Replacing 4x110 amp 12 batteries

[Blazeaway]

The boat I've just purchased is fitted with 4x110 amp NUMAX batteries, about 3 years.

 

They didn't do well in the survey (discharged very quickly) and they've developed a bulge in the ends suggesting over/under charging causing sulphation and swelling.

 

So as a priority I am going to replace them. I have consulted specialist, Warwick Batteries who have advised 3 options,

 

1. - £305 cheap leisures at 110 (need maintenance)

 

2. - £377 Maintenace free leisures at 110

 

3. - £720 Semi Tractions 130 http://usbattery.com/products/12-volt-batteries/us-31dc-xc/

 

I am tempted with the 3. the semi tractions, is that wise ?

 

I also want to add a charge monitoring system, what should I look at ?

[Sabcat]

If you go for the expensive batteries then you need to look after them, you can kill them just as quickly as the expensive batteries. What you need all depends on how you use the boat.

[Blazeaway]

If you go for the expensive batteries then you need to look after them, you can kill them just as quickly as the expensive batteries. What you need all depends on how you use the boat.

 

Very true, well said, thanks for that.

 

We will be in a marina with hook initially 3-4 months then off cruising until late autumn, then lay up again in a marina over winter. All as liveaboard, just the 2 of us.

[cuthound]

As Sabcat says, you can kill cheap batteries just as quick as expensive ones.

 

However if you look after them (don't routinely discharge below 50% of capacity, promptly recharge back to 100% , keep topped up unless sealed, and give occasional equalising charges) then expensive batteries will be cheaper in the long run.

 

My boat, purchased in May last year, is over 7 years old and has the original American "Lifeline" batteries fitted. A recent discharge test at the 10 hour rate showed they still have over 50% of capacity left, so they must have been well looked after. Probably because the boat has been connected to a shoreline when not in use.

 

Basically you pays yer money and takes her choice.

[nicknorman]

I would eliminate option 2 straight away. Sealed for life just means they don't need topping up until they die, even if they die from dehydration! Modern cheapo open wet cell batteries seem to have plenty of calcium in them which means they hardly gas at all and might need topping up once a year max, unles subject to very high temperatures or overcharging (which would kill 2. anyway.

 

Personally I would go for Trojan T105s. 4 of them will give you 450AH - although they are 6v cells and so will need new interconnecting cables made up. This also means there are half as many cells to check as you existing setup. They do use a little water but it is easy to check and refill thanks to the bayonet-type caps. This will cost you perhaps £420 from one of the battery specialists such as Tayna and thus to my mind a no-brainer compared to option 2. The batteries specified in option 3 are probably better /longer lasting than the Trojans, but at a much greater cost. So the Trojans are a sort of halfway house between 1. and 3. Middle path is always good!

 

Regarding charge monitoring, the Smartgauge is the easiest to install and probably the best in terms of avoiding over-discharge. If you can stretch to it, add an amp-hour counting gauge such as a Victron BMV as well, as this will allow you to measure charge and discharge current and the theoretical state of charge, the latter figure compared with the Smartgauge reading giving you a good indication of battery health and actual capacity as the batteries age.

Edited January 27, 2015 by nicknorman

[Nickhlx]

+1 for the Trojans...

 

We have had ours for about 6 years now and they seem about as good as when we put them in ( regularly checked / topped up, Iskra 175 alternator, never discharged below around 60%, and kept on a shoreline through a Victron 12/3000/120 set to max 75% charge rate)

 

I think the US Batteries brand is about as good ...

 

Nick

[nicknorman]

I think the US Batteries brand is about as good ...

 

Nick

... But a LOT more expensive! I just looked at the weight per watt-hour and they are similar, the weight being a good guide to how much lead is in the battery. In fact the Trojans are slightly heavier per watt hour (48 watt hours per kilo for Trojans, 52 for the U.S.)

 

I think the T105s are cheap only because they are very popular for golf buggies etc, and we get the benefit of the competition and high sales volume in that market.

Edited January 27, 2015 by nicknorman

[Blazeaway]

The T105 does sound interesting, so I would replace 4 x 12v (I assume they are wired up in parallel to deliver 12 v ? Can't check as boat is miles away.) with 4 x 6 volt Trojan T105 wired in combination of Parallel/Series to get back to delivering 12v. Therefore need new interconnecting cables to achieve that yes ?

[Blazeaway]

T105's look quite a bit different physically, therefore will need to check mountings etc and especially the height.

 

Current

Length: 13” (330mm)
Width: 6 3/4” (171mm)
Height: 9 3/8” (238mm)

 

Trojan T105

Length 264 mm

Width 181 mm

Height 276 mm

[mad dog n' Englishman]

Good afternoon everyone,

I have today purchased 4x Trojan 105s from Battery mega store @ £379.99 inc delivery. If you use this code 869f9f9833 you will get 5% off the usual price of £400. Hope this helps.

Garry.

[Sea Dog]

I have 4 x 110AH bank of Squadron Energy sealed batteries, so pretty close to your set up. As it happens mine are now over 6 years old and seem fine, but I think that says as much for the usage and charging regime as for the original quality of the batteries. When the boat is unoccupied, I have a Mastervolt Combi keeping them charged with the clever(ish) patterns it does, if I'm using heavy loads I'm either on shore supply or cruising, and when on batteries only I take care load them as lightly as practicable and not to discharge below 60% as indicated by my Mastervolt moitors. I've usually moved on well before that happens, and then I make sure I do sufficient cruising that day to give them ample recharge time. I'm aware that 6 years is pretty good age for these batteries, so it's possible that I'll be making the same decision as you before too long..

 

I watch these threads and use what I read to add to my own understanding as an engineer. I'm currently sitting in the Trojan camp, as recommended above by Nick x 2 but, you know what, you can also spend lots on Tractions and probably get great service and there's also quite a lot in going the inexpensive leisure batteries as 'disposables' route too. Thing is, Trojans aren't that much more money than the leisures, so they're a pretty good compromise for the small amount of extra money from where I stand - taking into account my usage, my charging equipment and my equipment fit..

 

If your batteries will last you a little while longer, you may wish to consider seeing how you get on with them (taking into account your usage, your charging equipment and your equipment fit) before deciding what to replace them with.

[Sabcat]

I have 4 x 110AH bank of Squadron Energy sealed batteries, so pretty close to your set up. As it happens mine are now over 6 years old and seem fine, but I think that says as much for the usage and charging regime as for the original quality of the batteries. When the boat is unoccupied, I have a Mastervolt Combi keeping them charged with the clever(ish) patterns it does, if I'm using heavy loads I'm either on shore supply or cruising, and when on batteries only I take care load them as lightly as practicable and not to discharge below 60% as indicated by my Mastervolt moitors. I've usually moved on well before that happens, and then I make sure I do sufficient cruising that day to give them ample recharge time. I'm aware that 6 years is pretty good age for these batteries, so it's possible that I'll be making the same decision as you before too long..

 

I watch these threads and use what I read to add to my own understanding as an engineer. I'm currently sitting in the Trojan camp, as recommended above by Nick x 2 but, you know what, you can also spend lots on Tractions and probably get great service and there's also quite a lot in going the inexpensive leisure batteries as 'disposables' route too. Thing is, Trojans aren't that much more money than the leisures, so they're a pretty good compromise for the small amount of extra money from where I stand - taking into account my usage, my charging equipment and my equipment fit..

 

If your batteries will last you a little while longer, you may wish to consider seeing how you get on with them (taking into account your usage, your charging equipment and your equipment fit) before deciding what to replace them with.

 

I'm pretty much where you are, I've got 3 numax 110s which are 6 or maybe 7 years old. I liveaboard but the vast majority of that time is spent on shore line with a Sterling combi keeping the batteries charged and supplying my 12volt needs. When I'm cruising I move most days, the lighting is LED but I do run a 240v fridge and a 240v freezer from the inverter. I've got 3 days from the batteries before without starting. What the SOC was after that I've no idea, I've got absolutely zero way of monitoring it on this boat and as it all works I've got zero interest in fitting anything. When these batteries do inevitably die I shall replace them with the same thing again.

 

If I was going to CC or rather when I can CC then I'll need to take more of an interest in my batteries - assuming that I want to stay put for a week or two at time - In that case, which sounds like the op's situation for a good chunk of the year, presumably the warm, sunny chink. I'd look at the kind of monitoring nicknorman recommends, swap my cheap leirure batteries out for Trojans and most importantly, get a few hundred watts of solar on the roof.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Sabcat

[nicknorman]

Yes you do have to be careful when changing from leisure 110AHs to Trojans, physical size-wise. The Trojans have a smaller footprint but are a bit taller. Our battery box fitted the leisure 110AHs reasonably well, with a few mms spare in the across-battery dimension. Trojans are slightly wider and I was a bit worried, but of course the dimension specified is that of the lip at the top, whilst the majority of the battery is a few mms narrower. They are also considerably shorter length-wise, as the photo below shows. The 110s fitted without the need for any packing, but after I installed the Trojans you can see there was a big gap, which I temporarily filled with bricks (now filled with wood). As said they are taller, but not massively so.

 

T105s by nick.norman, on Flickr

 

ps if any BSS examiners are looking, the long cables are now properly secured!

Edited January 27, 2015 by nicknorman

[rogeriko]

Option 3 is incredibly expensive, for that sort of money you could buy 3 Rolls batteries with 1280 cycles to 50% DOD and a SEVEN year warranty like the RB-31HT120 http://www.windandsun.co.uk/products/Batteries/Rolls-Batteries#.VMfjbi4prWl

 

You will notice that those American leisure batteries do not publish how many cycles they are good for, In other words steer clear.

At least with the Rolls batteries you know you can run them down at least 1280 times, probably 8 years if you run them down every 2 days.

 

Most if not all leisure batteries are only good for 200/400 cycles to 50% DOD if you are lucky.

 

How about a pair of RB-S550 6v batteries at about 500Ah that should last a week!! only 248 pounds each before vat and 120 kilos in weight!

 

Edited January 27, 2015 by rogeriko

[mrsmelly]

The boat I've just purchased is fitted with 4x110 amp NUMAX batteries, about 3 years.

 

They didn't do well in the survey (discharged very quickly) and they've developed a bulge in the ends suggesting over/under charging causing sulphation and swelling.

 

So as a priority I am going to replace them. I have consulted specialist, Warwick Batteries who have advised 3 options,

 

1. - £305 cheap leisures at 110 (need maintenance)

 

2. - £377 Maintenace free leisures at 110

 

3. - £720 Semi Tractions 130 http://usbattery.com/products/12-volt-batteries/us-31dc-xc/

 

I am tempted with the 3. the semi tractions, is that wise ?

 

I also want to add a charge monitoring system, what should I look at ?

 

Its up to you. If you spend lots of money on batteries and REALY look after them then thats the best option BUT you realy do need a proper regime of maintainance throughout their life.

I personaly treat my batteries as a consumable such as diesel. I tend to fit em and keep them charged sensibly without being anal.

I am content to get two winters out of a set if not plugged in. Longer if always on shoreline. I always therefore buy cheap as poss without too much phoning round.

 

Tim

[smileypete]

You will notice that those American leisure batteries do not publish how many cycles they are good for, In other words steer clear.

At least with the Rolls batteries you know you can run them down at least 1280 times, probably 8 years if you run them down every 2 days.

 

 

Couple of things to clear up...

 

They're not 'American leisure batteries' but are semi tractions, the same as Trojan if not better.

 

The cycle life can be found by googling for: 'US Battery cycle life'

 

How about a pair of RB-S550 6v batteries at about 500Ah that should last a week!! only 248 pounds each before vat and 120 kilos in weight!

 

 

Dunno about other options, but US Battery 2200xc at £115 (Tanya) do offer more capacity and cycle life per £. So these Rolls do look like poorer value.

 

If the OP wants to go for option 3 the batts need to be charged sufficiently at the correct voltage, plus periodic equalisation charges. Perhaps Warwick Batteries will price match the online suppliers if not get fairly close.

 

Failing that option 1 is likely best, as sealed leisure batts for option 2 seem to be prone to underperforming.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited January 27, 2015 by smileypete

[Loafer]

+1 for Trojans. Had 'em two weeks now and they're brilliaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaant

[by'eck]

Limekiln Chandlers offer three 110 Ah Numax open lead/calcium batteries for £200. I'm sure they would do a pro-rata deal on four.

Edited January 27, 2015 by by'eck

[Neil Smith]

If you are considering option 3 why not go the whole hog and get full traction 2 volt cell forklift batts, I was quoted less than that for 560 amph at 5 hour rate includes all the cables from pb battery services, they probably do smaller banks as well to fit in your rack.

 

Neil

[Proper Job]

Trojan T 105's and a hydrolink watering system.

 

Job done

[trackman]

Limekiln Chandlers offer three 110 Ah Numax open lead/calcium batteries for £200. I'm sure they would do a pro-rata deal on four.

They did so for me in the past.

[Bob Blues]

I have the US2200 xc they are fantastic. Even with a broken inverter they just keep going.

When you read the blurb on the US website they say they are Deep Cycle and can go down to 5.2v (10.4v in series) Ive never taken them past 12.0 and they are nearly 4 years old. 464aph in series, parallel. Keeps my recording studio going strong.

 

Bob

[clbrof]

If you download BatteryMegastore app you can get 10% off. I just bought 4xT105 for £360 delivered.

Edited January 28, 2015 by clbrof

[Blazeaway]

If you download BatteryMegastore app you can get 10% off. I just bought 4xT105 for £360 delivered.

Nice one I shall go for that. Did they have em in stock ?

[CygnusV]

My money is absolutely on the Trojans, literally excellent. You do need to consider the care regime though. Like others we spend a lot of time on shore power. Get a smart charger! Our smart charger is a Victron Blue 24v/12a that keeps the batteries at close to 100% and acts as a power supply too. Prior to having the Victron I had a 'dumb' charger ( and 'so called' leisure/ starter batteries for the domestic bank) and checked voltages at least 3 times a day! Anal, I know. But even then battery life was not that good, about 3 years with no really serious use.

 

I'd suggest, even if your battery banks are still servicable, get a smart charger. Your existing batteries will last much longer, ( unless of course they're 'sealed', which is a rubbish idea normally anyway) but when your leisure bank does die, get a Trojan bank. For 12 volts you'll need two 105's but this will give you deep cycle 225AH, get 4 for a very usable 450AH at 12 volts. As long as you check water levels regularly - like every month, your little smart charger will tuck them up and keep them healthy. There are reports of 10 years life expectancy. I hope to report, in 10 years time, that my Trojan bank is still wearing a smile!