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evicted for living on a leisure mooring


14skipper

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So long as your bro knows you live there I can't see a problem!

It isn't. I've lived like that for the last 10 years. I'm not sure it's kosher though, since TV licensing is a bit of a grey area. You actually DO have to have a place for that, I think, with a regular license.

 

Everything else has worked out fine, although many folk might not want their mail opening for them. I'm ok with that.

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The bit I've highlighted may be true in practice, but as far as the planning system is concerned it is the mooring which is residential not the boat, and that is likely to be true of any contract that stipulates how many nights you may spend on board at the marina. The concern is that you are not living at the mooring, not whether you are living on the boat.

You do not need 'residential' status to live on your boat on a marina. If the owner is amenable that is enough. The council will want to inspect a leisure operators records that should show all moorers home addresses which is all the information the operator is compelled to provide to prove his leisure status.

Councils then go after anyone they happen across or on suspicion or on 'information received', who they suspect of living aboard with no main residence elsewhere. But - if the operator is in the habit of subletting a mooring on the marina (while registered user is cruising) to a visiting boat who's residential status can not be verified - and - the marina owner does this on a regular basis then only one mooring based council tax levy is charged to the marina owner.

What happens (informally) is that the cost is recouped from all liveaboards on an equal share basis sometime for as little as £50 or so depending on the numbers.

BWML like to give the impression they pay council tax for each residential boater - but they don't - they use that excuse for their high mooring fees. Some 'residential moorings' however, don't even have residents on board , but to wealthier owners they offer a greater degree security.

 

Getting back to evictions - that is always the right of the owners and the conditions in the agreement signed by the moorer.

Edited by Dreadnaught
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I think it was in the minds of the marina owners that they still wanted to encourage winter moorers, at the time when they were planning to go residential with some moorings.

 

 

Prior to the recent move towards some residential moorings at this marina, it was generally overlooked, how much time a person lived aboard. Actually, I haven't heard of or seen any evidence to suggest the 6 month rule is being applied. It doesn't make that much sense for a marina to kick out regular custom.

I moor at the Marina that you mention. I think a number of boats will be leaving in March. As this was the defined winter mooring period from October - March which would give you the 6 months you speak about. This would also tie into the people who chose not to be residential at the marina they have had their 6 month winter stay and will be leaving next month.

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We are in a BWML marina and they have very clear guidance on the leisure / residential situation and, in my mind, are not out to 'rape the punters'.

 

Leisure - you can liveaboard 365/366 days per year on your boat, on the mooring if you pay Council Tax on a house.

 

Residential - you live aboard 365/366 days per year on a mooring with planning permission for residential use and you pay CT which is included in the mooring fees.

 

A residential mooring (including CT, pump-outs etc etc) is £3799

A leisure mooring (excluding CT, pumpouts etc) for a 72 foot boat is £3300, for a 66 foot boat is £3000

You can put you own prissy interpretation on the use of the word screw but using the word 'rape' is unworthy.

Have you seen a CT demand addressed to you that has been paid by BWML? You should ask them to see a copy receipt.

  • Greenie 1
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I moor at the Marina that you mention. I think a number of boats will be leaving in March. As this was the defined winter mooring period from October - March which would give you the 6 months you speak about. This would also tie into the people who chose not to be residential at the marina they have had their 6 month winter stay and will be leaving next month.

 

 

Either that or will be finding alternative accommodation and keep the moorings as leisure, until next October.

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It isn't. I've lived like that for the last 10 years. I'm not sure it's kosher though, since TV licensing is a bit of a grey area. You actually DO have to have a place for that, I think, with a regular license. Everything else has worked out fine, although many folk might not want their mail opening for them. I'm ok with that.

 

 

It would get complicated if "your brother" lived alone and claimed single occupancy council tax relief or if "your brother" was claiming any kind of benefit and not declaring "you" lived in the same house.

 

We are in a BWML marina and they have very clear guidance on the leisure / residential situation and, in my mind, are not out to 'rape the punters'.

Leisure - you can liveaboard 365/366 days per year on your boat, on the mooring if you pay Council Tax on a house.

Residential - you live aboard 365/366 days per year on a mooring with planning permission for residential use and you pay CT which is included in the mooring fees.

A residential mooring (including CT, pump-outs etc etc) is £3799

A leisure mooring (excluding CT, pumpouts etc) for a 72 foot boat is £3300, for a 66 foot boat is £3000

 

Clear guidance hmmmm - not too sure that's what the mooring definition actually means, it's a bit vague.

 

<quote from BWML mooring definitions>

Non residential approved status moorings, allowing unlimited leisure use within the marina. The vessel will be accommodated within the marina for 365 days within any one year. This is not a 365 day residential mooring although stays on boats summer and winter is an expectation with confirmation of residency away from the marina to be supplied upon request from BWML. Vessels will regularly leave berths to refuel, pump out and cruise.

</quote>

 

Does the phrase "The vessel will be accommodated within the marina for 365 days within any one year." mean you can stay on itor just that the vessel can be berthed in the marina?

 

The reason we moved from BWML was the interpretation of some of their rules culminating in a huge price hikes if you want to visit each weekend (Grade 2

 

<quote from BWML mooring definitions>

Non residential approved status mooring utilised for leisure customers with occasional long holiday stays. Customers who predominantly utilise their craft between April – October each year with occasional maintenance visits during November – March. Overnight stays between 1 November – 31 March are not permitted without the authorisation of the Local Manager. Local variation will be subject to management approval.

</quote>

Never tested the "without permission" bit as we simply moved to a private marina saving nearly £2000 in the process for better maintained facilities, less red tape and a lot less restrictions.

 

BWML only after your money?
They certainly seemed to be at the marina where we were originally moored.

 

Edited to say something seems awry with the multi-quote system

Edited by Midnight
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The OP was asking about living on the cut on presumably, a long-term mooring (I think). CRT cannot class a mooring as 'Residential' if it does not have facilities (elec, water etc).

 

If you also have bricks n mortar and/or a postal address where council tax is being paid, then that satisfies the law. I've known many families living on the cut whereby the kid/s have even gone to the local school and, myself included, been registered at a local GP surgery.

 

It's never been an issue.

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Midnight - Our BWML Marina only has the two grades - Residential and Leisure - non of this "Diamond", 2nd class, Grade 2 or "hardstanding"

 

I find the guidance quite clear :

 

Non residential approved status moorings, allowing unlimited leisure use within the marina. The vessel will be accommodated within the marina for 365 days within any one year. This is not a 365 day residential mooring although stays on boats summer and winter is an expectation with confirmation of residency away from the marina to be supplied upon request from BWML. Vessels will regularly leave berths to refuel, pump out and cruise.

 

 

1) This is not a RESIDENTIAL mooring - it does not have planning permission, you do not get a post box or the right to use the address for Voting, Doctor, you do not pay council tax etc..

 

2) Staying on the boat Summer & Winter is EXPECTED (maybe Spring & Autumn its not expected ???) provided you give evidence of residency elsewhere. I was given the example of CT as being evidence, but if you are in rented property maybe a copy of the 'rent-book' would suffce.

 

3) You need to move away from your berth to re-fuel, pump-out or cruise.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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Yes, Councils CAN and DO take action. There are 4 moorings where we are, and all 4 were created as leisure moorings. They are not CRT-owned, it is private land, but they are on the GU which of course is CRT.

 

There were 2 complaints to the council. One was from the ramblers who said that the boats spoiled the look of the canal, one was from the anglers who said that the boats spoiled their enjoyment of their fishing.

 

The council investigated and decided that the complaints were outside their remit, but the enforcement officer reported that there was a washing line on one plot and a flower bed on another, both of which were contrary to the agreed usage of the land which was Agricultural, and served notice requiring the land owners to apply for change of use to Garden. The application was then refused, possibly because the chairmen of the ramblers and the anglers were both on the Council, on the basis that a garden could only exist as an adjunct to a Residential property. The land owners were then told they must apply for Residential permission or be evicted. Guess what, the application was refused (the expression "hordes of waterborne gypsies rampaging through the village" was used by objectors including the two groups I've already mentioned) but was eventually granted on appeal primarily because the boats had been residential for more than 10 years before the complaints.

 

Two of the boats remained residential and pay Council tax. We did not apply for residential permission because we don't live on board at the mooring and didn't want to pay Council tax, so the Council tried to prove that it was a Holiday Home upon which they could tax us. When that failed they tried to assess us for business rates on the basis that as landowners we were effectively leasing the mooring to ourselves; that attempt also failed, they have promised to "get us somehow" when they've thought of a way.

 

Meanwhile the 4th mooring which is also classed as non-residential has gained a resident; nobody has told the Council yet.

Edited by Keeping Up
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Not according to Magpie Patrick :

 

The problem with that is I don't - I live in lodgings. Middle Class think coming to the fore again

 

Indeed I don't - I pay my landlady rent, she pays council tax. As there are already two people in the house, (My landlady and her son) council tax doesn't come into the equation for me. My name is not on a council tax bill or (I don't think) the electoral register at this location. As it happens I've lived where I live for over a year but lodging is often rather itinerant. moving from one room to another.

 

At the moment, I don't live on either boat, indeed I don't get to spend that much time on them, but I don't "have a home" in the conventional sense. In 2014 I spent more than 7 nights in a row at six different places (two of them my two boats). I didn't spend more than 21 consecutive nights anywhere although I probably spent more nights in my lodgings than anywhere else.

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Yes, Councils CAN and DO take action. There are 4 moorings where we are, and all 4 were created as leisure moorings. They are not CRT-owned, it is private land, but they are on the GU which of course is CRT.

 

There were 2 complaints to the council. One was from the ramblers who said that the boats spoiled the look of the canal, one was from the anglers who said that the boats spoiled their enjoyment of their fishing.

 

The council investigated and decided that the complaints were outside their remit, but the enforcement officer reported that there was a washing line on one plot and a flower bed on another, both of which were contrary to the agreed usage of the land which was Agricultural, and served notice requiring the land owners to apply for change of use to Garden. The application was then refused, possibly because the chairmen of the ramblers and the anglers were both on the Council, on the basis that a garden could only exist as an adjunct to a Residential property. The land owners were then told they must apply for Residential permission or be evicted. Guess what, the application was refused (the expression "hordes of waterborne gypsies rampaging through the village" was used by objectors including the two groups I've already mentioned) but was eventually granted on appeal primarily because the boats had been residential for more than 10 years before the complaints.

 

Two of the boats remained residential and pay Council tax. We did not apply for residential permission because we don't live on board at the mooring and didn't want to pay Council tax, so the Council tried to prove that it was a Holiday Home upon which they could tax us. When that failed they tried to assess us for business rates on the basis that as landowners we were effectively leasing the mooring to ourselves; that attempt also failed, they have promised to "get us somehow" when they've thought of a way.

 

Meanwhile the 4th mooring which is also classed as non-residential has gained a resident; nobody has told the Council yet.

This happened because the council was cornered into it by 1 or 2 spiteful individuals. If you think council workers have nothing better to do that pursue vindictive grudges, you should spend a day at my desk. (Today I lost a highly contentious 'planning appeal'. Ho hum...

People in rented property pay Council Tax as well you know!

 

 

Dave

Not always, as well I know.

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I recall a few years ago that Huntingdon District Council found that a number of houseboats, non powered, were being lived on all year round when planning permission was only for holiday use, I think. There were any number of meetings and discussions but agreement was made in the end that those who had lived there for a number of years could continue to do so but if they sold the houseboat on it reverted to holiday use.

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Touche either way they will not be allowed to live on the boat at the Marina especially as the management will know who these people are..

 

 

It's a liveaboard dilemma. Not very likely that those not on residential will have an option of alternative accommodation. This is my home ground and I put my name down for residential straight away. Even later, when I have the time to cruise, I'm considering keeping the mooring as a base. Looks like there will be a few more gaps come march.

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They, CRT, want us all to be in a marina, a BWML private profit marina, and pay rent for an unlawful mooring. And, yet , they claim they are not a housing authority. They're not. They're 'slum landlords'. Charging people for living in their own homes in cramped conditions with minimal facilities where you have to 'keep your head down' and pretend you don't live there. Encouraging the development of 'camps'/marinas, taking them over by excessive connection charges, and herding boaters, or their boats, into them to get rent. Or allowing 'mooring arrangements' whereby they get rent for not, actually, providing a mooring thereby renting the same space more than once. It's a scam. Another BW/CRT scam. Just like landlords of B and B properties sign up homeless people to get housing benefit payments for phantom 'tenants'.

Here are some paragraphs from a draft document entitled: BW RESIDENTIAL MOORING POLICY - 11 August 2009

Provision of berths for residential use.

5 Whilst there are many different patterns and degrees of living afloat, this policy relates to long-term moorings where the moored boat is used as someone's sole or primary residence. This use requires planning permission.

7 The supply of long-term mooring sites where residency is permitted (i.e. sites where planning permission has been granted for residential use by the Local Planning Authority) is very limited (for example around 40 out of BW's long-term mooring sites are designated for residential use).

Unauthorised residency at long-term leisure moorings.

11 As explained above, a mooring for a boat used as someone's sole or primary residence requires planning consent. Therefore a boat occupied as a primary residence at a long-term leisure mooring would normally constitute (a) a breach of planning control and therefore a breach of BW's mooring agreement or lease with an operator.

Note relating to BW's mooring agreement: Condition 8. You must comply with the conditions of any planning permission for the Mooring Site and comply with relevant laws, byelaws, site rules and special conditions, including any concerning your private use of land at the mooring site.

 

 

14 If BW knows there is unauthorised residential use (e.g. we receive housing benefit as payment for mooring fees) it does not mean we are committing an offence by permitting the use to continue, but it does mean we are vulnerable to enforcement action. LPA's expect BW, as navigation authority and land-owner of the waterway, to control and regulate activity at mooring sites and they consider us to have an interest in privately-operated as well as our own directly-managed sites when they consider planning enforcement.

17 The opinion of some is that it's 'breaking the rules', avoiding council tax and 'unfair'. Others, however, believe that if the site is tidy and there's no harm being done, it's not a problem and can provide a useful presence.

Enforcement (by BW or the LPA) brings with it a significant risk of simply moving the unauthorised residential use elsewhere on the waterway, or possibly causing homelessness.

24 We acknowledge that unauthorised residential use at long-term leisure mooring is contrary to planning control and potentially a breach of BW's mooring agreement or lease.

26 Boating customers should be fully aware of all relevant issues and regulations relating to living on their boat. They should understand that by living on their boat at a long-term leisure mooring, they risk enforcement action by the LPA and by BW.

34 We will require all new customers taking up a BW leisure mooring to confirm their understanding that if they use a leisure mooring as their primary residence they put themselves at risk of enforcement action.

 

'Long term leisure mooring' also includes marina mooring.

So, people living on boats are subject to enforcement action for not having a mooring and are subject to rules that are punitive in intent and impossible to abide by. If they have a mooring they will be liable to enforcement action by BW and the LPA and could be made homeless. They have to confirm their understanding that what they are doing, and paying for, is unlawful and they are at risk of enforcement action. They must do this to avoid enforcement action for not having a mooring.

I was aware of the 'relevant issues and regulations' and aware of its illegality and the risk of enforcement action. So, as I didn't want one or need one, and there weren't any, after much thought I decided I wouldn't have one.

However, the court, not being fully aware of these 'inconsistencies' because they weren't presented to the court, saw my taking a mooring, which the court was falsely assured were available, as a solution to allow me to stay on the waterways.

So, I was threatened with 'homelessness' through the seizure/theft of my boat if I didn't take such a mooring even though there were no actual existing moorings in the area.

I applied for a mooring on the towpath and offered to pay mooring fees and renew my licence. But, as you are now aware they ignored my application and stole my boat anyway because that's what they wanted to do.

Those of you living in marinas and thinking you are obeying the rules and the law, whereas those on the actual waterway are not, are mistaken.

Here is a letter from BWML to its 'customers' who live on boats in their marinas.

 

Over the last 24 months you will be aware that some local Authorities have been taking legal action against either Marina owners and/or mooring customers direct for unlawfully living on craft on moorings which do not have residential planning approval. This action has also created a reaction by some marina owners to terminate contracts with customers who are living on a non-planning approved residential mooring, and, only recently 68 customers received termination notices for this reason within a marina on the Great Ouse. All of this action is creating substantial uncertainty within the mooring industry and particularly within the customer base.

From a BWML perspective we have been aware that some of our Grade 1 customers have been taking a non-residential contract but then living on their vessel for the full 12 months, this is in breach of contract terms. To try and protect those customers who require a residential contract BWML have undertaken to be very active in persuading Local Authorities to allow residential status to be granted, and to date, we have been very successful in achieving this strategic goal which is enabling BWML to offer customers a mooring product they are obviously requiring within the market.

The pricing differential between Grade 2 and Grade 1 has always been an issue when customers utilise their berth for residential purposes. Going forward the new full planning approved residential status moorings will address this issue and develop a much fairer pricing index across all of our customer usage.

I know some of our customers who were unofficially breaching our contract terms are unhappy with the residential status direction now being applied by BWML, however neither they or BWML would have appreciated legal action being forced by the Local Authorities. BWML is therefore leading the mooring industry with residential applications and I am pleased we are achieving the customer protection, even though I am aware some of our customers would be happy to continue without changes being applied".

 

They are a law unto themselves. They force people to take moorings, for which they take money, knowing it's unlawful and pursue draconian enforcement tactics and legal action against those who are unwilling to comply with their unlawful requirements and manipulate and corrupt that process and ignore its outcome if not favourable to them.

 

 

Canal and river tyranny website.

Edited by pearlygeoff
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Sorry even at the second time of asking I am having difficulty. Could you define what you mean by leisure mooring please

 

Not sure if directly answered in the thread, bu tin the case of CRT directly managed moorings, such as those sold by auction, CRT's distinction between the two mooring types is as follows.....

 

A residential mooring is one which has planning consent from the local planning authority for use as a primary residence and is authorised for such use by BW.

 

A leisure mooring is not to be used by people intending to use their boat as their main residence.

 

That's the official line, of course.

 

Clearly when a BW moorings officer visits a "leisure" mooring where BT phone lines have been connected to several boats, permanent mailboxes set up at the gate to allow postal deliveries and bagged fuel is being delivered and stored by the tonne, they would have to be naive to realise it was not a main residence.

 

The reality in those cases I'm most familiar with is that of course they know, but thy don't actually want to know.

 

Note again: I'm talking only about CRT directly managed moorings, and specifically not about anything handled via BWML or private moorings operators.

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Sorry even at the second time of asking I am having difficulty. Could you define what you mean by leisure mooring please

Hi John

 

I do love your posts biggrin.png A leisure mooring is what it always has been. Its simple. Nowts changed for many years, a bit like cruising and moving around the system rather than extracting the urine wink.png

 

Tim

  • Greenie 3
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So if a Boater has a Leisure Mooring in a Marina and lived on the boat during the Summer. Venturing out as wanted to cruise etc. Then parked up during the Winter and buggered off to Spain or other sunny climes that would be alright? Bearing in mind that said boater does not have a UK address or pay CT!

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So if a Boater has a Leisure Mooring in a Marina and lived on the boat during the Summer. Venturing out as wanted to cruise etc. Then parked up during the Winter and buggered off to Spain or other sunny climes that would be alright? Bearing in mind that said boater does not have a UK address or pay CT!

 

Sounds good to me. Why would you pay council tax? that tax is for residential houses/moorings is it not?

 

Tim

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So if a Boater has a Leisure Mooring in a Marina and lived on the boat during the Summer. Venturing out as wanted to cruise etc. Then parked up during the Winter and buggered off to Spain or other sunny climes that would be alright? Bearing in mind that said boater does not have a UK address or pay CT!

What do you mean by 'alright'.

 

If you mean is there any rule or law against it no there isn't.

 

Not having at least a UK address for contact purposes would however bring you a whole different set of problems.

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