Lister-Blackstone G2 gearbox transplant.

[MoominPapa]

Melaleuca's gearbox has been rumbly for a good while now, and when I got around to taking the cover off to have a look, I found that the output shaft had about 8mm end-float, which really ain't right.

 

With RLWP's help and encouragement I've dismantled it enough to discover that the bearing between the main and reduction boxes is severely tired. The box has been apart and bodged at sometime in the past, and I think the root cause of the problem is that the bearing carrier and reduction box has been moving and misaligning that bearing, causing it to wear badly.

 

I have a spare engine and gearbox in the garage at home (Ebay!) and I've now removed the gearbox from that and inspected it. Fortunately, it appears to be in very good nick, so there a plan in progress to transplant the whole spare box to the boat. The transplant includes both halves of the aluminium main gearbox case, because the old one is corroded and worn, which is the cause and/or effect of the moving reduction box.

 

The "new" box case is the progress of being cleaned, and painted.

 

A couple of questions for people who have been there before.

 

1) What's the size of the o-rings on the bearing carrier? Are spares available somewhere?

 

2) The brass plate warning you to only engage reverse at engine idle had loads of corrosion underneath, so I've drilled out the rivets and removed it. What's the best way to out it back? The rivets appear to be brass/copper. I could use small brass machine screws, but I'm worried about putting nuts on the back in case that comes lose and drop into the box.

 

3) Similarly, the serial number plate on the reduction box is missing a rivet. The reduction box case is cast iron, and the remaining rivet looks ferrous and doesn't seem to go right through. What's the best way to replace these rivets?

 

Cheers,

 

MP.

[RLWP]

Hmmm, I bought some of those o rings recently. I wonder what size they were?

 

Richard

[frangar]

Not quite the same but for the joint between my 3G box and the reduction gear I brought an o ring kit and made my own....it's quite a handy thing to have but the glue is a tad pricey.....does help when you are in a pickle tho.

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[MoominPapa]

Further question. I need a source for the oil seals on the gear-selection shaft. Lister part no 294-2660, which, according to the parts list is a "GACO MS14"

 

MP.

[springy]

Is this the sort of thing you want to hold the plates on ?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/371180345079?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=108&chn=ps&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108

 

springy

[MoominPapa]

Is this the sort of thing you want to hold the plates on ?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/371180345079?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=108&chn=ps&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108

 

springy

Genius! Looks perfect, thanks.

 

MP.

[Timleech]

Melaleuca's gearbox has been rumbly for a good while now, and when I got around to taking the cover off to have a look, I found that the output shaft had about 8mm end-float, which really ain't right.

 

With RLWP's help and encouragement I've dismantled it enough to discover that the bearing between the main and reduction boxes is severely tired. The box has been apart and bodged at sometime in the past, and I think the root cause of the problem is that the bearing carrier and reduction box has been moving and misaligning that bearing, causing it to wear badly.

 

I have a spare engine and gearbox in the garage at home (Ebay!) and I've now removed the gearbox from that and inspected it. Fortunately, it appears to be in very good nick, so there a plan in progress to transplant the whole spare box to the boat. The transplant includes both halves of the aluminium main gearbox case, because the old one is corroded and worn, which is the cause and/or effect of the moving reduction box.

 

The "new" box case is the progress of being cleaned, and painted.

 

A couple of questions for people who have been there before.

 

1) What's the size of the o-rings on the bearing carrier? Are spares available somewhere?

 

2) The brass plate warning you to only engage reverse at engine idle had loads of corrosion underneath, so I've drilled out the rivets and removed it. What's the best way to out it back? The rivets appear to be brass/copper. I could use small brass machine screws, but I'm worried about putting nuts on the back in case that comes lose and drop into the box.

 

3) Similarly, the serial number plate on the reduction box is missing a rivet. The reduction box case is cast iron, and the remaining rivet looks ferrous and doesn't seem to go right through. What's the best way to replace these rivets?

 

Cheers,

 

MP.

 

I have a sound aluminium lower gear case for a 2G box, for which I'm open to (modest) offers, I have a feeling that one or two of the mounting holes for the reduction box may need helicoiling which is why it was put aside (prob 40 years ago!), might or might not have the upper half.

 

I think they are known as 'drive rivets', they have a parallel shank with a sort of a coarse thread. Sometime to be found on ebay.

 

Edit to ad a link to a US source

 

Not quite the same but for the joint between my 3G box and the reduction gear I brought an o ring kit and made my own....it's quite a handy thing to have but the glue is a tad pricey.....does help when you are in a pickle tho.

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

 

Usually just SuperGlue.

 

Tim

Edited February 5, 2015 by Timleech

[frangar]

I've tried superglue Tim as it's got the same active ingredients as the silly expensive loctite stuff but have found its not as good if the o ring gets hot or exposed to some oils...funnily enough water seems to be the most aggressive to superglue!...maybe I need a different brand of superglue!....

 

Any reccomendarios?

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[MoominPapa]

I have a sound aluminium lower gear case for a 2G box, for which I'm open to (modest) offers, I have a feeling that one or two of the mounting holes for the reduction box may need helicoiling which is why it was put aside (prob 40 years ago!), might or might not have the upper half.

Thanks for the offer, Tim, but I'm OK for this. My spare box includes a good case, both top and bottom.

 

The box on the boat is very corroded at the bottom, and has lost a lot of metal and strength from the bottom reduction box mountings. I was told that the engine started life in the harbour launch in Westernport Bay, Australia, and was found, many years later, under a tarpaulin in the corner of a field. Looks like sitting in a damp Australian field took its toll......

 

I was under the impression that the case is engine-type specific, certainly the FR box I have looks externally different to Blackstone boxes on JPs and HA/HBs that I've seen. Are the cases ally on all engines? I assume the guts are the same on all engines, but there do seem to be variations there too. Both the boxes I have (which are very near engine numbers built in 1956) have metal/metal clutches and brake bands, unlike the Ferodo-lined ones that Richard showed in a recent thread.

 

Cheers,

 

MP.

[Timleech]

Thanks for the offer, Tim, but I'm OK for this. My spare box includes a good case, both top and bottom.

 

The box on the boat is very corroded at the bottom, and has lost a lot of metal and strength from the bottom reduction box mountings. I was told that the engine started life in the harbour launch in Westernport Bay, Australia, and was found, many years later, under a tarpaulin in the corner of a field. Looks like sitting in a damp Australian field took its toll......

 

I was under the impression that the case is engine-type specific, certainly the FR box I have looks externally different to Blackstone boxes on JPs and HA/HBs that I've seen. Are the cases ally on all engines? I assume the guts are the same on all engines, but there do seem to be variations there too. Both the boxes I have (which are very near engine numbers built in 1956) have metal/metal clutches and brake bands, unlike the Ferodo-lined ones that Richard showed in a recent thread.

 

Cheers,

 

MP.

 

 

It was a general offer, just in case anyone reading this was stuck for a casing. This one came off an HB2.

 

There were a number of changes made to improve the boxes, including changing from metal to metal clutches to metal to Ferodo.

I don't know the answer re the casings being specific to engine types, the ones I've dealt with have all been on JPs or H range engines.

The JP boxes (3G & 4G) have iron casings. I think the CE used a 2G box, which would almost certainly have had an iron casing.

 

Tim

Edited February 5, 2015 by Timleech

[MoominPapa]

It was a general offer, just in case anyone reading this was stuck for a casing. This one came off an HB2.

And in the same vein, if anyone wants to make me a modest offer, my spare engine has a Lister "rubber gear" raw-water pump for which I have no use. I've removed it from the engine and the drive gears look fine. I imagine it will need at least some new rubber pump gears.

 

MP.

[MoominPapa]

Next questions for those who've been there already.

 

As far as I can see, it's impossible to move the gear cluster far enough back to disengage it from the crankshaft without removing the two-piece cross shaft, the selector fork and the reverse lever. Unfortunately, the engine beds stop me from pulling the cross-shaft sections out of the gearbox, or re-installing them once the bottom case is bolted to the engine.

 

I could jack up the engine high enough to clear the beds, but I'd have to shave a whole herd of yaks to do that, so I'm look for alternatives.

 

I'm thinking about leaving the gear cluster in place, unbolting the lower case and withdrawing is backwards, and then pulling the gear cluster off the crankshaft. Is that even possible, or will I find something else foul? The gear cluster is bloody heavy, is there a risk of damage if I leave it supported only by the bushes in the crank gear?

 

Reassembly would be reverse of removal. ie shove gear cluster on the end of the crank, then bolt the lower casing in below it.

 

There is a fairly substantial mounting for the exhaust system at roof level directly above where the gear box goes, so I wondered about hanging the gear cluster from that, using a chain hoist, to take the bulk of the weight.

 

Comments?

 

MP.

[Alf Roberts]

the gear cluster comes out, relatively easily once everything else is removed.

 

it's not so very heavy. I can certainly manouver it.

everyrhing that is except the bottom case. that remains in place.

you won't get the cluster out without removing the cross shafts. they are in two pieces so a lot shorter once uncoupled.

 

I realise this doesn't directly answer your question and I haven't thought about disassembly that way about. my imoression is that you would have the same problem, the cluster won't come out or go back in until the forks and shafts are removed.

 

I hope this is not too garbled, I'm on my phone on the bus.

 

what are the beds made of?

[MoominPapa]

the gear cluster comes out, relatively easily once everything else is removed.

 

it's not so very heavy. I can certainly manouver it.

I've lifted the cluster out of the spare box in the garage no problem, on the boat I'm going to be on my knees, working sideways at arms length. I think that will be more difficult.

everyrhing that is except the bottom case. that remains in place.

The bottom case has to come out anyway: the one in the boat is faulty, and needs to be replaced with the one from the spare box.

you won't get the cluster out without removing the cross shafts. they are in two pieces so a lot shorter once uncoupled.

 

I realise this doesn't directly answer your question and I haven't thought about disassembly that way about. my imoression is that you would have the same problem, the cluster won't come out or go back in until the forks and shafts are removed.

 

I hope this is not too garbled, I'm on my phone on the bus.

 

what are the beds made of?

Oak, with 1/4 inch steel plates on top

 

MP.

[frangar]

You will need to get the cross shafts out if you want to remove the box in bits....the alternative is taking the box out as one unit...unbolt the case from the engine...slide back..etc.....that's not light bit of kit....but lighter than my 3G!

 

I had to do some surgery to my fit out to drift the cross shafts out.

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[Timleech]

If you're concerned about the handling the weight when lifting it out in one piece, you could drill through the roof for an eyebolt and use a pul-lift or similar hoisting device. The actual weight is not big in lifting tackle terms. Just put a bolt and nut through the hole in the roof afterwards. Proper caution necessary if your roof is lined, in terms of checking for wiring, framing etc. and put a plate washer on top if you think distorting the roof might be an issue.

 

Tim

[MoominPapa]

Further question. I need a source for the oil seals on the gear-selection shaft. Lister part no 294-2660, which, according to the parts list is a "GACO MS14"

 

MP.

Bumping my own question here. I've just bought two, allegedly, GACO MS14 seals from a place in Leeds, at vast expense, and when they arrived they're clearly too small.

 

I guess I'm going to have to work from the shaft and housing dimensions.

 

 

MP.

[Timleech]

Bumping my own question here. I've just bought two, allegedly, GACO MS14 seals from a place in Leeds, at vast expense, and when they arrived they're clearly too small.

 

I guess I'm going to have to work from the shaft and housing dimensions.

 

 

MP.

 

If you go to a bearing/trasmission supplier with shaft size, housing bore and depth they should be able to order something in for you.

 

Tim

[MoominPapa]

 

If you go to a bearing/trasmission supplier with shaft size, housing bore and depth they should be able to order something in for you.

 

Tim

Measuring carefully, it's 1.25" x 2.00" x 0.43", which reassuringly seems to be a standard size available from Simply Bearings.

 

Thanks Tim.

 

Cheers,

 

MP.

[MoominPapa]

Right, it's my thread, so I get to use it to grump.

 

Today is the day for reassembly. The gearbox is a set of subassemblies in the back of the car, and I've just cleaned off the mating faces on the engine and checked, to find that I either failed to make, or left behind, the gasket between the bottom case and the engine. If I left it behind it's at home, 40 miles away. My gasket paper supply is in the same place.

 

Grrrrrr.

 

I suppose if this is the obligatory set-back to placate the gods, it's not so bad.

 

Note to self: don't forget the bush!

 

MP.

[madcat]

I feel your pain , I've left stuff at home ( approx 26 miles away) or on the boat when it should be at home.

 

Any chance of photos , I like stories with pictures

[Timleech]

Right, it's my thread, so I get to use it to grump.

 

Today is the day for reassembly. The gearbox is a set of subassemblies in the back of the car, and I've just cleaned off the mating faces on the engine and checked, to find that I either failed to make, or left behind, the gasket between the bottom case and the engine. If I left it behind it's at home, 40 miles away. My gasket paper supply is in the same place.

 

Grrrrrr.

 

I suppose if this is the obligatory set-back to placate the gods, it's not so bad.

 

Note to self: don't forget the bush!

 

MP.

 

Unfortunately the obvious 'nip out & buy some gasket paper' isn't as straightforward as it used to be. Some motor factors will give you a blank look if you ask for it, or offer tiny sheets which are of very limited use on older, physically bigger, engines.

 

Tim

[madcat]

Chart paper ( old navigation charts ) are handy for making paper joints . I don't have any left unfortunately.

 

One of the blokes at our place used that black gasket goo instead of paper on the same job. We used the gaskets that came with the rest of the spares ordered for the gearbox.

[MoominPapa]

Unfortunately the obvious 'nip out & buy some gasket paper' isn't as straightforward as it used to be. Some motor factors will give you a blank look if you ask for it, or offer tiny sheets which are of very limited use on older, physically bigger, engines.

I considered it, and decided that I could easily spend as much time and petrol looking for a local source as it takes to drive home and back. The size point is a good one too: this gasket needs larger than an A4 sheet. I can see no sign of the a gasket left behind at home, so I've probably had brain fade and failed to make one when I did the others. I have acres of paper now, so after a swift bacon butty will be able to get on.

 

MP.

Any chance of photos , I like stories with pictures

I'll see what I can do.

 

MP.

[MoominPapa]

Some photos from todays activity for Madcat.

 

Here the straps around the exhaust up in the roof for the cunning plan.

and the straps at engine level, to support the gear cluster.

The case bottom half, ready to go, with gear-change lever and shaft already installed, since the engine beds obstruct them once it's in place.

The pesky missing gasket, stuck in place with wellseal.

Success! The gear cluster was hung from the straps, adjusted so it was level and would swing back into engagement with the engine pinion, then the bottom case was offered up from below, and both parts moved back together until the case was on the studs and the gear cluster on the crankshaft pinion.

All bolted up and self supporting.

 

I've installed the selector fork and reverse rocker and the oil rain pipe and bolted down the engine mounts, but no pics of those.

 

Tomorrow, the reduction box goes back.

 

A question for the experts. Is the reverse rocker installed in different sides, depending on the direction of engine rotation?

 

MP.