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Ham Baker paddles/Hatton Lock 34 Open Day Merged


cuthound

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Today, Mrs Hound and myself went down to the CRT Open Day for Lock 34 on the Hatton Flight. Impressive.

 

Volunteers very helpful, unlike some of the public who can see your about to take a picture and then step directly in front of you!

 

The CRT employee "Ian" who showed us around was very knowledgeable.

 

I have been up and down the Hatton flight many times, but have never seen the locks from this perspective before. I was amazed how deep the lock is when empty - almost 6 feet deep.

 

 

Lock%2034%20Gates%20North%20End_zpsivplc

 

 

Culvert%20North%20End_zpsmtli86if.jpg

 

 

Looking%20South_zpsq3jlwywv.jpg

 

 

Culvert%20North%202_zpsaerpd6v5.jpg

 

 

Bottom%20Paddle_zpspd34hs6d.jpg

 

Temporary%20Dam%20South%20End_zpst74z5jz

 

 

Lock%2034%20Looking%20North_zps7xdjfh9e.

 

 

The%20Thick%20of%20Hatton%20Flight_zpswn

Edited by cuthound
  • Greenie 1
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Cor, big innit!

 

I know people complain about the Hatton flight but the locks work. Which is more that can be said of another flight of 21 wide locks further north.

 

Are those multiple sluice outlets at the bottom of the lock wall in your 7th pic?

 

Yes you can see them in operation here:

 

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Interesting video Ray. Where you stuck on the lower cill trying to get in?

 

I didn't take a picture, but on the lower gates you could clearly see the grooves scored in the gates, where boats had only used on gate and missed the gap. The CRT man was dismissive of people who only open one gate, and said since the increase of single handed boaters it is becoming a major cause of leaking gates. Perhaps I'll change my behaviour, although I cannot recall ever hitting the closed gate whenever I have only used one gate.

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Thanks for the pics, BTW.

 

Did the CaRT chap say anything about how the paddles are used?

The reason I ask is that I was up at Hatton a few weeks ago and there is a BIG notice on the paddle gear at the top lock saying 'PLEASE USE WINDLASS TO WIND PADDLES DOWN DO NOT DROP' (CaRT capitals and underlining, not mine) I think there was one on the bottom lock too.

 

I'm sure there was a discussion about this on this 'ere forum a while ago. The conclusion being that the gear is NOT hydraulic and was designed to be dropped rather than wound down.

 

SAM, NB 'Red Wharf'

Guilty to both charges, m'lud. Single gating and dropping.

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Yes I asked him about the Hahn Baker (sp?) paddle gear. He was not aware that it was designed to be dropped, and said spares were increasigly scarce.

This is a graphic illustration of CRT not even understanding their own equipment. These are designed to self close through their gearing mechanism. Ham Baker still make similar kit today so spare shouldn't be a problem, unless you are a CRT employee!

 

The Ham, Baker & Co sluice gates were designed by Sir Robert Elliott-Cooper & Sons who were responsible for drawing up the plans for many of the flights of locks on the GUC widening.

They were subject of a patent 387951.

This allows one man to draw a paddle in 30 seconds against a head of water 8ft 6". Closing is by gravity. The angle is one part of the equation for allowing the paddle to close.

 

Most of these take around 22-25 turns to open, but in fact they are fully open at around 18 turns so remembering this will save a lot of energy on Hatton.

 

If any of these "volunteer" lock keepers tells you otherwise tell them to go and look up the patent!!

 

Indeed this Ham, Baker company must have had good products, they are still in business today: http://www.hambaker.co.uk/index.html

 

for full details of the patent see here: http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19330216&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=GB&NR=387951A&KC=A&ND=4

 

387951-A is referenced by 1 patents.

 

387,951. Sluice valves. BENCE, E. H., Municipal Engineering Works, Langley Green, Birmingham, HAM, P. S., 70, Victoria Street, London, and MORGAN, E. I., 8, Wolverhampton Road, Sedgley, Birmingham. Aug. 24, 1932, No. 23694. [Class 68 (ii).]

 

A sluice valve is operated by screw gearing of such a pitch that the valve,

when raised and released, will descend by its own weight.

 

The Figure shows a gearing for raising a flat sliding valve, not shown, at the lower end of a non-revolving rod 14. It comprises a gear case 19, 20, containing bevel wheels 23, 24 rotatable so that the nut 35 raises the rod 14. When raised, it is retained by pawls 33a, 33b engaging with ratchet wheels 30, 31 ; these may be released by overturning a link 34, and the valve then descends. The stop 37 is fitted with a buffer 38, or may function as a dashpot.; In a modification, the rod 14 is keyed to the wheel 23, and rotates in a nut at the upper end of a tube attached to the valve rod. Buffers are fitted at the lower edge of valve ; they may be removed to enable the valve to be removed.

TitleImprovements in or connected with penstocks, sluice valves and the like Application NumberGB19320023694 19320824 Publication Number387951 (A) Application DateAugust 24, 1932 Publication DateFebruary 16, 1933 AssigneeEdwin Ivor Morgan

Paul Sison Ham

Edgar Henry Bence IPCF16K 31/44

F16K 31/53

 

gallery_5000_522_45650.jpg

Edited by Laurence Hogg
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I am sick of hearing CRT employees refer to the Ham Baker paddle gear as "Hydraulic" or passing advice that you must wind the paddles down. They are designed to fall naturally and can be dangerous if you attempt to wind them down being heavy and powerful enough to "run away with you".

 

 

The Ham, Baker & Co sluice gates were designed by Sir Robert Elliott-Cooper & Sons who were responsible for drawing up the plans for many of the flights of locks on the GUC widening.

They were subject of a patent 387951.

 

This allows one man to draw a paddle in 30 seconds against a head of water 8ft 6". Closing is by gravity. The angle is one part of the equation for allowing the paddle to close.

 

Most of these take around 22-25 turns to open, but in fact they are fully open at around 18 turns so remembering this will save a lot of energy on Hatton.

 

If any of these "volunteer" lock keepers tells you otherwise tell them to go and look up the patent!!

 

Indeed this Ham, Baker company must have had good products, they are still in business today: http://www.hambaker.co.uk/index.html

 

for full details of the patent see here: http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19330216&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=GB&NR=387951A&KC=A&ND=4

 

387951-A is referenced by 1 patents.

 

387,951. Sluice valves. BENCE, E. H., Municipal Engineering Works, Langley Green, Birmingham, HAM, P. S., 70, Victoria Street, London, and MORGAN, E. I., 8, Wolverhampton Road, Sedgley, Birmingham. Aug. 24, 1932, No. 23694. [Class 68 (ii).]

 

A sluice valve is operated by screw gearing of such a pitch that the valve,

when raised and released, will descend by its own weight.

 

The Figure shows a gearing for raising a flat sliding valve, not shown, at the lower end of a non-revolving rod 14. It comprises a gear case 19, 20, containing bevel wheels 23, 24 rotatable so that the nut 35 raises the rod 14. When raised, it is retained by pawls 33a, 33b engaging with ratchet wheels 30, 31 ; these may be released by overturning a link 34, and the valve then descends. The stop 37 is fitted with a buffer 38, or may function as a dashpot.; In a modification, the rod 14 is keyed to the wheel 23, and rotates in a nut at the upper end of a tube attached to the valve rod. Buffers are fitted at the lower edge of valve ; they may be removed to enable the valve to be removed.

Title:

Improvements in or connected with penstocks, sluice valves and the like Application Number GB19320023694 19320824 Publication Number387951 (A) Application Date August 24, 1932 Publication Date February 16, 1933

Assignee Edwin Ivor Morgan

Paul Sison Ham

Edgar Henry Bence IPCF16K 31/44

F16K 31/53

 

gallery_5000_522_45650.jpg

 

To CRT, Please take this on board and EDUCATE your employees and volunteers.

Edited by Laurence Hogg
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I am sick of hearing CRT employees refer to the Ham Baker paddle gear as "Hydaulic" or passing advice that you must wind the paddles down. They are designed to fall naturally and can be dangerous if you attempt to wind them down being heavy and powerful enough to "run away with you".

 

 

The Ham, Baker & Co sluice gates were designed by Sir Robert Elliott-Cooper & Sons who were responsible for drawing up the plans for many of the flights of locks on the GUC widening.

They were subject of a patent 387951.

 

This allows one man to draw a paddle in 30 seconds against a head of water 8ft 6". Closing is by gravity. The angle is one part of the equation for allowing the paddle to close.

 

Most of these take around 22-25 turns to open, but in fact they are fully open at around 18 turns so remembering this will save a lot of energy on Hatton.

 

If any of these "volunteer" lock keepers tells you otherwise tell them to go and look up the patent!!

 

Indeed this Ham, Baker company must have had good products, they are still in business today: http://worldwide.esp...7951A&KC=A&ND=4

 

387951-A is referenced by 1 patents.

 

387,951. Sluice valves. BENCE, E. H., Municipal Engineering Works, Langley Green, Birmingham, HAM, P. S., 70, Victoria Street, London, and MORGAN, E. I., 8, Wolverhampton Road, Sedgley, Birmingham. Aug. 24, 1932, No. 23694. [Class 68 (ii).]

 

A sluice valve is operated by screw gearing of such a pitch that the valve,

when raised and released, will descend by its own weight.

 

The Figure shows a gearing for raising a flat sliding valve, not shown, at the lower end of a non-revolving rod 14. It comprises a gear case 19, 20, containing bevel wheels 23, 24 rotatable so that the nut 35 raises the rod 14. When raised, it is retained by pawls 33a, 33b engaging with ratchet wheels 30, 31 ; these may be released by overturning a link 34, and the valve then descends. The stop 37 is fitted with a buffer 38, or may function as a dashpot.; In a modification, the rod 14 is keyed to the wheel 23, and rotates in a nut at the upper end of a tube attached to the valve rod. Buffers are fitted at the lower edge of valve ; they may be removed to enable the valve to be removed.

Title:

Improvements in or connected with penstocks, sluice valves and the like Application Number GB19320023694 19320824 Publication Number387951 (A) Application Date August 24, 1932 Publication Date February 16, 1933

Assignee Edwin Ivor Morgan

Paul Sison Ham

Edgar Henry Bence IPCF16K 31/44

F16K 31/53

 

gallery_5000_522_45650.jpg

 

To CRT, Please take this on board and EDUCATE your employees and volunteers.

Your second link doesn't work - it goes to this web site.

 

Dave

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Years ago I remember the lock keeper of the time putting up signs saying that the paddles must be wound down, purely on the basis that because of poor maintenance they sometimes didn't close themselves fully when they were left to drop on their own. He specifically meant that you should allow them to drop and then when they had stopped you should put the windlass back on the spindle and check whether they could be wound down any further. I know this because he told me, personally. Less than a year later BW decided to transfer him elsewhere and his replacement of course misunderstood the notices and instituted the regime of not allowing them to drop. Successive changes of personnel have perpetuated the mistake until we arrive at the present ludicrous situation where anyone who operates the gear correctly is subjected to criticism and insults from those who do not know how it should be done, and the CRT volunteers are the worst offenders because they have been trained by CRT staff and therefore know everything!

Edited by Keeping Up
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I visited Hatton lock 34 both on Friday and today. There was no mention of the lock gear being hydraulic, perhaps because the top had been removed exposing the gearing one of the paddles. However, on Friday I found that one of the CaRT staff present was not aware that these paddles were designed to be self closing and today the same with a volunteer.

Some years ago, I tested self closing at a few locks on the flight and found that the problem seemed to be that paddles would stick on the way down (rather than close too quickly). I wonder if the instructions to wind down are because some of the gear no longer operates as it should.

One thing I was told today was that the 'rod indicators' were a later addition and the diagram supplied by Laurence would tend to support this as they are not shown.

I was told many years ago by the Hatton lock keeper that this type of paddle must always be wound down so I am now wondering if they have a long history of not closing properly with the 'rod indicators' being added so that it could be seen.

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They were designed to be dropped but has poor maintenance compromised this?????

 

There are a few that do drop very quickly, though possibly not quickly enough to do any damage?

There are also one or two that are so stiff they Have to be wound down.

 

The 18 turn info is gratefully received, I always find Hatton very hard work.

Last year we did Hatton and Lapworh in a single day and I had to drink loads of beer to recover.

 

..........Dave

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There is no dobut that this paddle gear was designed to be dropped rather than wound down. HOWEVER that presumes they are in as-new condition with the buffer (item 38) fully functional. In reality, lack of maintenance means that the buffers are sometimes compressed or destroyed and therefore non-functional, resulting in a severe steel on steel (or maybe steel on iron?) jar to the mechanism when they hit the bottom of travel. That, plus the fact that some are reluctant to fully wind down by themselves due to friction, is why one should wind them down. I have certainly dropped them in the past, but the odd CLANG at the bottom has made me change my ways.

 

Of course, they are absolutely not "hydraulic".

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My biggest worry with them is when someone leaves the windlass on them. The chain and square locking mechanism is not very secure and a slight knock can cause it to jump off. The lock winder then tries to grab a rotating handle which has a lot of force behind it, I know I tried and luckily did not break by wrist when it was whacked. I suppose it's like dropping a soldering iron, you only try to catch it once, after that it falls to the floor before you pick it up.

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Interesting video Ray. Where you stuck on the lower cill trying to get in?

 

I didn't take a picture, but on the lower gates you could clearly see the grooves scored in the gates, where boats had only used on gate and missed the gap. The CRT man was dismissive of people who only open one gate, and said since the increase of single handed boaters it is becoming a major cause of leaking gates. Perhaps I'll change my behaviour, although I cannot recall ever hitting the closed gate whenever I have only used one gate.

 

No it wasn't me. It was Mykaskin of this parish.

Bascote Locks are a 3 gate staircase set of locks. Mike was actually leaving the middle gate open and for a while filling two locks at the same time. His boat was in gear at tick over so when the water was deep enough to clear the cill it motored forward.

When this had happened he closed the top paddles and the middle gates then opened the paddles again to fill the top lock to pound level.

 

16352337988_b9234dfeca_o.jpgkr

Edited by Ray T
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My biggest worry with them is when someone leaves the windlass on them. The chain and square locking mechanism is not very secure and a slight knock can cause it to jump off. The lock winder then tries to grab a rotating handle which has a lot of force behind it, I know I tried and luckily did not break by wrist when it was whacked.

But this is the same with all paddle gear. A windlass must always be removed from a raised paddle, irrespective of which canal the paddle gear is on and whether there is a securing device (unless of course there is no securing device or the windlass forms a part of the securing device).

 

My philosophy has always been to never let my windlass leave my person, i.e. it is either in my belt or in my hand.

 

captain.gif

Edited by pete harrison
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Thanks Ray,

 

It was at Bascote that I first saw the Bunbury Shuffle undertaken. I was relatively benefit "canalling" so didn't know what to make of it when confronted with a boat coming the other way. The bloke in the shorter boat next to me lost his temper big time. However the guy coming up knew what he was doing, ordered me into the lower lock, swapped sides and all ended well. Happy days.

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If the buffers are not functional then the paddle gear has not been maintained properly, which is entirely CRT's fault.

Entirely true, however that doesn't help the folk who subsequently encounter the broken paddle not those who suffer in other ways due to funds being diverted to repair the broken paddle. It is a 200+ year old system (well, not those paddles admittedly) and it is unhelpful to take a position that the infrastructure should be used as originally intended without a care because CRT have a duty to fix anything that breaks.

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With regard to lowering the paddles, whether or not they have been maintained they are very heavy. Most paddle gear will lower itself but takes minimal effort from the operator to slow or stop this, I should imagine that a smooth running Ham and Baker gear is almost unstoppable, so regardless of whether dropping it damages the paddle attempting to arrest this damages the operator. I know it's anecdotal but I recall a spokesman for a Warwick Hospital saying they got "one or two windlass injuries every week" in summer.

 

I haven't been this way for a while, but I'm sure I used to let them drop and then check they'd gone all the way - not quite finishing was much more common than a loud clang, and potentially much more disruptive. My parents recall accidentally emptying a pound at Hatton in the 60's when there was still regular traffic, a working boatman assured them they weren't the first and wouldn't be the last.

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Great video Ray, thanks.

 

Very atmospheric (probably all the smoke :) )

 

I love going into Chester by boat. Its like boating in the moat of a castle when you get to the old town walls.

 

Edited to change most to what I meant, moat. Bluddy spillchucker

Edited by cuthound
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