Cill Time

[Ray T]

A strange argument.

 

A smoke alarm wouldn't have saved her either. Do we conclude that smoke alarms are useless?

 

Not at all Dave, I was attempting to illustrate why an alarm may not be of much use because of the rate a disaster may happen, that is all.

 

Never having being involved in a hang up, I should imagine one would have to have pretty quick thought and action processes to appraise and respond once a hang up process has begun.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Ray T

[dave moore]

It happened to me, once, almost 30 years ago. The Brumtug I was using had a gearbox problem and was prone to engaging stern gear without warning if left in neutral. We were on our way back down the T&M after a disastrous attempt to get to the top end of the Caldon. Just about everything had conspired against us, from weather, faulty loo valves and a body on our blades at Bedford staircase.

 

We entered the lock adjacent the Star in Stone, opened the bottom paddles and drew breath. This was Gail's second trip, hardly a seasoned boater. Looking back, I noticed that the wretched boat had engaged reverse, caught on the fill, and was nose down by about a foot. Gail was at the bottom end, having pulled the paddles up.

 

" Drop the bloody paddles!" I yelled, as soon as I realised what was happening.

 

"Don't you shout at me!!" she answered, ignorant of what was happening....I tore past her and quickly dropped both paddles, then racing to the top end to refill the lock and get the boat off. No damage was occasioned and we passed through without further problems.

 

A less experienced crew may well have been frozen by the moment and severe consequences ensued, but in that instance I'm unsure whether there would have been sufficient time to react to the proposed alarm. Things seldom go wrong when boating, but when they do it usually happens fast, in my experience.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[Sea Dog]

 

Look, some of us are having a wonderful time alternatively speculating on how to do it, and taking the p!ss.

 

Another Good Idea would be a 'sinking alarm'. This would be an excellent idea to save one having to sleep with one arm dangling out of the bed and fingertips on the floor, so one gets woken up if they get wet.

 

You all do this, like me, right?

 

 

MtB

 

Fair call Mike - I hadn't realised there were folks here who might be tempted to take the piss.

 

Actually though, you might be on to something with the sinking alarm. I use the dangly hand method of catastrophe detection but, as I understand it, there's an old trick where you immerse a sleeper's hand in a bucket of water and it induces them to wet the bed. So, when the water reaches your fingers you might just pee yourself and sleep on. That said, if you keep an electric blanket plugged in, the resulting electric shock will acivate your leg reflexes, you'll kick the missus out of bed, then she can both mop up the flood and bring you a cup of tea afterwards since she's up anyway.

[bizzard]

All this sounds like robotic self steering, vacuum cleaner technology to me. So why not just make a big one that floats. Dysoon or Who'ver would be a good name.

[MtB]

An entirely different approach to the problem would be to have a 'front doors open in a lock' alarm.

 

I suspect boats cilled in locks rarely sink when the front doors are closed.

 

Along with banning low level air vents in the front doors and bulkhead, obviously.

 

 

MtB

[DeanS]

An entirely different approach to the problem would be to have a 'front doors open in a lock' alarm.

 

I suspect boats cilled in locks rarely sink when the front doors are closed.

 

Along with banning low level air vents in the front doors and bulkhead, obviously.

 

 

MtB

 

You could have magnetic switches on the front doors. When the boat angle is such that the front doors swing open (due to gravity) the alarm can be set off

[robkg]

 

Not the same thing at all, especially for an inexperienced and nervous hirer!

I have been narrowboating for 46 years, and a boat owner for the last 21 years. I have driven a car for the past 34 years, and to date have never had an 'own fault' accident. I like to think I am reasonably responsible and careful.

Three years ago I allowed my boat to get caught on the cill whilst decending a lock. Fortunately I got away with it but still have cold shivers when I think about it.

However infallible some of you think you are to not paying attention, please think again!

If someone is experimenting with ways of reducing this risk, then please support them rather than deriding them.

[Machpoint005]

I have been narrowboating for 46 years, and a boat owner for the last 21 years. I have driven a car for the past 34 years, and to date have never had an 'own fault' accident. I like to think I am reasonably responsible and careful.

Three years ago I allowed my boat to get caught on the cill whilst decending a lock. Fortunately I got away with it but still have cold shivers when I think about it.

However infallible some of you think you are to not paying attention, please think again!

If someone is experimenting with ways of reducing this risk, then please support them rather than deriding them.

 

B*ggar me, another moment of sanity supported by facts!

[patty-ann]

I would be prepared to try out a gadget designed for safety so long as its easy to use and fit and that no real techno brain required.

[Sea Dog]

How's about CRT do some lock modifications so they only half fill before draining the water back out so we can check that the boat wasn't sinking? Then everyone will be safe, not just those who can afford fancy alarms!

 

ETA: Oh bugger, I'm heading the wrong way - back to the drawing board!

Edited January 11, 2015 by Sea Dog

[IanD]

post 149 says inter allia: "One advantage of an electronic solution (as proposed earlier) is that you can do all sorts of signal processing in software to reject false positives like temporary lengthways tilt due to water running up and down a lock, bouncing off the bottom in bridge holes, boat rocking and so on -- if you want more details, the key is to establish a signature for the event you're looking for (e.g. steadily increasing tilt) and reject those from "normal" events. You could even add a GPS sensor (cost is negligible nowadays, may even be "free" as part of position sensor module) so that the alarm is only sensitised after the boat has been essentially stationary for several seconds i.e. in a lock"

 

Looks very fancy and electronic to me

Way simpler than a £20 mobile phone, though ;-)

 

Like I said, this is the kind of thing that could easily be knocked together as a student project, in fact university electronics departments are always on the lookout for ideas for good projects...

[system 4-50]

Ok, the initial tilt alarm prototype device now exists and works on my 6ft model boat in my workshop. Now I need to do some tests on something nearer to the real thing.

1. to show that it operates when it should.

2. to show that it doesn't when it shouldn't.

 

At some point I will have to do some real cilling with a real boat but to start with I would like to simulate a cilling with a real boat ie mine. My first test needs to detect a drop/rise of 1 ft of one end of my 60ft boat happening in about 10 seconds. I wondered if I could do this by lifting the bow of my boat using a chain hoist from a suitable bridge. I don't have a great deal of experience with chain hoists so perhaps some of the more knowledgeable people on here could answer a few questions:

1. What sort of lift would be required to lift my bow by 1 ft? 1 ton? 4 tons? 10 tons? (I have an unused 1 ton chain hoist.)

2. Could the chain hoist be operated quickly enough to give the lift in the required 10 seconds? (It has to be done fairly smoothly not jerkily.)

3. Would it be difficult to find a bridge that a ) has girders of the strength required? b ) have suitable attachment points?

4. What other issues might there be, apart from the obvious ones such as passing traffic etc?

 

The benefits would appear to be easy repeatability and lower risk.

[matty40s]

Ok, the initial tilt alarm prototype device now exists and works on my 6ft model boat in my workshop. Now I need to do some tests on something nearer to the real thing.

1. to show that it operates when it should.

2. to show that it doesn't when it shouldn't.

 

At some point I will have to do some real cilling with a real boat but to start with I would like to simulate a cilling with a real boat ie mine. My first test needs to detect a drop/rise of 1 ft of one end of my 60ft boat happening in about 10 seconds. I wondered if I could do this by lifting the bow of my boat using a chain hoist from a suitable bridge. I don't have a great deal of experience with chain hoists so perhaps some of the more knowledgeable people on here could answer a few questions:

1. What sort of lift would be required to lift my bow by 1 ft? 1 ton? 4 tons? 10 tons? (I have an unused 1 ton chain hoist.)

2. Could the chain hoist be operated quickly enough to give the lift in the required 10 seconds? (It has to be done fairly smoothly not jerkily.)

3. Would it be difficult to find a bridge that a ) has girders of the strength required? b ) have suitable attachment points?

4. What other issues might there be, apart from the obvious ones such as passing traffic etc?

 

The benefits would appear to be easy repeatability and lower risk.

 

Go up the Farmers Bridge flight in Birmingham. Half way up, under the tower block there are girders with lifting blocks, installed for future use when lock gates need replacement as there is no crane access.

Worst thing that can happen is the BT tower falls over.

[colinwilks]

Ok, the initial tilt alarm prototype device now exists and works on my 6ft model boat in my workshop. Now I need to do some tests on something nearer to the real thing.

1. to show that it operates when it should.

2. to show that it doesn't when it shouldn't.

 

At some point I will have to do some real cilling with a real boat but to start with I would like to simulate a cilling with a real boat ie mine. My first test needs to detect a drop/rise of 1 ft of one end of my 60ft boat happening in about 10 seconds. I wondered if I could do this by lifting the bow of my boat using a chain hoist from a suitable bridge. I don't have a great deal of experience with chain hoists so perhaps some of the more knowledgeable people on here could answer a few questions:

1. What sort of lift would be required to lift my bow by 1 ft? 1 ton? 4 tons? 10 tons? (I have an unused 1 ton chain hoist.)

2. Could the chain hoist be operated quickly enough to give the lift in the required 10 seconds? (It has to be done fairly smoothly not jerkily.)

3. Would it be difficult to find a bridge that a ) has girders of the strength required? b ) have suitable attachment points?

4. What other issues might there be, apart from the obvious ones such as passing traffic etc?

 

The benefits would appear to be easy repeatability and lower risk.

I'm impressed and intrigued that you have got this to the working prototype stage, but not sure why you think lifting your boat with a chain hoist is less likely to damage the boat, its environment or yourself than finding a quiet lock and draining it down by a foot would be?

[system 4-50]

I'm impressed and intrigued that you have got this to the working prototype stage, but not sure why you think lifting your boat with a chain hoist is less likely to damage the boat, its environment or yourself than finding a quiet lock and draining it down by a foot would be?

The hoist guarantees a maximum tilt of 1 ft unlike a lock. A bit of sloth getting the paddle down could give more tilt than I want to risk at this stage. The draining down can't be done slowly as the test is discover if it works in the "quick" scenario.

In a lock it may be necessary to prevent the boat sliding off the cill which can create waves (which seem to have had a big effect in the Drum Major case).

[Woodsy]

I suspect using bridges or other structures in public places (with unknown SWL limits) and certainly without permission would cause a lot of grief (not to mention wailing, gnashing of teeth, tearing out hair and much pointing of fingers with waving hands in the air if anything went wrong), a much safer and controlled solution (although costly) would be to test in a dry dock.

[FadeToScarlet]

I'd be much happier deliberately cilling my boat than dangling it off chain hoists or chains, simply because there's much less risk of damage to the boat or whatever I fix the chain to falling off.

 

People here have probably done it deliberately to get at the blade- Tam and Di, George? Here's my initial thoughts on how to do it safely:

 

I'd find a lock with a nice wide cill- even a wide lock- and fold the rudder to 90 degrees and tie the boat to the topgates, then have an assistant open a paddle slowly, drop it when the skeg touches, and once it's definitely in place, open one paddle to lower the nose, dropping it immediately on a.signal like the steerer raising a hand. I'd have the crew check the well deck drains were still above water too.

 

Much safer than faffing with chains.

Edited September 15, 2015 by FadeToScarlet