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Phil Ambrose

Charlie Hebdoe

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Stop killing muslims by the thousands and they not feel the need to kill others by the dozen.

 

 

What about Muslims on (killing) Muslims. What's the excuse for that?

 

and....., Sending 10 year old children in and blowing them up.

Edited by Higgs

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The issue there though Paul is that by trying to create a hierarchy within Islamic beliefs you essentially undermine the cornerstone of the Muslim faith. This, may well be your intention which is fine, but I doubt that the followers of the faith will great it with open arms.

 

Maybe less is more, maybe if we look at Islam from a different point of view, stop using it as a way to bolster support for phoney wars and oil exploitation then the fanatics and nutters who carry out these atrocities are given less validation.

 

just out of interest and not directed at anyone in particular but I wonder where the outcry was for the Catholic Tyrant Mugabe? I fear there isn't enough oil beneath his feet to warrant a full scale brainwashing.

 

I understand that, however, you have the ayatollahs in Iran and al-Sadr in Iraq and other such people who have risen to positions of power and authority despite the dogma to the contrary. It may not be the easiest thing to achieve, but it is doable. Remember that islam is based on tribal culture so it would be possible to convince its adherents to go along with some kind of governing body as long as it was done in the context of tribal culture and traditions.

 

Remember also that all religions are a scam, and the adherents to islam are scammed in a big way to believe and do some really insane things. Just look at the Ashura ritual if you need any proof that many muslims will buy into any kind of sick crap that is thrown their way. If millions of muslims can be convinced to participate in Ashura, getting them to buy into a governing council isn't that big a leap. IMHO

 

One of the biggest problems with islam is Saudi Arabia and their support for the radical wahhabi cult. As long as the house of Saud is supported by Western powers, there's not much can be done about that problem - and the only solution to Western support for the house of Saud is to develop alternative energy so that Saudi Arabia can be told to eat sand and drink oil.

 

Stop killing muslims by the thousands and they not feel the need to kill others by the dozen.

 

While I agree with you in principle, as a Brit you are in no position to point fingers they way you are. Remember, it was Bush AND Blair!

 

When you get right down to it, at the moment most of the killing of muslims is by other muslims, although our collective war criminals are to blame for mucking up their countries to the extent that what we are seeing now was made possible.

 

The world would be a much better place if Saddam were still in power in Iraq, and if the Arab Spring never happened in Libya and Syria. Those countries are, for the largest part, tribal societies with medieval mores and they can't be governed the same way that modern societies can. I'm not saying they are any better or worse than us, just different. Modern corporatocricies like the USA wreak much more death and destruction worldwide than the most ambitious muslim fanatics ever imagined in their wildest dreams.

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What about Muslims on (killing) Muslims. What's the excuse for that?

 

and....., Sending 10 year old children in and blowing them up.

There is no excuse for it .

They send a child in with a bomb to kill , the west send in a bombs to kill with no thought to children dying be it one or hundreds ,we are not blameless.

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I understand that, however, you have the ayatollahs in Iran and al-Sadr in Iraq and other such people who have risen to positions of power and authority despite the dogma to the contrary. It may not be the easiest thing to achieve, but it is doable. Remember that islam is based on tribal culture so it would be possible to convince its adherents to go along with some kind of governing body as long as it was done in the context of tribal culture and traditions.

 

Remember also that all religions are a scam, and the adherents to islam are scammed in a big way to believe and do some really insane things. Just look at the Ashura ritual if you need any proof that many muslims will buy into any kind of sick crap that is thrown their way. If millions of muslims can be convinced to participate in Ashura, getting them to buy into a governing council isn't that big a leap. IMHO

 

One of the biggest problems with islam is Saudi Arabia and their support for the radical wahhabi cult. As long as the house of Saud is supported by Western powers, there's not much can be done about that problem - and the only solution to Western support for the house of Saud is to develop alternative energy so that Saudi Arabia can be told to eat sand and drink oil.

 

 

While I agree with you in principle, as a Brit you are in no position to point fingers they way you are. Remember, it was Bush AND Blair!

 

When you get right down to it, at the moment most of the killing of muslims is by other muslims, although our collective war criminals are to blame for mucking up their countries to the extent that what we are seeing now was made possible.

 

The world would be a much better place if Saddam were still in power in Iraq, and if the Arab Spring never happened in Libya and Syria. Those countries are, for the largest part, tribal societies with medieval mores and they can't be governed the same way that modern societies can. I'm not saying they are any better or worse than us, just different. Modern corporatocricies like the USA wreak much more death and destruction worldwide than the most ambitious muslim fanatics ever imagined in their wildest dreams.

 

 

I did name them both .

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There is no excuse for it .

They send a child in with a bomb to kill , the west send in a bombs to kill with no thought to children dying be it one or hundreds ,we are not blameless.

 

 

We aren't blameless.

 

Killing Saddam has opened a can of worms, that's for sure. He was a thug and kept hold by being a thug. It is now all out of control and are we to assume that the middle east is governable only by thugs and harsh regimes. IS are the emergent thugs there at the moment. Are they good for the region. I don't think so. Could they keep control, well, yes.

 

Where MAD stood for self distruction during the cold war, these people (IS) are mad. They will use nuclear weapons and every destructive agent they can acquire. Seeing IS destroyed is a no brainer. I would prefer to see the Muslims themselves reject IS in no uncertain terms.

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>> as a Brit you are in no position to point fingers they way you are. Remember, it was Bush AND Blair! <<

 

 

As a Brit I'm proud that more than a million of my countrymen paraded through major cities before the Iraq invasion to say 'not in my name'.

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As a Brit I'm proud that more than a million of my countrymen paraded through major cities before the Iraq invasion to say 'not in my name'.

 

And well you should be proud. I'm ashamed to say that the American public has remained notably silent about our unholy military excursions. While 1.5 million Brits gathered in Hyde Park, less than 30,000 Americans pried their dead arses from their sofas to demonstrate in Washington DC. We have the same problem on election days here, which is why we have the fascist/corporatist government we have.

 

Sadly, none of your demonstrating did any good and Blair gave Bush the cover he needed to call the invasion an "international coalition".

 

I think in both of our countries we have a political situation where our governments no longer represent the will of people, but rather simply follow the orders of their corporate sponsors. I know for a fact that's the way it is here.

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It's the way it is here too. The Tories especially but are socialist have tended to be the new Low Fat variety .

 

I was totally against the Iraq war. WMD my arse , there's worse biological weapons potential among the contents of the the fridge of the average student house.

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What about the pope then? He said today that anyone who mocks religion deserves to get punched!

 

I guess that's his justification for the long history of religious violence. The reason that religion often reacts with violence is not because it's sacrosanct, but because it has no other answer.

Edited by blackrose

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I'm not religious, but I don't see the need to draw images or joke about the god of Islam. By all means, take the pee out of those IS goats. We all know what they mostly look like, have a laugh on them and ridicule them. They may say they are followers of their religion, but who are they trying to fool. They are causing great damage to the religion they purport to follow.

Edited by Higgs

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I don't see why any set of ideas (especially bad ideas), should be exempt from criticism or ridicule simply because some people say they have a stong belief in them?

 

My view is that if you don't want to be ridiculed then you shouldn't be ridiculous.

 

Anyway, I could be wrong but I don't remember Christians killing anyone when Monty Pythons Life of Brian was in the cinemas.

Edited by blackrose
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As a Brit I'm proud that more than a million of my countrymen paraded through major cities before the Iraq invasion to say 'not in my name'.

And I'm proud to say I was one of them.

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I'm not religious, but I don't see the need to draw images or joke about the god of Islam.

So it's ok to make movies and joke about Christianity, but not Islam? The "need" is surely that it's part of our open, modern, secular European culture. People whose background is from other cultures and who decided to make Europe their home have to appreciate that, just as they appreciated the other aspects of European culture that brought them, their parents or grandparents here.

Edited by blackrose
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I don't see why any set of ideas (especially bad ideas), should be exempt from criticism or ridicule simply because some people say they have a stong belief in them?

 

My view is that if you don't want to be ridiculed then you shouldn't be ridiculous.

 

Anyway, I could be wrong but I don't remember Christians killing anyone when Monty Pythons Life of Brian was in the cinemas.

A few of my Christian mates certainly enjoyed the film. I have it on DVD and it's one of my favourites. If one can't laugh at one's self, then one has little right to laugh at others (IMHO.)

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What about the pope then? He said today that anyone who mocks religion deserves to get punched!

 

I guess that's his justification for the long history of religious violence. The reason that religion often reacts with violence is not because it's sacrosanct, but because it has no other answer.

Actually he said he would punch someone who insulted his mother

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So it's ok to make movies and joke about Christianity, but not Islam? The "need" is surely that it's part of our open, modern, secular European culture. People whose background is from other cultures and who decided to make Europe their home have to appreciate that, just as they appreciated the other aspects of European culture that brought them, their parents or grandparents here.

 

 

What is necessary, I'd have thought, is to accept that Muslims are not very good with that much self criticism. Maybe you don't, and maybe I don't see the sense in any religion, but that won't make religion go away for those that have their faith. What might be important is to find some common ground about the value of human life.

 

Having a laugh isn't necessary for the sake of it. If the moderate Muslims are continually vexed by what they see as insulting, and not all are unable to shrug it off, but it just makes it even harder for everyone to fight IS evil ideology. Perhaps getting Muslims to a point of being able to laugh with indifference is too much to expect.

 

Some of what we see as humour is very indiscriminate. There's no point in asking why shouldn't a representation of an Islamic god be up for grabs. If jokes cannot be made about IS, though, then maybe, there is a problem with people (Muslims) identifying with them as legitimately fighting a religious cause. The Muslims themselves need to be very vocal in opposing the IS.

 

I live in the same world as those with a faith, and it's possible to have the faith, but not with the violence. In that, the Muslims have no say. IS are an insult to the value of human life.

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Getting a bit tired of hearing the word islamophobia.

There is no such word as christianophobia, buddaphobia,etc. A phobia is a fear of something ,

islamophobia is not a hatred of islam as the political inept would try to have you believe..

Either stand up against islam or give in to their murdurous bullying.

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Islam? you mean the guy in lion the witch and the wardrobe, kinda looks like a lion?

why? has he been bullying you?

if I'm scared of lions does that make me islamaphobic? Removed accusation

Edited by Theo
See above

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Oh please! If Chris wrote something, it must be worth reading. This censorship is getting really tedious.

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I'm not religious, but I don't see the need to draw images or joke about the god of Islam. By all means, take the pee out of those IS goats. We all know what they mostly look like, have a laugh on them and ridicule them. They may say they are followers of their religion, but who are they trying to fool. They are causing great damage to the religion they purport to follow.

 

You have got this whole thing quite wrong. No one was making fun of the god of islam. (The fact of the matter is that the god of islam, judaism and christianity is all the same god - says so in their respective scriptures.) What was being made fun of is Mohammed, the man who called himself a prophet who invented islam.

 

Mohammed did not want the ignorant tribesmen he convinced of his idiocy to start worshiping him, as opposed to worshiping allah, so he made it a no-no to make any depiction of him. The purpose of Mohammed's rule has been perverted to make it a capital offense to make any depiction of Mohammed, and that is wherein the problem lies. Muslims have real problems with any kind of depiction of big Mo. They even come unglued at historical type movies that factually depict Mo as a sympathetic character or even a hero if Mo's is a character who is seen in the movie - he can be referenced, just not played by an actor.

 

The problem that Western countries/civilizations have with this whole concept is that we aren't going to let religious fanatics immigrate here and then tell us what we can and cannot do. If muslims want to stay in muslim countries and enforce their religious whackery there, that is one thing. However, when they move to secular Western societies and then try to get those societies to partake in their ridiculous fairy tales, they are asking too much. No one is trying to tell muslims that they can't believe in their cult dogma, but they are being told in no uncertain terms that they cannot impose their cult dogma on anyone who isn't into it.

 

Muslims telling me I can't ridicule their beliefs is no different than me telling them that they can't practice their religion. In Western democracies we have a long tradition of respecting other people's right to believe and say what they want. That means I have as much right to ridicule religion as religion has to ridicule or denounce me. What neither of us has is the right to inflict our beliefs on the other or the right to punish the other for not believing the same things. If any muslim has the right to inflict violence on any non-believer, then by the same principle non-believers have the right to exterminate muslims. Aside from the absurdity of that whole concept, muslims are outnumbered about 4.5 - 1 on this planet, so they really shouldn't be biting off more than they can chew.

 

Live and let live is a pretty good concept to live by. If someone's feelings get hurt in the process, they just need to suck it up. They certainly don't get to kill those who hurt their precious little feelings because, as previously stated, that just becomes a vicious circle.

 

ETA - if we were discussing christianity or judaism I would say exactly the same things. Almost all religions are cults and none of them have any right to impose their cult dogma on anyone who doesn't want it.

Edited by Paul G2
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You have got this whole thing quite wrong. No one was making fun of the god of islam. (The fact of the matter is that the god of islam, judaism and christianity is all the same god - says so in their respective scriptures.) What was being made fun of is Mohammed, the man who called himself a prophet who invented islam.

 

Mohammed did not want the ignorant tribesmen he convinced of his idiocy to start worshiping him, as opposed to worshiping allah, so he made it a no-no to make any depiction of him.

Live and let live is a pretty good concept to live by. If someone's feelings get hurt in the process, they just need to suck it up. They certainly don't get to kill those who hurt their precious little feelings because, as previously stated, that just becomes a vicious circle.

 

ETA - if we were discussing christianity or judaism I would say exactly the same things. Almost all religions are cults and none of them have any right to impose their cult dogma on anyone who doesn't want it.

 

 

I have to deal with oversensitive people at work. I don't necessarilly always feel like having to bite my tongue and consider every approach of contact with them, but it usually finds a path to a better relationship. The only reason to want a better relationship is that we have to live together.

 

In no way would I accept the IS violence, I don't care how precious their beliefs are. Not really interested in accommodating their gross beliefs. They are lost to reason.

 

But we're not.

Edited by Higgs

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Paul, an excellent observation, really putting the issue into context.

 

The way I see it is that elements of belief systems which were created to suit the circumstances of the time have been progressively exaggerated by the organised groups who call themselves religious leaders.

 

JC wouldn't have wanted the Inquisition representing himself, and Mohd. wouldn't have wanted IS representing himself.

 

I will only respect any religion when the majority speak out and make it clear that their belief system does not include any elements of hatred or fear, but rather that they are tolerant and loving.

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