Rolls' definition of an amphour: Amp-hour

Unit of electrical energy, one amp of current flowing for one hour. Abbreviated Ah.

 

If they don't know what an amphour is, what hope is there that they can build a decent battery?

???

 

That is an accurate description of an amphour (Ah). What point were you making?

Edited March 12, 2015 by WotEver