New T&C's question

[BD3Bill]

So, we have a home mooring. On the offside, private land.

 

We are both in our late 40's and work full time, don't liveaboard.

 

We get to the boat every two or three weeks for a night or two.

 

A couple of times a year we do a week long trip.

 

Sometimes we have a long weekend and cruise for that locally. Can't get far in 3 days there & back again!

 

Now:

 

Often we leave the mooring and go up to the next winding hole, moor for the night on a non VM towpath, come back to the home mooring the next day.

 

This is in rural Northamptonshire/Oxfordshire and would be within the same 'place' i.e. Parish.

 

I am going to fall foul of the new regs with this pattern aren't I?

 

It's a bit wrong that we pay nearly £800 per year to CRT to live in fear isn't it? Plus over £400 a quarter for a mooring to keep the boat, legally.

 

What's going on?

 

Cheers Bill

 

 

[Paul C]

No you won't fall foul, because what you're going fully satisfies the (unenforceable anyway, IMHO) requirement for "cruising" while away from a home mooring. CRT haven't actually defined the criteria they'll use for deciding what "cruising" is and isn't though, but lets look at the two prevolant scenarios: if the definition were very strict, they'd not have a hope in hell in court if it came to that. If it were less strict, you'd be okay.

 

I think what they're keen to avoid is people taking a home mooring then spending months on end in another place, shuffling up and down (eg) 200 yards of towpath.

 

It might be that your area simply isn't that often visited by the enforcement officers/data logging anyway, in which case they can't gather enough info on your boat movements to do anything. And if it was visited often enough, then they'll know you spend time on the home mooring too.....and that its quite close by.

[David Mack]

Well if that is non-compliant you'll be in company with an awful lot of other boaters who regularly chug a few miles up the cut from their home mooring to a favourite location, and return the following day.

[mango]

As David says, boaters with home mooring do this regularly and have done for years. If you decided to spend most of the time away from your mooring and repeatedly moving between a couple of other places, CRT might be concerned.

[pandajulienne]

What CRT are doing is stating that because you have a home mooring it does not entitle you to over stay on VM's. Like some did previously and think it was their right to do so.

[cotswoldsman]

What CRT are doing is stating that because you have a home mooring it does not entitle you to over stay on VM's. Like some did previously and think it was their right to do so.

I think you need to re read the T&C

[matty40s]

If they get round to persecuting boaters like you, the canals will well and truly be empty and dead.

With all the new T&C for everyone, new guidance for CC-ers, new moorings guidlelines etc, they are going to go for the worst offending and easiest targets first, probably 1 or 2%.

Then next year, the next 1 or 2%...

etc etc etc hey boot.

[Phil.]

I would think they have already identified those who they will focus on and I suspect it will be those that have been identified as being CCers doing less than 12 miles a year, or those with dubious home mooring arrangements doing the same. As for the OPs concerns, don't be. You will not be a target doing what you suggest is your normal cruising pattern.

[Arthur Marshall]

I asked CaRT about this (seemed to be the logical thing to do) and they said "This just states that if you have a home mooring then you still can only stay in the same place for 14 days unless there are signs with a specific mooring time. After this you are expected to move on. This should not affect anybody who has a home mooring but is going out and doing a cruise."

As far as I can see (even though their last sentence is grammatically weird and doesn't really make sense) , the new T&C makes no difference to me (home mooring, leisure boater) pootling out for a day or two to my favourite mooring spot a mile or so down the canal and then pootling home again, and doing it every weekend if I want to. It just means that if I'm out on a cruise, I can't stay in the same place for more than 14 days, and, as I've said before, if I'm out on a cruise, why on earth would I want to? I can't see any difference to the rule we have all assumed has been in place since I started boating, which is the 14 day thing. Whether that is in fact legal or not, it's certainly was what we undestood to be the case 30 years ago.

[cotswoldsman]

I would think they have already identified those who they will focus on and I suspect it will be those that have been identified as being CCers doing less than 12 miles a year, or those with dubious home mooring arrangements doing the same. As for the OPs concerns, don't be. You will not be a target doing what you suggest is your normal cruising pattern.

What is the difference between a home mooring and a dubious home mooring? Is one free or something is this the new thing DHmers instead of CMers

[Phil.]

What is the difference between a home mooring and a dubious home mooring? Is one free or something is this the new thing DHmers instead of CMers

I am sure you know what was meant, but for the sake of clarity, and I accept there is no legal basis to this, but i suspect C&RT consider a dubious home mooring to be some cheap arrangement in the desolate North whilst the the boater concerned shuffles about indefinitely in London or some other honey spot.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Phil.

[kris88]

Oh so a dubious mooring is in the north?

Regards kris

[cotswoldsman]

I am sure you know what was meant, but for the sake of clarity, and I accept there is no legal basis to this, but i suspect C&RT consider a dubious home mooring to be some cheap arrangement in the desolate North whilst the the boater concerned shuffles about indefinitely in London or some other honey spot.

Any particular part you wish to name as the desolate North where home moorings are exactly the same as anywhere else the country. How many of these boaters from the desolate North are cruising round London?

[5thHorseman]

AB

CD

 

Client matrix

 

A = High profit, Low cost of servicing account

B = High Profit, High cost of servicing account

C = Low profit, Low cost of servicing account

D = Low profit, High cost of servicing account

 

(Profit is possibly the wrong word, but hopefully you get my drift)

 

No business should be interested in category D customers unless they want to go broke.

The key first step in to try to move D's into one of the other categories, if you cannot then you dump them.

 

So if you don't pay your fee's, don't comply with the rules, ignore warnings and generally are a pain in the butt, you should not be suprised when the axe falls.

Businesses (or trusts) don't pick on their customer's randomly and would rather D's moved to one of the other categories.

 

However you take out the worst offenders and word soon gets about.

pour encourager les autres.

BW was a nationalised institution, CRT is a different animal and cannot afford the wastage of the past

The objective is not to engender fear but awareness and encourage a change in behaviour.

[cotswoldsman]

AB

CD

 

Client matrix

 

A = High profit, Low cost of servicing account

B = High Profit, High cost of servicing account

C = Low profit, Low cost of servicing account

D = Low profit, High cost of servicing account

 

(Profit is possibly the wrong word, but hopefully you get my drift)

 

No business should be interested in category D customers unless they want to go broke.

The key first step in to try to move D's into one of the other categories, if you cannot then you dump them.

 

So if you don't pay your fee's, don't comply with the rules, ignore warnings and generally are a pain in the butt, you should not be suprised when the axe falls.

Businesses (or trusts) don't pick on their customer's randomly and would rather D's moved to one of the other categories.

 

However you take out the worst offenders and word soon gets about. pour encourager les autres.

BW was a nationalised institution, CRT is a different animal and cannot afford the wastage of the past

The objective is not to engender fear but awareness and encourage a change in behaviour.

Unbelievable

[jenlyn]

Unbelievable

Hehehe

[Tony Dunkley]

AB

CD

 

Client matrix

 

A = High profit, Low cost of servicing account

B = High Profit, High cost of servicing account

C = Low profit, Low cost of servicing account

D = Low profit, High cost of servicing account

 

(Profit is possibly the wrong word, but hopefully you get my drift)

 

No business should be interested in category D customers unless they want to go broke.

The key first step in to try to move D's into one of the other categories, if you cannot then you dump them.

 

So if you don't pay your fee's, don't comply with the rules, ignore warnings and generally are a pain in the butt, you should not be suprised when the axe falls.

Businesses (or trusts) don't pick on their customer's randomly and would rather D's moved to one of the other categories.

 

However you take out the worst offenders and word soon gets about.

pour encourager les autres.

BW was a nationalised institution, CRT is a different animal and cannot afford the wastage of the past

The objective is not to engender fear but awareness and encourage a change in behaviour.

 

You're in for a bit of an uncomfortable jolt if you happen to stumble into the real world one day.

[Paul C]

 

You're in for a bit of an uncomfortable jolt if you happen to stumble into the real world one day.

 

So are you.

[Tony Dunkley]

 

So are you.

 

Can you explain why you think that ?

[costalot]

You're in for a bit of an uncomfortable jolt if you happen to stumble into the real world one day.

If your Canal and River Transport Services business has a majority of category D type customers then it is probably going bust

 

It is quite logical that CRT want to move category D boaters to category C.

[Alan de Enfield]

I asked CaRT about this (seemed to be the logical thing to do) and they said "This just states that if you have a home mooring then you still can only stay in the same place for 14 days unless there are signs with a specific mooring time. After this you are expected to move on. This should not affect anybody who has a home mooring but is going out and doing a cruise."

 

My understanding is that it is primarily the definition of 'place' that has now changed.

 

Under the old T&Cs (or within the 1995 Act) there was no requirement to move to a new 'place' (C&RTs definition of 'place', as in neighbourhood, parish etc etc) but, there was a requirement to move to a new 'location' after 14 days.

 

The new T&Cs now state that you need to move to a new 'place' (as in, the same as CCers are required to do)

 

Just to take an example - on the proposed 'places' map the entire length of the River Witham was shown as being only 'one-place', so even tho' I have a home mooring I could not go for a 15 day cruise up & down the Witham , stopping at all of the 48 hour moorings on the way out, and on the way back as I would still be within the boundaries of 'one-place' for more than 14 days.

Allbeit not having stopped on any mooring more than 48 hours.

 

 

Edited February 17, 2015 by Alan de Enfield

[jenlyn]

My understanding is that it is primarily the definition of 'place' that has now changed.

 

Under the old T&Cs (or within the 1995 Act) there was no requirement to move to a new 'place' (C&RTs definition of 'place', as in neighbourhood, parish etc etc) but, there was a requirement to move to a new 'location' after 14 days.

 

The new T&Cs now state that you need to move to a new 'place' (as in, the same as CCers are required to do)

 

Just to take an example - on the proposed 'places' map the entire length of the River Witham was shown as being only 'one-place', so even tho' I have a home mooring I could not go for a 15 day cruise up & down the Witham , stopping at all of the 48 hour moorings on the way out, and on the way back as I would still be within the boundaries of 'one-place' for more than 14 days.

Allbeit not having stopped on any mooring more than 48 hours.

 

At last!

Someone recognises the issue.

[BD3Bill]

At last!

Someone recognises the issue.

 

Yes this was what I was driving at, maybe not well put in my OP.

 

If Home Mooring and 'Favourite Spot' are in the same 'place'/length then I am not cruising surely?

 

I did check the places map (when it was available) and this is the case.

 

So on Saturday morning I need to go as far as the next 'place' from my home mooring which was defined as Claydon Top Lock. I would then have to carry on further to wind of course.

 

Fair enough I hear you cry, use you boat... that's what it's for.

 

So a change in the way we use our boat is forced upon us despite our good intentions (paying for a genuine HM).

 

My understanding is that it is primarily the definition of 'place' that has now changed.

 

Under the old T&Cs (or within the 1995 Act) there was no requirement to move to a new 'place' (C&RTs definition of 'place', as in neighbourhood, parish etc etc) but, there was a requirement to move to a new 'location' after 14 days.

 

The new T&Cs now state that you need to move to a new 'place' (as in, the same as CCers are required to do)

 

Just to take an example - on the proposed 'places' map the entire length of the River Witham was shown as being only 'one-place', so even tho' I have a home mooring I could not go for a 15 day cruise up & down the Witham , stopping at all of the 48 hour moorings on the way out, and on the way back as I would still be within the boundaries of 'one-place' for more than 14 days.

Allbeit not having stopped on any mooring more than 48 hours.

 

Thanks Alan, that is what I mean.

Cheers Bill

 

 

Edited February 17, 2015 by BD3Bill

[Paul C]

No, there's no requirement to go from place to place as a home moorer. There is a requirement to "cruise" while away from home moorings in the new T&C, but I think they mean effectively, "cruise" = "boat used bona fide for navigation".

 

For a CCer, the requirement is further defined: "boat used bona fide for navigation without remaining in continuously any one place longer than 14 days".

 

 

Of course, CRT might get sloppy and apply their perception of satisfactory boat movement for a CCer (which is debatable anyway....) to a home moorer. If they did this, (and probably depending on how targeted or broad-brush the approach is), its inevitible it will be legally challenged sooner or later; and since the underlying wording of the relevant legislation is unchanged, I can't see it resolving in CRT's favour.

[Tony Dunkley]

If your Canal and River Transport Services business has a majority of category D type customers then it is probably going bust

 

It is quite logical that CRT want to move category D boaters to category C.

 

The part of that Post 14 I was referring to is this : -

" BW was a nationalised institution, CRT is a different animal and cannot afford the wastage of the past

The objective is not to engender fear but awareness and encourage a change in behaviour."

. . . . . . anyone believing that is most definitely out of touch with reality.

Thank you for the warning re. the impending demise of my business after surviving for the last 46 years. I've never found the need to categorize my customers into anything other than the ones I'm happy to do business with again, and the ones that get told to piss off .