LPG Fridges - new install

[Prairiekid]

I'm a novice boat owner having new equipment installed on a 45' narrowboat. The boat did not come with a fridge on board, so one of my purchases was a Dometic RGE 2100 two way (electric and LPG) fridge. When I asked the marina to install the gas supply to the fridge, they said they couldn't do that because BSS regulations don't allow non-room-sealed appliances. Perhaps I didn't do enough research before I bought this model, but can anyone point me at LPG fridges that are room-sealed? Are they available? If not, what are my options? I'm loathe to rely solely on electricity, since I don't have access to shore power.

 

Thanks!

 

- Pam

 

 

[alan_fincher]

You are being wrongly informed, if it is a private boat.

 

There was a period when the BSS embargoed the use of non room sealed LPG fridges, but they relented on that, and they have been allowed again since at least 2005.

 

Note the above response is just about the BSS - there may be issued if it is a new boat that has to comply with RCD,

 

The room sealed fridges ceased to be available some years ago, so if you are going for new they are not an option.

 

Note Electrolux / Dometic have never ever sols their LPG fridges as being suitable for use in boats, although obviously many thousands have been so used over the years.

[Tony Brooks]

In all fairness I do not think that is a complete answer although the main points are correct. I know that not so many years ago a boat got failed on a new non-balance flued gas fridge. When I clarified this with the BSS they told me that it was because the burner was too close to combustible materials and talked about how in caravans fridges are fitted into "plastic" enclosures.

 

I I were to want to fit a gas fridge I would definitely be trying to extract chapter and verse from the BSS to be ensure no problems with examiners in the future. At the very least I would be lining the aperture with metal or fireboard even though I doubt it would have a practical benefit except in the most extreme case.

[Prairiekid]

Thanks very much for this. Any thoughts on how to get clarity from BSS?

 

And how do I know if I need to comply with RCD?

[alan_fincher]

And how do I know if I need to comply with RCD?

 

Are you fitting out a brand new boat?

 

If there is any prospect that under any circumstances you might ever need to sell within 5 years, then it must be built to comply with RCD, and have all the right paperwork.

 

Even if you have no need to sell in that time, failure to build to RCD may well, (in my view) affect the saleability of that boat on an ongoing basis;

 

I have never owned a boat built since RCD, so can't advise what may, or may not, appky in respect of non room sealed fridges or instantaneous water heaters. Others will hopefully know.

[MtB]

 

Note the above response is just about the BSS - there may be issued if it is a new boat that has to comply with RCD,

 

 

 

In addition, if you want to press the point with your builders, you could ask them to show you the BSS regulation that prevents them fitting the fridge. There isn''t one that I'm aware of, so I don't think they will be able to.

 

The regulation they are thinking of is in PD5482-2005, the standard which gas installations in new boats must meet in order to get RCD compliance.. If you don't want an RCD certificate then those regulations don't apply.

 

One further point you could put to them is how come cookers are allowed? They don't have flues. (Just being mischievous here. PD5482 excludes cooking appliances from the requirement.)

 

 

MtB

[Paul C]

You know how sometimes people decline to do something but give a fake answer to avoid saving face? I suspect that's what's happened here. The marina probably rarely/never gets asked to install gas fridges because the vast majority of installs seems to be electric, so their knowledge of the regulations might be poor, but they won't want to say "we don't fully understand the regulations". Also in addition to simply complying with BSS regs, they'll have liability for the install and might legitimately choose not to do that type of work.

 

It would be interesting to see if they'll install anything gas-fuelled except cookers - for example a water heater.

[Prairiekid]

To clarify, this is a used boat (circa mid-1970s) that I am renovating. The intention is to live aboard full time.

 

I have no specific plans to sell within 5 years, but I can't be sure it wouldn't happen.

 

I don't think this is a question of face-saving - they're already going to fit a new gas-fired water heater. (Though they had to be somewhat forcibly required to admit it was actually room-sealed. They were making an assumption.)

[MtB]

You know how sometimes people decline to do something but give a fake answer to avoid saving face? I suspect that's what's happened here. The marina probably rarely/never gets asked to install gas fridges because the vast majority of installs seems to be electric, so their knowledge of the regulations might be poor, but they won't want to say "we don't fully understand the regulations". Also in addition to simply complying with BSS regs, they'll have liability for the install and might legitimately choose not to do that type of work.

 

It would be interesting to see if they'll install anything gas-fuelled except cookers - for example a water heater.

 

 

Good analysis of what's happening here.

 

Yes would be interesting to see if they'll install an open flue Morco as PD5482 doesn't allow those either.

[b0atman]

Think solar panels suggest min 400watt ideally 600watt just a thought

[MtB]

To clarify, this is a used boat (circa mid-1970s) that I am renovating. The intention is to live aboard full time.

 

 

In that case the firm doing it needs to be Gas Safe Registered.

 

MtB

[blackrose]

.edited

Edited February 12, 2015 by blackrose

[Graham Davis]

Think solar panels suggest min 400watt ideally 600watt just a thought

 

The problem with that is these 2 way fridges are very inefficient on 12v, and will either take a very long time to cool or will only cool to a certain number of degrees below the ambient temperature. They are also very "power hungry"!!

(Experience from having one in a caravan where the 12v is only used when the engine of the tow car is running)

[Tony Brooks]

To clarify, this is a used boat (circa mid-1970s) that I am renovating. The intention is to live aboard full time.

 

I have no specific plans to sell within 5 years, but I can't be sure it wouldn't happen.

 

I don't think this is a question of face-saving - they're already going to fit a new gas-fired water heater. (Though they had to be somewhat forcibly required to admit it was actually room-sealed. They were making an assumption.)

 

 

So you only need be concerned about the BSS PLUS any regulations that apply to dwellings as MtB has pointed out. This includes then being Gassafe registered for LPG & boats. I am not sure how the dwelling regulations go with non-room sealed appliances (apart form cookers) but Mike will.

 

I also have a feeling that it is very difficult to install what I understand to be the only room sealed instant gas water hater in a boat and still comply with the makers instructions, the BSS and the Dwelling regulations. I also think it needs a permanent electrical supply. I could be out of date and competently wrong here but please get the model number of what they propose to fit and than go to the manufacturer's to find out if it is room sealed and the installation limitations & requirements.

[Nestor Espinoza]

Tony,

 

You are correct, it needs 240V supply, the Morco F-11. Let's say I had something to do in choosing the heater, the rationale was to find the most powerful instant water heater available, and since non-room sealed appliances are limited to 11.6kW, then this one was the only option.

 

After speaking with the marina the main issue is not the heater itself, they say it is no different from other heaters, room sealed or not, in that the end of the flue must be 500mm from surface edges and openings, and above head height. The original plan was to install it with the horizontal flue towards the stern deck, but that apparently is not possible. The only option seems to be a vertical flue, which is not removable, but could sort of be made removable.

 

Nes

[Tony Brooks]

Tony,

 

You are correct, it needs 240V supply, the Morco F-11. Let's say I had something to do in choosing the heater, the rationale was to find the most powerful instant water heater available, and since non-room sealed appliances are limited to 11.6kW, then this one was the only option.

 

After speaking with the marina the main issue is not the heater itself, they say it is no different from other heaters, room sealed or not, in that the end of the flue must be 500mm from surface edges and openings, and above head height. The original plan was to install it with the horizontal flue towards the stern deck, but that apparently is not possible. The only option seems to be a vertical flue, which is not removable, but could sort of be made removable.

 

Nes

 

And that should almost certainly prevent it being fitted into residential accommodation. I do not thing a Gassafe engineer would countenance tampering with a flue. I also think that in the event of a CO accident anyone who contrived to have the flue messed about with would be right in the HSE's sights. That is without considering any guarantee implications. My advice is think again and I hope MIke will comment - I may be wrong.

[Paul C]

There was a recent thread here: http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=72723where I postulated, incorrectly as it turns out, that its difficult or impossible to nowadays achieve a satisfactory install of a gas instant water heater on a narrowboat while not altering the flue etc. In summary, the D61 is the lower model but some have had success with it; the F11 needs a too-large flue; but the G11E exists which has a higher output and the same flue as the D61.

[blackrose]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but does anyone know the difference between

 

This: http://www.obrienscamping.co.uk/caravan_fridges/RM5310.htm

 

and this which is nearly half the price:

 

http://www.cooltechleisure.co.uk/product/dometic-combicool-rf-60-3-way-cabinet-fridge/

 

Gas consumption on the Combicool is a bit higher, but there must be more to it than that?

 

I would either be using it on mains on shore power or on gas - I wouldn't be using it on 12v.

There was a recent thread here: http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=72723where I postulated, incorrectly as it turns out, that its difficult or impossible to nowadays achieve a satisfactory install of a gas instant water heater on a narrowboat while not altering the flue etc.

 

Really? I managed to install one on my boat easily enough without altering the flue.

Edited February 12, 2015 by blackrose

[Bod]

Hi

What will the cost benefit over an electrical fridge be, once the fitting cost of the gas fridge has been added to the purchase price?

 

Bod

[cereal tiller]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but does anyone know the difference between

 

This: http://www.obrienscamping.co.uk/caravan_fridges/RM5310.htm

 

and this which is nearly half the price:

 

http://www.cooltechleisure.co.uk/product/dometic-combicool-rf-60-3-way-cabinet-fridge/

 

Gas consumption on the Combicool is a bit higher, but there must be more to it than that?

 

Really? I managed to install one on my boat easily enough without altering the flue.

The more expensive one has a Freezer/icebox compatment

My Boat has one of the dometic fridges without the freezer box,cost £300 a year ago,price is even less now!

CT

[Paul C]

 

Really? I managed to install one on my boat easily enough without altering the flue.

 

Narrowboat or widebeam? What was the resulting air draft?

[blackrose]

The more expensive one has a Freezer/icebox compatment

My Boat has one of the dometic fridges without the freezer box,cost £300 a year ago,price is even less now!

CT

Thanks. I think my 10 year old cheapo gas fridge has died. Would you recommend the Dometic Combicool RF60?

[cereal tiller]

Thanks. I think my 10 year old cheapo gas fridge has died. Would you recommend the Dometic Combicool RF60?

Yes,the one i have works well,uses a 13Kg propane cyl. in 35-45 days,depending on ambient temp.

One small discrepancy in the description,it is not absolutely silent!

The flame has a high/low ability,and the Bi-metallic device which switches it makes an audible click each time the flame changes height

Not an irritation.

CT

[blackrose]

 

Narrowboat or widebeam? What was the resulting air draft?

 

Widebeam.

 

The resulting airdraft of the boat was no higher than before I installed it. You can see the flue here on the stern starboard side of the roof.

 

 

But, even if the flue did increase the air draft of the boat, if you're sensible and have a calorifier as well as a gas water heater, then you can simply turn the gas water heater off, take the flue off (just as you might do for your stove), switch hot water supply to calorifier and then air draft isn't a concern.

Edited February 12, 2015 by blackrose

[alan_fincher]

Hi

What will the cost benefit over an electrical fridge be, once the fitting cost of the gas fridge has been added to the purchase price?

 

Bod

I'm not sure I'm understanding the question correctly, but I'll try.

 

You are not generally, I think, going to spend less overall on purchase and installation, if you opt for LPG. In fact looking at Mike's price for the model of gas fridge with freezer, (which also seems to be significantly less demanding on gas), that bit may cost you more.

 

The difference is in operation. Even the most efficient electrically run compressor fridges need significant amounts of battery power to keep them going, (assuming you are not on a 230v land line) - power audits often indicate they can be around half the total Amp hour requirements for the boat.

 

By using an LPG fridge you could perhaps halve the demands on your battery bank.

 

Running a gas fridge is quoted as up to around 250 grams a day of gas, so about 52 days from a 13Kg calor, if you were using it for nothing else - so about 50 pence per day. That might be less than say lots of running of a petrol generator to keep batteries in good condition if the fridge is electric, possibly, and may also be an option for people not on the boat at times they can charge batteries at "sociable" times.

 

It will depend person to person - your usage patterns, and how much you boat, versus spending days not moving. Of course solar is a way of trying to address the battery power issues, but if you are buying extra solar just to counter the extra demands of an electric fridge, you could reasonably say that the cost of that solar is part of the costs of providing the fridge.

 

(Or you could just buy UHT milk, and drink warm beer!)