CANAL & RIVER TRUST OUTLINES POLICY FOR BOATERS WITHOUT A HOME MOORING

[cotswoldsman]

i await with bated breath.

You haven't got long to wait

[Higgs]

If the local enforcement officer is someone who can be approached and able to answer questions about cruising patterns, then that officer must have some definitive reference for any given area. It should be available to CC'ers.

[GoodGurl]

You haven't got long to wait

Good and let's hope its not as farcical as the last one.

[jenlyn]

My opinion is that the maps should only be handed out to those in the spotlight.

I see no reason to dish them out to all and sundry.

I don't wish to consult a map everytime I pull my pins. I'm happy with my cruising pattern, and I assume CRT are also, as I've not had a text, phone call, email or ticket.

 

All this fuss about how far is far enough will eventually lead to more and more argument and interpretation.

The law is clear enough if you want it to be.

It's so flippin simple!

[GoodGurl]

My opinion is that the maps should only be handed out to those in the spotlight.

I see no reason to dish them out to all and sundry.

I don't wish to consult a map everytime I pull my pins. I'm happy with my cruising pattern, and I assume CRT are also, as I've not had a text, phone call, email or ticket.

 

All this fuss about how far is far enough will eventually lead to more and more argument and interpretation.

The law is clear enough if you want it to be.

It's so flippin simple!

i agree, if you haven't got anything to hide or not been ticketed then your doing something right.

[Martin Megson]

My opinion is that the maps should only be handed out to those in the spotlight.

I see no reason to dish them out to all and sundry.

I don't wish to consult a map everytime I pull my pins. I'm happy with my cruising pattern, and I assume CRT are also, as I've not had a text, phone call, email or ticket.

 

All this fuss about how far is far enough will eventually lead to more and more argument and interpretation.

The law is clear enough if you want it to be.

It's so flippin simple!

 

As a CCer I fully agree. I chose to CC after retiring to explore this lovely country at my leisure and I'm loving every minute of it.

Have a greeine

[cuthound]

Well I doubt it's going to be easy for visitors to get around London now. All these boats juggling positions to comply with the new rules. It's not exactly going to free up moorings either....just different boats at the same spots.

If people were continuously mooring(a big if) then surely the chances of finding a mooring will be improved, as there will be a space created whilst the ex-CMer is moving from one place to another.

[Happy Bachelor]

As I was a new ccr in May last year and have not received any text email or snail mail can I assume that I am complying with the regs?

[matty40s]

If people were continuously mooring(a big if) then surely the chances of finding a mooring will be improved, as there will be a space created whilst the ex-CMer is moving from one place to another.

I doubt it, someone from a marina will bring their boat out at Easter and leave it on various visitor moorings over the whole summer until it goes back into the marina in October.

[cuthound]

I doubt it, someone from a marina will bring their boat out at Easter and leave it on various visitor moorings over the whole summer until it goes back into the marina in October.

[Midnight]

^{I wonder, where they think a boater should take up a mooring to comply, whether they will help finding such a mooring as there must be a lot of boaters who will want to stay within their current range but there are no available moorings there.}

^Casp'

 

^{Well I doubt it's going to be easy for visitors to get around London now. All these boats juggling positions to comply with the new rules. It's not exactly going to free up moorings either....just different boats at the same spots.}

 

 

That's the elephant in the room. Nobody is really addressing the needs of those who wish/need to stay in one particular place but can't find a suitable mooring. (Genuine CMers???) Maybe C&RT should concentrate on providing more moorings and charging a lot more for a CC licence for those who don't move. A mooring fee size surcharge rather than revoking the licence would focus non-compliers' attention on their real needs without attracting all the bad feelings and bad publicity of a boat being seized and a family made homeless. Visitor moorings would be unaffected as they have a time limit.

 

Those who wish to stay put and pay would be less of a strain on the system and the case against those who simply don't wish to pay for what in essence is a 'free home' mooring/place would be easier for the general public to understand. They wouldn't have their boat seized for non-compliance it would be seized for non-payment - just like my house would be if I fail to pay the mortgage.

 

In a recent case a boater had his boat seized because he claimed C&RT couldn't find him a suitable mooring yet he seemed happy enough on the same mooring I passed him on three years running - not a visitor mooring so no real problem to anyone but C&RT. Can't understand why C&RT didn't simply charge him for the place he so obviously was satisfied with. If they had offered and he had refused to pay the case would have been a lot clearer to laymen like me.

 

I have a home mooring and regrettably only get around part of the system during my annual holiday. I don't have any issue with CMers as there are the same number of boats no matter where they are. Boats juggling for position in London won't help me find a vacant mooring there.

[DeanS]

If the local enforcement officer is someone who can be approached and able to answer questions about cruising patterns, then that officer must have some definitive reference for any given area. It should be available to CC'ers.

 

you made my point in much less words ;-)

[Tony Dunkley]

Mod hat off.

 

What CRT propose is reasonable, but they have forgotten one thing.

 

To give boaters a clear places map, so that boaters know BEFORE any need for CRT to contact them, whether they are in breach of the guidelines or not.

It is slightly/(very?) unfair to not tell boaters what the acceptable cruising pattern in any (wide) area is....and then send them a letter when it's too late. I suspect that by the time you receive your first letter, you are already on a naughty list, that you will never be removed from....until you buy a home mooring. Even then I suspect you'll remain on the list. I fear the enjoyment of boating for many will be eroded because they'll never actually know if they're within the rules or not, and will spend a lot of time looking over their shoulders, when a map would remove any uncertainty, and let people enjoy their boating without any worries.

They won't have forgotten anything, but they could have left out any stipulations about distance or places simply because they don't have the statutory powers to make any.

The statements made by C&RT have been carefully worded to give the appearance of reasonableness, but the real message behind all the flannel is . . . . we're going to continue making up and changing the rules as and when it suits us to, and entirely at our discretion, regardless of the law.

[DeanS]

My opinion is that the maps should only be handed out to those in the spotlight.

I see no reason to dish them out to all and sundry.

I don't wish to consult a map everytime I pull my pins. I'm happy with my cruising pattern, and I assume CRT are also, as I've not had a text, phone call, email or ticket.

 

All this fuss about how far is far enough will eventually lead to more and more argument and interpretation.

The law is clear enough if you want it to be.

It's so flippin simple!

 

in your eyes, but for some it is not as simple as you make out. For example, someone CC-ing around Birmingham. They plan their cruising pattern. They think they're ok. They get a local job, which doesn't pay enough for them to get a marina mooring, so they do everything they can to stick within the CC-ing rules...but they have to watch over their shoulders the whole time....because they actually have no idea. It's not as simple as you make out. Do you want them to rather give up the job, and head for Bath?

[jenlyn]

in your eyes, but for some it is not as simple as you make out. For example, someone CC-ing around Birmingham. They plan their cruising pattern. They think they're ok. They get a local job, which doesn't pay enough for them to get a marina mooring, so they do everything they can to stick within the CC-ing rules...but they have to watch over their shoulders the whole time....because they actually have no idea. It's not as simple as you make out. Do you want them to rather give up the job, and head for Bath?

How many times dean before you get your head around this?

20km is not enough, now that is seemingly the base line.

 

It's only as difficult as people wish to make it.

If people continue to push CRT into a corner, they may retaliate, and impose something utterly ridiculous.

So I will say again, it's only as difficult as people wish to make it. Use some common sense, and if you really like the lifestyle, make a reasonable effort to keep it.

 

My other half worked in central London, I managed to cc from Hertfordshire to Hemel Hempstead, never once had a ticket for the three years.

[Mike Todd]

 

I do agree with bassplayer. Making it even clearer would be an advantage to many and I cannot see what detriment to anyone it would be.

 

Tim

 

Yup agreed.

 

Tim

Beware what ypu wish for. Greater clarity will lead to less flexibility and an expectation that CRT will always pursue enforcement against even the smallest infringement. I suspect that any limit would be set on an estimate of how many defaulters it would catch rather than on any fundamental concept such as 'place'.

 

The statement is also interesting: it makes it clear that it will start with those making the least movement. I suspect its enforcement budget will be well-expired before it gets to more contentious cases! (At least based on the recently cited data)

[MtB]

If CRT cave in and start defining distances, they also have to define timescales.

 

Otherwise the (supposedly) non-compliant amongst us will start saying things like 'yes I know I'm only cruising a three mile stretch this month but back in the summer I did the whole of the Trent and Mersey and any day now I'm planning to set off on a trip to London and back".

 

Hence the need for timescales for cruising the defined distances. The whole thing will turn into an unmitgated mess. A bit like now really I suppose, only far worse

 

 

MtB

[bassplayer]

If people were continuously mooring(a big if) then surely the chances of finding a mooring will be improved, as there will be a space created whilst the ex-CMer is moving from one place to another.

I suspect it will be far worse as many of those CM'ers who used to keep out of the way of official VM's will now moor on them now that they have to move anyway. I've said it before but I think this is going to turn out to be a massive own goal by those who pushed for the changes....but I guess we'll have to wait and and see.

[Mike Todd]

 

 

 

That's the elephant in the room. Nobody is really addressing the needs of those who wish/need to stay in one particular place but can't find a suitable mooring. (Genuine CMers???) Maybe C&RT should concentrate on providing more moorings and charging a lot more for a CC licence for those who don't move. A mooring fee size surcharge rather than revoking the licence would focus non-compliers' attention on their real needs without attracting all the bad feelings and bad publicity of a boat being seized and a family made homeless. Visitor moorings would be unaffected as they have a time limit.

 

Those who wish to stay put and pay would be less of a strain on the system and the case against those who simply don't wish to pay for what in essence is a 'free home' mooring/place would be easier for the general public to understand. They wouldn't have their boat seized for non-compliance it would be seized for non-payment - just like my house would be if I fail to pay the mortgage.

 

In a recent case a boater had his boat seized because he claimed C&RT couldn't find him a suitable mooring yet he seemed happy enough on the same mooring I passed him on three years running - not a visitor mooring so no real problem to anyone but C&RT. Can't understand why C&RT didn't simply charge him for the place he so obviously was satisfied with. If they had offered and he had refused to pay the case would have been a lot clearer to laymen like me.

 

I have a home mooring and regrettably only get around part of the system during my annual holiday. I don't have any issue with CMers as there are the same number of boats no matter where they are. Boats juggling for position in London won't help me find a vacant mooring there.

It is likely that CRT would have to charge at a level that does not create unfair competition with marinas - in any event it will be a considerable investment as it would be necessary, to achieve the objectives you suggest, to provide adequate facilties, water, elsan, rubbish and perhaps mail delivery. It is unlikely that there are many suitable places already in existence that are not already covered by mooring licences. At that level of charging, I suspect than many of those currently considered non-compliant would remain so as they would feel that the new charges are beyond their means.

[rgreg]

My opinion is that the maps should only be handed out to those in the spotlight.

I see no reason to dish them out to all and sundry.

I don't wish to consult a map everytime I pull my pins. I'm happy with my cruising pattern, and I assume CRT are also, as I've not had a text, phone call, email or ticket.

 

All this fuss about how far is far enough will eventually lead to more and more argument and interpretation.

The law is clear enough if you want it to be.

It's so flippin simple!

I agree. My thoughts are that if you need a map to check your cruising pattern you're probably just looking to see how little cruising you can get away with. A genuine CCer won't need to be concerned about the definition of a place.

[Paul C]

Why do you think?

 

I'll ask again: why do YOU think a simple distance is critical? Its been shown quite clearly that CRT cannot, by law, define the distance required and thus refuse licences etc based on insufficient distance. They can only use the legislation as-is, not mould it like putty into what they (might or might not, or might be perceived to) desire. Have a look at the wording of the actual law behind all this. And then have a good read of the guidance for CCers.

 

The 20km talked about in enforcement is an internal trigger which seems to be used to "get you onto their radar" then they'll look at your actual movement pattern and place it alongside the legal requirement (eg place to place) as well as the times at each place. 20km range isn't used in prosecutions or court cases.

 

Yes I know CRT vs Davies was won by CRT and cites a distance but it is not precedent and doesn't carry much weight because the distance was only one strand of a number used by the judge to interpret Davies' intentions.

 

Post #38 reinforces the above.

[DeanS]

For the record...Jenlyn...I do recognise your valid point regarding pushing CRT into a corner...which could lead to greater limits....

[Peter Cruiser]

How many times dean before you get your head around this?

20km is not enough, now that is seemingly the base line.

It's only as difficult as people wish to make it.

If people continue to push CRT into a corner, they may retaliate, and impose something utterly ridiculous.

So I will say again, it's only as difficult as people wish to make it. Use some common sense, and if you really like the lifestyle, make a reasonable effort to keep it.

My other half worked in central London, I managed to cc from Hertfordshire to Hemel Hempstead, never once had a ticket for the three years.

Yes it is possible to work and cc, we commuted into London from Rugby, Stone, Leighton Buzzard to just name a few last summer,. It seems more and more people are boating out of London, and communting in with the earlier post that states Ricky is getting busy, it's only £14 on the oyster card. Have met many new boaters North of Ricky who are boating out of london and commuting in. Many have asked about the WMP displayed in our window and see it as a viable option over the winter as transport link into London are good all along the midland train line running next to the canal.

[DeanS]

I can see where this is heading....eventually boaters who aren't getting letters, will create their own maps....so other boaters can do the same as them...and eventually hundreds of boaters in one area will all be following the same route......until someone gets upset...and CRT sends one of them a letter....so the unofficial map will change, and be shared, and all those boaters will then begin circulating around the new cruising patterns....until someone gets a letter.... eventually when no one is getting letters any longer, the official cruising pattern will be documented as "officially allowed"

 

 

tongue in cheek post. ;-)

[jenlyn]

Yes it is possible to work and cc, we commuted into London from Rugby, Stone, Leighton Buzzard to just name a few last summer,. It seems more and more people are boating out of London, and communting in with the earlier post that states Ricky is getting busy, it's only £14 on the oyster card. Have met many new boaters North of Ricky who are boating out of london and commuting in. Many have asked about the WMP displayed in our window and see it as a viable option over the winter as transport link into London are good all along the midland train line running next to the canal.

I thought you did over 400 miles last year?

It's only 90 from London to Birmingham, so did you do it twice?

I can see where this is heading....eventually boaters who aren't getting letters, will create their own maps....so other boaters can do the same as them...and eventually hundreds of boaters in one area will all be following the same route......until someone gets upset...and CRT sends one of them a letter....so the unofficial map will change, and be shared, and all those boaters will then begin circulating around the new cruising patterns....until someone gets a letter.... eventually when no one is getting letters any longer, the official cruising pattern will be documented as "officially allowed"

 

 

tongue in cheek post. ;-)

Lol. That's exactly how it will be, don't tell CRT though, you'll spoil the fun.