Identifying "Middle Northwich" boats from old photographs.

[alan_fincher]

I think you should start a new thread Alan then we could pool all our stuff in one place, I have done extensive research on these boats having to work on "Tucana" and I haven't found much, only one drawing seems to exist atm for instance.

OK then, new thread.

 

What do we reckon are the identifying features, and, if possible, can we produce images that support the identification of a feature as being "Middle Northwich".

 

My greater knowledge is of the 4 boats cut in 1942 to 40 feet and converted to ice boats, ("Sextans", "Sickle", "Theophilus", & "Tycho"). There are detailed differences in the conversion of some of these that increase your chances of identifying which, (or often "which one of two").

 

I'd give a lot for a pre 1942 picture of "Sickle", still full length, or even an pre 1957 (?) one with the ice ram still present!

 

But what about the unmodified boats? How many pre-nationalision pictures of them actually exist, for example?

[Laurence Hogg]

To my eye Alan the first thing that says "Middle Northwich" is the higher lower guard rail running full length of the hull. The second if visible is the rounded chine, this feature is rare on narrow boats and to my recollection only some of the "Royalty" motors have a similar feature and their hold depth is drastically different.

The other thing that has always caught my eye was the cabin height seemed lower in comparison to the small boats, I certainly remember this on Severn Dolphin whose cabin was almost the height of a bar stool to sit on, owning "Neptune" at the time provided the contrast.

 

As for drawings to these boats atm all that is around that I know of is the cross section drawing which is detailed but does not match perfectly to a real boat, this I found out when we were re bottoming "Tucana" recently. I will try and scan this to a res it will repro on here in due course.

[Laurence Hogg]

This is "Tycho" when laying the natural gas pipeline along the BCN new main line.

 

 

It is important too to remember why the Middle boats were built. These 8 pairs were for estuary and tidal river use but the traffics intended for them either didn't materialise or there was no crew, the latter a terrible error GUCCCo made ordering so many boats but forgetting to increase the crews. These reasons contribute to the boats in activity prior to WW2 when other uses became prevalent.

[Timleech]

To my eye Alan the first thing that says "Middle Northwich" is the higher lower guard rail running full length of the hull. The second if visible is the rounded chine, this feature is rare on narrow boats and to my recollection only some of the "Royalty" motors have a similar feature and their hold depth is drastically different.

The other thing that has always caught my eye was the cabin height seemed lower in comparison to the small boats, I certainly remember this on Severn Dolphin whose cabin was almost the height of a bar stool to sit on, owning "Neptune" at the time provided the contrast.

 

As for drawings to these boats atm all that is around that I know of is the cross section drawing which is detailed but does not match perfectly to a real boat, this I found out when we were re bottoming "Tucana" recently. I will try and scan this to a res it will repro on here in due course.

 

Some of the Cowburn & Cowpar motor boats had rounded chines.

 

Tim

[alan_fincher]

A few pictures of Taygeta.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2015 by alan_fincher

[Derek R.]

With regard to TYCHO's roof, there are a few welded over plates which indicate something has been through the roof in two locations other than the present exhaust outlet, which is central and about 6" ahead of the pigeon box. There is a published image in the Coventry Evening Telegraph (date unknown) of an ice breaker at Hawkesbury Junction which is captioned as being 1947. I have since learned through those who could identify other craft and persons at the scene, that it could not be 1947 but more probably the Winter of '61 - '62. In that shot as in one other that appeared in a Waterways World issue in the eighties taken from a bridge above the cut at Buckby Wharf, the exhaust is offset to the right close to the pigeon box. This would line up with the exhaust manifold bend off the PD3 that would have taken the pipe directly upwards. Later - no idea when - a dog leg was put in the pipe and the exhaust moved to where it comes out the roof today. (The PD3 went in in '58).

 

There is another circular plate set into the roof between the engine room slides.What this was for is unknown, as it is a full 10" in diameter.

 

Other than that I know nothing.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Derek R.

[Laurence Hogg]

Pictures of these boats working as a cargo boat are rare, however this shows Severn "Dolphin" at Tardebigge in the 50's. Her cabin is virtually as built, but note the deep counter and the probably original rear doors, the tiller looks a little odd and may not be original, following this traffic she went to the BCN.

 

 

One thing we found on Tucana when sand blasting the hull was that she had been painted battleship grey all over at some time and there was evidence of red lettering on the top bend at fore end. This livery concurs with MOWT other vehicles and machinery.

[Tony Dunkley]

Pictures of these boats working as a cargo boat are rare, however this shows Severn "Dolphin" at Tardebigge in the 50's. Her cabin is virtually as built, but note the deep counter and the probably original rear doors, the tiller looks a little odd and may not be original, following this traffic she went to the BCN.

 

 

One thing we found on Tucana when sand blasting the hull was that she had been painted battleship grey all over at some time and there was evidence of red lettering on the top bend at fore end. This livery concurs with MOWT other vehicles and machinery.

The ram's head looks like a re-worked Woolwich job rather than the standard Yarwoods pattern.

[Laurence Hogg]

Came across this in the CRT archive today, its a fresh one on me but actually refers to the MN motors by their fleet numbers:

 

http://collections.canalrivertrust.org.uk/bw58.10.13.4

 

Alongside it was this too: http://collections.canalrivertrust.org.uk/bw58.10.13.7

 

One thing these documents prove is the letter ID system was being used internally by the company.

[madcat]

Interesting .

Love the photos of Taygeta

[junior]

A few pictures of Taygeta.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great photos. How original is that cabin steelwork? I seem to recall a thread on here some time ago about which boats still had original cabins (i Think?). I also seem to remember that in the text of Tadworths advert it stated it was one of the last remaining boats with its original cabin complete.

 

Apologies if I've imagined any of that.

Edited January 26, 2015 by junior

[Laurence Hogg]

Great photos. How original is that cabin steelwork? I seem to recall a thread on here some time ago about which boats still had original cabins (i Think?). I also seem to remember that in the text of Tadworths advert it stated it was one of the last remaining boats with its original can complete.

 

Apologies if I've imagined any of that.

I knew Taygeta ("Severn Dolphin") very well, when some years ago it went to Stoke on Trent boatbuilding for repairs there was talk of removing and replacing the cabin, however it didn't happen. Compare the today pictures to the old one and you can see it is the same. Thank God she didn't remain in the SW division to get hacked about too much, the sad thing was they did very heavy repairs to the counter and sides overplating but in my opinion it adds to the character as well as the weight!

There are other original / part original cabins to be seen, "Bellatrix" is probably the best one.

 

"Tadworth" certainly retained a very original cabin in BW days except for one odd item it seemed to have a aquired an oval port in the pigeon box of the type used by Walkers, seen here in a stoppage in the early 1960's

 

Edited January 26, 2015 by Laurence Hogg

[alan_fincher]

Great photos. How original is that cabin steelwork? I seem to recall a thread on here some time ago about which boats still had original cabins (i Think?). I also seem to remember that in the text of Tadworths advert it stated it was one of the last remaining boats with its original cabin complete.

 

Apologies if I've imagined any of that.

Not sure if we ever landed a completely definitive list of boats still having original Yarwoods riveted back cabins.

 

It was something like this, but I suspect there were still a few tweaks to be made?

 

Small Northwich.

 

BELLATRIX

ERIDANUS

LACERTA

LIBRA ?

 

Middle Northwich.

 

RADIANT

TYCHO

ZODIAC

SEVERN DOLPHIN (currently named TAYGETA)

 

Large Northwich.

 

PADDINGTON

READING (currently named REDSHANK)

TADWORTH

 

non G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd

 

CYPRUS

[Laurence Hogg]

The cabin "Tucana" had when named "Zodiac" B10 and taken over by "Moving Forward" initially was 95% new and horrible, not sure when the cabin was done but it was between 1973 and 1978

[the barnacle]

if only these boats could talk - i see it has a hefty dent in the front.

[Tony Dunkley]

Willow Wren had a Middle size Northwich butty re-named Kestrel, but I can't remember what it's original name was.

[stagedamager]

Triagulum I believe.

Dan

[alan_fincher]

Willow Wren had a Middle size Northwich butty re-named Kestrel, but I can't remember what it's original name was.

 

Triagulum I believe.

Dan

Yes,

 

This is the one that has been wrongly reported in magazine articles as originally being Scales, but that is apparently not correct.

 

GUCCo Triagulum became Wyvern Shipping's Elizabeth in 1954, then Willow Wren's Kestrel in 1956.

 

The confusion seems to be that when put into use with Wyvern Shipping they needed a gauging number, and chose to use at random the one from a similar boat, namely Scales. Pete Harrison has confirmed that Scales has a very traceable history that proves conclusively that Wyvern Shipping's Elizabeth could not have been that boat, even though it carried its gauging number.

 

In the photo Elizabeth (aka Triagulum & Kestrel) is paired with Heather Bell, and the ice boat is likely Theophilus, (which, by a strange twist was purchased later, along with Sextans , by Wyvern Shipping for conversion to a hire boat, meaning that three of the Middle Northwich boats were Wyvern owned at some stage).

 

Photo copyright: Leighton Buzzard & District Archaeological & Historical Society

 

 

Further phto from Jim Payler collection:

 

Kestrel paired with Mallard at Stoke Bruerne:

 

Edited January 27, 2015 by alan_fincher

[junior]

Wouldn't it be great if some of these boats were still hire boats. I reckon there would be a market for hiring a historic boat.

[alan_fincher]

Wouldn't it be great if some of these boats were still hire boats. I reckon there would be a market for hiring a historic boat.

The Middle Northwich Ice Boat / Tug conversions that Wyvern Shipping operated were actually not very suitable hire boats.

 

Cut to just 40 feet, and only lightly ballasted, there was an awful lot of long swim, with not a lot of boat in between The bit that was in between has round chines, and a V bottom. As a result these boats roll massively more than most 40 foot long boats.

 

If multiple people step on t the same side gunwale at the same time, they are likely t be dumped off into the cut, and pots and kettles on the stove were severely at risk of sliding off an scalding someone. (The stoves had added fiddle rails, but it still really was not enough).

 

[zenataomm]

Totally Off Topic .... but while we're chuntering about Wyvern.

 

Didn't Wyvern hire out one of Worcester's sister tugs originally called Brimingham renamed as Tyburn?

So deep it couldn't get within yards of a towpath.

Consequently owned by Jim Macdonald. If I'm right (probably not, can't even remember how long I had my own boats! ) Jim bought an HA3 from The Lister stand at Earls Court Boat Show and installed it so he could go mobile welding up The Erewash. The first time he cranked it over he found no compression ..... no pistons! It was a display unit!

 

He then sold it to Mike Fox in the middle 80s, since then?... No idea .... anyone?

 

 

edited once upon a twice to turn a "fist" into a "first"

Edited August 10, 2015 by zenataomm

[pete harrison]

Totally Off Topic .... but while we're chuntering about Wyvern.

 

Didn't Wyvern hire out one of Worcester's sister tugs originally called Brimingham renamed as Tyburn?

So deep it couldn't get within yards of a towpath.

Consequently owned by Jim Macdonald. If I'm right (probably not, can't even remember how long I had my own boats! ) Jim bought an HA3 from The Lister stand at Earls Court Boat Show and installed it so he could go mobile welding up The Erewash. The first time he cranked it over he found no compression ..... no pistons! It was a display unit!

 

He then sold it to Mike Fox in the middle 80s, since then?... No idea .... anyone?

'Wyverrn' did own an Abdela and Mitchell built tug, and it was BIRMINGHAM - renamed TYBURN in 1918 when it moved to work in London. 'Wyvern' purchased TYBURN in February 1957 and in 1960 it entered their hire fleet as PERSEVERANCE. 'Wyvern' sold PERSEVERANCE in 1968 and Jim MacDonald acquired it three owners later in November 1976. The Lister HR3 was fitted in March 1978 and was reputed to be the first engine of this model to be produced, and the engine serial number certainly suggests this could be true. Mike Fox purchased this boat in July 1985 but in the late 1980's it passed to B.W.B. under a Section 8 who kept it on the bank for several years. In about 2006 the open hull of this boat became a static exhibit at Tardebigge New Wharf, and as far as I am aware this is where it remains.

[zenataomm]

Apart from thinking the engine was an HA, seems I finally got one right ... thanks Pete.

[ditchcrawler]

A rather modified Kestrel, which one I don't

[stagedamager]

Kestrel is Triagulum, sadly cabinned now but could be cut off i suppose......