GU tanks photos and sizes

[alan_fincher]

I'm having a look around for pictures for "Sickle"

 

These are not originals, and I don't think huge effort has been put into exactly replicating originals.

 

At the moment I'm only finding pictures from before I sorted the tank vents out......

 

 

 

..... ah, these are newer......

 

 

[FadeToScarlet]

Minor diameter for 5" BSP is theoretically 5.34", but I'd be surprised if it weren't 5" BSP.

 

Edit - trying to think why they bothered to make such a wide filler with a tall upstand, all I can come up with is that it makes filling manually from containers much easier.

 

Tim

Would it also make "oiling up" quicker and easier- weren't the tanks originally unvented? Or just vented into the engine 'ole?

[Timleech]

Would it also make "oiling up" quicker and easier- weren't the tanks originally unvented? Or just vented into the engine 'ole?

 

If they weren't vented there would be a risk of airlocking as the fuel was used. The vent pipes I've seen have looked original, albeit with added spider traps.

 

 

Tim

 

Edit - yes, just vented into the engine hole. There was a point where BW regs were requiring venting externally, so some were modified (including by me) but that has been relaxed for quite a long time (for historic boats at least)

Edited January 24, 2015 by Timleech

[madcat]

Boris found the magic notebook which contains dimensions and the info 5" BSP for the lids . He refused to make me a replica set when I first got the boat as it was too much work allthough well within his capabilities at the time.

 

Thankyou everybody who has added to this discussion , the photos are fascinating .

 

Tim , I wonder if it's worth doing the costings on making Northwich and Woolwich items . For the Northwich it would be replacement caps for boats who have lost theirs and the threaded upstand for people who were needing relica tanks made . I wonder what a set of new Northwich tanks would cost to have made ?

 

The tank vents in the photos are as origional and pass the Boat Safety OK . Mine have lost the turn over top but have flame traps fitted .

[madcat]

Looking at Sickle and comparing with Tycho it seems the fillers are against the front bulkhead on both tanks . Halsall and possibly Nutfield have the filler nearer the side on the Chimney side tank but against the bulkhead on the other tank . I wonder if the rest of the large Northwich boats are the same ?

 

Do Sickles lids screw on ?

 

Leo2 is correct about things feeling right to use , something well made and fit for purpose is a pleasure .

[ChimneyChain]

You can buy the vent return fittings from this place ---- http://www.cranefs.com/

 

Darren

[madcat]

Cheers Darren , I see an return bend equal in malleable iron fittings that would do the job. Would be able to pick a couple up locally I hope.

 

Utter rivet counting alert. If you compare tank vents between Sculptor and and Sickle you will see that the fittings are different , the modern ones having a raised rib round them at each end .

[Timleech]

Tim , I wonder if it's worth doing the costings on making Northwich and Woolwich items . For the Northwich it would be replacement caps for boats who have lost theirs and the threaded upstand for people who were needing relica tanks made . I wonder what a set of new Northwich tanks would cost to have made ?

 

 

You wouldn't get much change out of £100 each, for 5" BSP caps machined from solid, with a key slot in the top. Cast iron (better) or steel would be similar prices.

I doubt there would be enough demand to lead to significant economies, from eg getting blanks cast or CNC machining, or both, but could be wrong.

 

I'd be quite happy to make some for anyone not put off by that price. Materials would be over £30 for each cap, if the machining took less time than my guess then I would pass that on.

 

Tim

[madcat]

Thanks Tim . I wonder what a pair of tanks would cost to get made with proper lids and manholes and the BSP threaded bosses for the vents and balance pipe ? There's a few boats about that are missing their tanks after being cut about by BW over the years. There seems to be some serious restorations going on from time to time.

[Steve Priest]

With regard to Woolwich tanks, the overall height of the big boat tanks is the same as that of little boat ones, but the horizontal portion of a big boat tank is much deeper than a little one, with the vertical triangular part proportionately shallower. Consequently, the big boat tank holds quite a bit more diesel. The fillers and vents are as shown in Fulbourne, the fillers have a male thread which screws into an insert soldered into the tank top. The diameter of the filler is about 4'' bsp but interestingly enough little boat and big boat filler caps are not interchangeable, the big ones being very slightly bigger, the look the same, but they aren't. Woolwich vent fittings are 1'' bsp, with a 180 deg female/female return bend.

 

With regard to Northwich boats, again the horizontal portion is a lot deeper in a big tank than in a little one, but the vertical portion is a similar height in both, so they look to have a similar height in relation to the gunwhale. Again, the big tanks hold quite a bit more than the little ones. I am honestly not sure how middle boat tanks are, but I think they are similar to little ones Fillers are, I think, 5'' bsp and are a stub of pipe with a male taper thread, and a cap with a female thread in it. I have made Northwich style fillers using 4''bsp fittings, using a barrel nipple cut in half and extended with 41/2'' tube for the stub pipe, and a 4'' socket cut in half to make the caps. The vent pipes are 1'' bsp capped with two 1'' bsp wrought female /female elbows joined with a running nipple. The caps are, as Madcat says, in a different position on each side, one side by the bulkhead, the other by the side, and yes, Flamingo's tanks are original.

 

Big boat tanks, Woolwich and Northwich, were made lockable, little and middle ones weren't. The Northwiches had a hasp welded to the tank top that closed onto a tab on the cap, Woolwiches had a hinged locking bar that went across the top of the cap and closed onto a tab on the other side.

 

Big boat tanks are deeper because the engine beds are deeper and the floors fitted higher than in little boats, because the thickness of the wooden bottoms in little boats had to be allowed for, in relation to the postion of the skeg.

 

I have fitted new Northwich style tanks to the Antlia, Scorpio, and Sextans, but have only ever made one Woolwich tank, that being for the Greenock.

[Timleech]

I've just today been reminded that the tanks in the wooden Small Woolwich motor Venus had the upstand and female cap similar to the arrangement in the Northwich tanks. I seem to recall that the cap was a very deep affair, a bit reminiscent of a Fez, don't remember any locking arrangement,though it's possible I'm thinking of another boat.

 

Tim

[Steve Priest]

I have no experience of the Woolwich prototypes, so I'm afraid I don't know how the tanks were set up, but I would not expect to find the locking bar on anything but a big boat

[Derek R.]

TYCHO has this arrangement both sides. Whilst there is a hasp for locking, there was nothing on the cap with which to mate it. There may have been a flap from the other side intended to lay in the recess of the cap, but from memory no such flap was present. So it's possible the hasp was a later addition.

 

 

[roland elsdon]

Thanks Tim only place Internet search found threaded bar was American. Now I can find a UK source I'll buy two plugs and grind the top off,especially as Steve has confirmed the size. Have to wait a bit grinder and boat in UK and I'm not back until May, and postage to Australia may be an issue

By the way Thaxted had brass northwich fillers. The steel ones being in the usefull bits box don't know where they have gone in 15 years but they may be obtainable as a pattern.

[Ray T]

At 7 mins 50 secs on The Boat People which Alan F posted there is a few shots of a fuel tank on the dockside.

 

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7QSlbj23pM

Edited January 28, 2015 by Ray T

[madcat]

That's a chimney side Northwich tank, the triangular bit looks taller than mine.

 

Thanks Steve Priest for an informative post , out of interest what sort of price do you think a pair of tanks would be .

[Timleech]

With regard to Woolwich tanks, the overall height of the big boat tanks is the same as that of little boat ones, but the horizontal portion of a big boat tank is much deeper than a little one, with the vertical triangular part proportionately shallower. Consequently, the big boat tank holds quite a bit more diesel. The fillers and vents are as shown in Fulbourne, the fillers have a male thread which screws into an insert soldered into the tank top. The diameter of the filler is about 4'' bsp but interestingly enough little boat and big boat filler caps are not interchangeable, the big ones being very slightly bigger, the look the same, but they aren't. Woolwich vent fittings are 1'' bsp, with a 180 deg female/female return bend.

I've just checked the Small Woolwich tanks here, the fillers are 3½" BSP. I thought at first they must be a non-standard thread, because the internal measurement I was getting on both tanks was rather too small for that, but more careful measurement shows that the bosses are significantly oval, they are the correct size if measured at 90 degrees to my first attempt. A full diameter 3½" BSP parallel plug probably wouldn't screw in without cosiderable force.

 

Tim

[alan_fincher]

Finally I have managed to take some photos of what we have in "Flamingo" - the "Large Northwich" "Letchworth", so the same type as "Halsall", "Nutfield" and "Seaford" already pictured.

 

Sorry about any quality issues - I only had a phone, no other camera.

 

I can't easily measure anything other than the triangular shaped quarter tanks, as all "Flamingo's" floors are currently extensively bolted down, it seems.

 

The quarter tanks stand about 33.5" above the top surface of the hidden tanks under the floors. The edges that run along the length of the boat are about 19.5", whereas those that run across it slightly longer at around 20"

 

"Flamingo's" tanks are messed around with in a number of ways, including providing a raised filling point external to the cabin from the right hand tank. Also, unfortunately the original "umbrella" shaped vents have been removed. This results in my having two Yarwoods built "Northwich" boats both lacking the proper vents.

 

Right hand tank.....

 

Right hand again - am I imagining it, or does the top seem higher than in some of the other Large Northwich boats?

 

 

Left hand tank

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2015 by alan_fincher

[jake_crew]

Glad to see you're out and about again Alan.

 

[alan_fincher]

Glad to see you're out and about again Alan.

 

 

Yep,

 

If I'm careful I can even now make it into a Large Northwich engine room without a ladder!

[madcat]

Alan thank you for the tank photos , I'm pleased you are mending but go steady .

 

I'm going to make a detailed dimensioned drawing of each of my tanks when the weather warms up a bit. , it's too cold just now to loiter too long in the engine hole.

[Tim Carter]

This is the fuel tank filler cap on the Yarwoods built Royalty class motor William, it has cleaned up quite nicely, I'm pretty certain its an original feature, the only other one I've seen is in the Associated Canal Carriers motor Duke.

[ChimneyChain]

Just in case any-body whats to buy the 180 deg return bend fittings for the vents prepare yourself for a massive shock. The cheapest ones I found were £31+ pp each and the dearest was £121 + pp !!! In the end I bought 4 right angle fittings cut 3/8" of one side of all of them and welded them up then cleaned up with a finger grinder. £3.15 each in the end and they look great.

 

Darren

[FadeToScarlet]

It looks like there was something sticking out on the side of the filler cap nearest to the camera, but having been roughly cut off as the end is jagged; the remains of a sticking out part a hasp could padlock to?

[Timleech]

This is the fuel tank filler cap on the Yarwoods built Royalty class motor William, it has cleaned up quite nicely, I'm pretty certain its an original feature, the only other one I've seen is in the Associated Canal Carriers motor Duke.

 

Here is the actual tank

 

 

Just to show that the arrangement is nothing like that on the mass-produced Woolwich and Northwich boats.

There is a cylindrical top tank, visible here, filled by hand pump in the traditional manner:-

 

 

All the main production boats from Woolwich and Northwich, that I have seen, use the engine lift pump to draw fuel direct from the main tanks.

The wooden Venus, I'm fairly sure, had/has a Top tank which was continuously filled by the engine lift pump, with an overflow direct to the main tanks.

 

Nobody has mentioned the arrangements on the Walkers-built boats, I can't say I'm familiar with them

 

Going a bit off-topic, but Tim might be interested to see the pictures, the two pics above were taken when the William came in for repair in 1999 after a serious argument with a bridge on the flooded Soar.

It ended up with, as far as I can remember, most or all of the front bulkhead being renewed as well as the complete engine room casing, running through into a steel skin over the Cabin and steel gunwales. All welded, but with a nod to the original design with tubular handrails etc.

 

 

 

Tim

Edited March 21, 2015 by Timleech