Eberspacher D5WSC up to the job?

[stagedamager]

Afternoon All!

On our Butty “Ash”, our only source of heating and hot water is an Eberspacher D5WSC. It is currently running to two Single Coil 75L Calorifiers (No Immersion Boss) and Radiators up either side of the boat, Approx 60’ runs down each side and totalling 12 thermostatically radiators. These seem to go cold really quickly, approx 5 mins after the Eber switches off. The pipe runs aren’t lagged.

Now, i’m in the process of installing a Valor Willow in the Front end, to help on the long cold winter nights to take the chill off, which should help, but i can’t help but feel the Eber is slightly under Spec for this amount of equipment. Would I be wrong? Also, i need to look at a secondary source of hot water, just in case..... One thought is to add a back boiler on the stove and reposition one of the calorifiers up at the front, would this be a crazy idea, having two different calorifiers from two different heating sources on the same circuit?

Thoughts would be very appreciated!

Regards

 

Dan

 

[Colin North]

I think I would agree with you that your Eber is underpowered for the installation that you detail.

Your Eber is rated at 5kW

Your two 75L Calorifiers are probably rated at 2kW Each

You have 12 radiators - lets say they are between 0.4kW and 1kW each

 

Calorifiers =4kW + Rads (say) 6kW makes a total of 10kW. I would suggest that your Eber struggles to get the whole system warm.

 

You can get bigger Ebers - I think they do a 9kW

or you could split the system as you suggest. This also gives you some resilience in the event of a failure/diesel shortage etc.

 

Good Luck

Colin

[stagedamager]

As I thought! If it runs for 2 hrs then we get toasty warm water but an hour only gives warm water. This obviously becomes quite costly to get hot hot water and the boat warm throughout in the winter. I think I may look at splitting the system and having one calorifier off the stove. The other thing I haven't checked yet is whether the circuits for the radiators have the ability to be isolated independently from the calorifiers. Although the rads can be turned off the pipe runs I think would increase the heat loss and ultimately with no radiators on would be redundant at that time.

 

Dan

[Arthur Brown]

Seems to me that the eber isn't up to winter heat demand, either another eber in the same circuit would work so you use both in the dead of winter and only one in spring and autumn would be an option. OR for supplies resilience use a solid fuel stove with boiler, You will need oil and coal on board but not cold til both run out.

 

One thing to note;

Keep the hot water HOT or heat it to 65+C daily to pasteurise it. If you have two calorifiers than you need to bring both to temperature or there is a small risk of leigionella developing in one or both tanks if they just get "a bit warm".

[smileypete]

Afternoon All!

On our Butty “Ash”, our only source of heating and hot water is an Eberspacher D5WSC. It is currently running to two Single Coil 75L Calorifiers (No Immersion Boss) and Radiators up either side of the boat, Approx 60’ runs down each side and totalling 12 thermostatically radiators. These seem to go cold really quickly, approx 5 mins after the Eber switches off. The pipe runs aren’t lagged.

 

Worth saying that Ebers don't like rads with TRVs, or badly balanced rads, that may reduce the load too much and cause 'short cycling' which can make them less reliable.

 

As I thought! If it runs for 2 hrs then we get toasty warm water but an hour only gives warm water. This obviously becomes quite costly to get hot hot water and the boat warm throughout in the winter. I think I may look at splitting the system and having one calorifier off the stove. The other thing I haven't checked yet is whether the circuits for the radiators have the ability to be isolated independently from the calorifiers. Although the rads can be turned off the pipe runs I think would increase the heat loss and ultimately with no radiators on would be redundant at that time.

 

Came up with this for someone for heating calorifier off the engine, they seemed to be quite happy with it, would also free up the coil for use by the stove:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=55788&p=1058793

 

Combining a diesel heater and gravity backboiler into the same system is not for the faint hearted! But if you really DO want to, I did a few sample layouts (the last two) for some ideas:

 

Bear in mind they're just layouts and not a complete turn-key design. They may not be super-perfect in every way, but I doubt you can do better without things getting really complicated...

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited January 4, 2015 by smileypete

[Maffi]

Can you not isolate one of the calorifiers when you have to run the Eber.

[NMEA]

Afternoon All!

On our Butty “Ash”, our only source of heating and hot water is an Eberspacher D5WSC. It is currently running to two Single Coil 75L Calorifiers (No Immersion Boss) and Radiators up either side of the boat, Approx 60’ runs down each side and totalling 12 thermostatically radiators. These seem to go cold really quickly, approx 5 mins after the Eber switches off. The pipe runs aren’t lagged.

Now, i’m in the process of installing a Valor Willow in the Front end, to help on the long cold winter nights to take the chill off, which should help, but i can’t help but feel the Eber is slightly under Spec for this amount of equipment. Would I be wrong? Also, i need to look at a secondary source of hot water, just in case..... One thought is to add a back boiler on the stove and reposition one of the calorifiers up at the front, would this be a crazy idea, having two different calorifiers from two different heating sources on the same circuit?

Thoughts would be very appreciated!

Regards

 

Dan

 

What is the total KW of the rads? is the pipe copper or plastic? Exposed or burried? it's not surprising they go cold after 5 minutes as they will no longer be getting heat. The system, at least on the information given (and assuming each rad is over 500w) is badly designed, it certainly should not have TRVs, and absolute no no with evaporator heaters and in fact a warranty rejection point if fitted to new installs. Suggesting a replacement boiler without knowing the numbers is difficult but I would have a stab at suggesting something like a Thermo 90. The calorifiers are a bit of a Red Herring because as they start to get warm they pull less and less heat from the coolant and normally only affect radiator warm up time rather than the performance once up to temperature, (a quite long delay if the water is cold), unless you draw a bath or have a very long shower of course. A larger heater would obviously get the whole thing up to temperature faster but the first thing is to dump those TRVs.

[Arthur Brown]

AFAIK Ebers go to 10KW but up to 5kw they are much more common, the tens are rare so you end up paying dealer prices (and keeping a spare). Watch carefully what power your solid fuel stove will put out via the back boiler, be sure that it will make a worthwhile contribution for the installation effort.

 

I might look at getting a 3 - 5Kw eber just for the calorifiers and use the existing eber just for the rads (with at least one clear path through (NO TRV)).

[Sea Dog]

Eber's own report of their investigation into early failures reported in narrowboat installations makes it really clear that they respond badly to working too far within their capacity. If you retain your Eber and reduce the load on it, or replace it with a more powerful one, make sure the demand on it is commensurate with its rating and don't run it in a scenario where it short cycles. They also advise that a calorifier circuit should have a secondary circuit such as a towel rail.

 

Stagedamager, Eber also make the point that calorifier circuits (normally the first in line for heat as yours seem to be) must be properly balanced as too much flow through them will cause the system to shut down as it detects they're up to temperature and then to restart when it gets cold water from the rad circuit. This early onset of short cycling might be why you have piping hot water but cold rads after an hour, whereas my (smaller 4kw) system has heat to both pretty much from the off. It may be that adjusting the flow through your calorifier (mine has a ball valve in line set about half way) to achieve a better balanced system might be worth a try before a complete system redesign.

[stagedamager]

What is the total KW of the rads? is the pipe copper or plastic? Exposed or burried? it's not surprising they go cold after 5 minutes as they will no longer be getting heat. The system, at least on the information given (and assuming each rad is over 500w) is badly designed, it certainly should not have TRVs, and absolute no no with evaporator heaters and in fact a warranty rejection point if fitted to new installs. Suggesting a replacement boiler without knowing the numbers is difficult but I would have a stab at suggesting something like a Thermo 90. The calorifiers are a bit of a Red Herring because as they start to get warm they pull less and less heat from the coolant and normally only affect radiator warm up time rather than the performance once up to temperature, (a quite long delay if the water is cold), unless you draw a bath or have a very long shower of course. A larger heater would obviously get the whole thing up to temperature faster but the first thing is to dump those TRVs.

Hi NMEA,

By my reckoning, given equivalent rads, i have 7 at 500 x 500 single. and 4 at 1000 x 30. Calculating at just under 5.5KW. The pipework is 22mm copper, un-lagged and running along the hull at ankle height.

 

Rough sketch is here:

 

 

The feed splits at the output of the Eber. the two runs are approx 60 - 65 ft each. As yet i haven't found any isolating valves for anything, Either heating or hot and cold feeds!!

 

Regards

 

Dan

[smileypete]

Edited my post from last night to include a bit about rad balancing, that can be another reason for poor performance.

 

When the lockshield valves are properly adjusted so the rads are balanced, when all rads are on full and the heater running non stop, the return temp from each rad should be the same. A cheap IR thermometer can be handy for checking this.

 

Also worth finding out what the Eber puts out at half load, and ensuring at least this amount of rads are always fully on (ie no manual 'wheelhead' valve or TRV)

 

With the calorifiers, might be worth using a cylinder stat and 3 port valve to switch between rads and calorifier, set the stat to switch off (or back to rads) when the calorifer coil return temp is approaching the heater cut off temp, to prevent short cycling.

 

As others say if full rad output is needed while calorifier is being heated, maybe consider a seaparate 5kW heater dedicated to the calorifiers.

 

Any particular reason for the two calorifiers?

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited January 4, 2015 by smileypete

[NMEA]

Hi NMEA,

By my reckoning, given equivalent rads, i have 7 at 500 x 500 single. and 4 at 1000 x 30. Calculating at just under 5.5KW. The pipework is 22mm copper, un-lagged and running along the hull at ankle height.

 

Rough sketch is here:

 

 

The feed splits at the output of the Eber. the two runs are approx 60 - 65 ft each. As yet i haven't found any isolating valves for anything, Either heating or hot and cold feeds!!

 

Regards

 

Dan

In that case I would look at rewstricting the flow to the calorifiers and removing the TRVs, the 22mm copper is a radiator, see the link for numbers on that and if exposed helps rather than hinders, from your calculations you are at the limit of a 5.2kw heater, but that is the best place to be. Remenber that the manufacturers quoted numbers for rad output can be a bit misleading unless you understand exactly how they are arrived at and downrate them accordingly. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/copper-pipe-heat-loss-d_19.html

[stagedamager]

Thank you all,

Smiley Pete, i can only assume the two tanks was a space issue, being former hotel boats, i guess they needed the extra capacity, but couldn't get a horizontal tank big enough.

The Valor Willow is now burning away nicely, and is taking the edge of the temperature somewhat. I've switched off any radiators not needed in the hope it helps matters. I'm hoping i can find the elusive isolating valves to enable me to prioritise heating or hot water! Ho hum, the trials and tribulations of boat purchasing!!

Regards

Dan

[smileypete]

I don't think there's an easy answer here...

 

If the Eber can be run on Kerosene (28 sec oil) it may be more tolerant of short cycling.

 

A cheap counter rigged to the Eber glo plug would tell how often it's firing each day, the less the better.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/YB-06-6-Digit-Electromagnetism-Counter-No-Reset-Electric-Pulse-Counter-DC12V-24V-/381060285341

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[Robbo]

I think I would agree with you that your Eber is underpowered for the installation that you detail.

Your Eber is rated at 5kW

Your two 75L Calorifiers are probably rated at 2kW Each

You have 12 radiators - lets say they are between 0.4kW and 1kW each

 

Calorifiers =4kW + Rads (say) 6kW makes a total of 10kW. I would suggest that your Eber struggles to get the whole system warm.

 

You can get bigger Ebers - I think they do a 9kW

or you could split the system as you suggest. This also gives you some resilience in the event of a failure/diesel shortage etc.

 

Good Luck

Colin

 

You only need as big as boiler as what is required to heat the boat or hot water used, it doesn't matter if you have radiators that have more Kw output or multiple calorifiers. It's what's hot water is used or how much kw to heat your boat that counts.

 

A 5kw boiler should be more than enough for a narrowboat. A bigger Ebers would be a mistake, they like to be ran hard. If your getting cold and hot spots you need to balance your radiators better.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Robbo

[Simon D]

My experience of having just moved from a boat with a coal stove, to a boat with an eberspacher (supplying a calorifier and 3 rads) is that they both have good and bad points.

 

The 5 kw Eberspacher will heat our 50ft boat up from winter cold to toasty in about 30 minutes, but as soon as the heater shuts down the boat is cold again inside 2 hours. And keeping it running continuously is bad for the heater and costs a lot of fuel.

 

The coal stove took about 4-6 hours to heat a boat from cold, but once it was going it could be banked up to keep a comfortable background heat for days quite cheaply.

 

For me, now, the optimum is to have both types together.

 

An Eberspacher for water heating and fast response (especially now we have just fitted an SMS remote control and can switch on the heating remotely from the boat, an hour before we arrive).

 

And then a coal/wood stove for long term background space heating. But if I have a solid fuel stove I would not fit a back boiler for water. It will reduce the efficiency of the burn quite dramatically. A better and cheaper option is to go for warm air circulation. A bit of ingenuity with ducting or vents in the bulkheads, driven by quiet, low consumption computer cooling fans from Maplins (about £5.00 each and they last for years) will circulate warm air from a stove around a boat very nicely. The fans work on 12V quite happily.

 

Simon

[GUMPY]

Interesting re the remote switch on for the Eberspacher

Can you post details?

Oh and your system sounds the same as mine has been on the last two boats I've had.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Loddon

[stagedamager]

The sms system costs around 250 quid I believe. ButlerTechnik used to stock it.

[GUMPY]

The sms system costs around 250 quid I believe. ButlerTechnik used to stock it.

At that price ill pass on it!

I already have a system for home that switches the boiler on and that cost £70 but it just controls a relay that overrides the stat, unfortunately the eber aint that simple......

[stagedamager]

no, and the supposed "7 day timers" they sell, only have the 3 presets which the mini clock has and requires resetting once the program runs. What i want is a proper 7 day timer which i can program and leave and it will repeat rather than having to reset everyday. Unless i haven't got the right controller?

[GUMPY]

My seven day timer allows up to 3 programs a day and I can choose which days they run. I do however have to have the same program(s) on every day. I belive I can also set the length of run but as I haven't changed that in 2 years I would have to check the manual.

[stagedamager]

aah mine only allows a total of 3 presets, and is non repeatable, so once it has run it requires resetting to the next day. Which controller do you have?

[GUMPY]

aah mine only allows a total of 3 presets, and is non repeatable, so once it has run it requires resetting to the next day. Which controller do you have?

Its a 701 series. 2 years old you will have to check if it will work with yours. It also has diagnostics.

Sent you a pm with a link to the manual.

[stagedamager]

Cheers! Mines an easystart T . The same but subtlely different!

[Simon D]

Ref the mobile phone Remote Control for an Eberspacher. I have only had it installed a few days - but it is working really well and I am very happy with it, so I will tell you what I know, but bear in mind anything I say is "work-in-progress".

 

I first looked at the official Eberspacher "EasyStartCall" unit, which costs abouut £300. The supplier told me that my 6 year old Eberspacher D5WSC was too old to work with the EsayStartCall but that "One of our engineers suggested that a non Eberspacher gsm switch is available that will enable you to be able to control the heater remotely. As by putting a 12v feed on the yellow wire on the heater turns it on. Unfortunately we cannot really recommend or supply these but it may be worth looking at."

 

I then got some very helpful advice from the guy whom posts here as "NMEA" who put me onto this http://www.gsmgateopener.com/#!espar-gsm-remote-/c20mm

 

 

 

 

 

It is basically a remotely controlled 12v / 24v switch which can be opened or closed with a text message sent from any mobile. I think the idea started off as a remote control garage door opener, but once on the market the number of uses grew, and it is now being sold as an Eberspacher or Webasto controller. It cost me £60.00 on Ebay and took about 2 hours to fit, connecting up three wires to the Eberspacher 701 controller loom. It only took that long because I chose to add a couple of isolation switches and a red indicator LED to show when the heater unit has an "on" signal being sent to it.

 

It fits alongside the normal 701 controller. Basically an hour before I arrive at the boat I send it a text, the heater turn on, and I arrive at a warm boat. Once on the boat I then turn on the local 701 controller, and switch off the remote control, and run the eberspacher as normal. All it does is tun on and off remotely, but that simple function is very useful. The guy who runs the company, Nigel, is very helpful with his after sales advice, and I understand he is about to bring out an updated unit which allows switching on for preset time intervals, but I don't have more details.

 

Simon

Edited January 8, 2015 by Simon D